Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
So, mmh. While the actual wording of the choices say 'technique', I think it's the art that will change (how would EDD shift to movement and personal buffs? it's already that). If it does, there is talk on how to make the art help Dance being more relevant in the narrative, and one of the favorite would be a change to LW. Here is the current LW:
Lunatic Whirl said:
Lunatic Whirl: C
Duration: Persistent
Usable only while Illustrious Phantasmal Festival is active. The ghostly dancers gather around an intruder in the festival, laughing, singing and demanding a dance, forcing them to join the revelry. The dancers seize their arms and hands, dragging them through the chaotic revelry. Though the dancers will do no harm to their captive, the frenetic pace of the revelry is highly draining, and victim finds their qi dribbling away(D rank qi drain), siphoned to the user while the sights and sounds of the revel cloud their minds and steal the strength from their limbs. So long as their hands lie in the grasp of the dancers, they will also find the meridians in their arms blocked and unusable. Each usage of Lunatic Whirl may target up to three enemies, no more than six enemies may be under the effect of Lunatic Whirl at a time.
Changing it into something like this feels somewhat ideal, and amusingly it could have a change in either choices (though details would vary, this would be the IPF version):


Lunatic Whirl: C
Duration: Persistent -or- Upkeep 5
Usable only while Illustrious Phantasmal Festival is active. While under the effect of this technique, The user or a ghostly dancer whirls upon a miss by an opponment, and, upon a successful Dance contest throws the opponment on ghostly dancers demanding a dance, forcing them to join the revelry. The dancers seize their arms and hands, dragging them through the chaotic revelry. Though the dancers will do no harm to their captive, the frenetic pace of the revelry is highly draining, and victim finds their qi dribbling away(D rank qi drain), siphoned to the user while the sights and sounds of the revel cloud their minds and steal the strength from their limbs. So long as their hands lie in the grasp of the dancers, they will also find the meridians in their arms blocked and unusable.

Basically, it would be a counter-tech that can only activates on a opponment miss (either due to superior dodge or confusing Ling Qi with a dancer through IPF) and needs high Dance. However, it's basically always there as long as IPF is active, has no numbers limit and makes for a more engaging story than 'use a tech to make ghosts pounce on a guy'. It would instead be "If the opponent miss Ling Qi (and we have high dodge) and fail a Dance grapple clash, they are now caught". While 'grapple on dodge' might seem strong, it should be reminded that Zhengui already has this on two different techniques, and his is a simply clash, not 'conditional + clash'. It's actually... not that strong when you take into account that it can't be directed and PLR's quality.
 
[x] Something slow and contemplative [Empowers Illustrious Phantasmal Festival. Shifts technique focus to Area of effect, group buffs and terrain control]
 
If Ling Qi gets good enough at dancing, will her Musical Performance during CRX parties now become a Musical Dance Number?

Or will the Dance be useful when she finally Socials someone during these parties?
 
It doesn't feel right to sacrifice a part of the art to get the rest up to snuff during a "true form" reveal

Cultivation is about sacrifice though. It's been said that cultivation is about becoming more like a spirit/spirit beast and sacrificing your humanity along the way. For example, Ling Qi's already sacrificed her chance to ever peacefully retire. It doesn't make her worse, but it arguable makes her lesser by removing the choice.

Since arts are just the ways a cultivator interacts with the world in the early stages, I don't find it surprising that developing them means sacrificing some part of them.

Although I agree, I expected more from the choice to interact more with the household. But it's like it was with Ling Qiggne - we had to vote to include her in our life over and over and over for that to actually happen. So at this point I accept this as a major point of Ling Qi's character.
 
Last edited:
Cultivation is about sacrifice though. It's been said that cultivation is about becoming more like a spirit/spirit beast and sacrificing your humanity along the way. For example, Ling Qi's already sacrificed her chance to ever peacfully retire. It doesn't make her worse, but it arguable makes her lesser by removing the choice.

Since arts are just the ways a cultivator interacts with the world in the early stages, I don't find it surprising that developing them means sacrificing some part of them.

Although I agree, I expected more from the choice to interact more with the household. But it's like it was with Ling Qiggne - we had to vote to include her in our life over and over and over for that to actually happen. So at this point I accept this as a major point of Ling Qi's character.
Cultivation is specialization, but that doesn't mean every choice with two options in any context is shutting off the other door. Not even Domain choices are universally necessarily that strict! And here we're talking about choices like who to spend an evening with, not what insights to crystallize into your core being forever. Nearly every significantly older cultivator or spirit dispensing advice has told Ling Qi to experiment and broaden her foundation at this stage of her cultivation. There is such a thing as a purely additive choice, which bears no implication or obligation of opposition to another. Without diversity of experience and perspective, we have less to cut away for the future, and a narrower toolset to navigate conflicts on our path to it. We are super early in our career and at a point where we, especially as a first gen cultivator, are expected to still be feeling around and finding our footing.

In the context of PLR, the vote feels almost like a successor art vote with the expected narrowing/refining of philosophy, only without having experienced or understood the lessons of the underlying art first. There's a sense of, at this admittedly premature juncture, hollow advancement rather than the closure that "PLR's complete form" should bring. It's premature to shed perspectives from the art that haven't been understood. Further, it's definitionally incoherent for an art's "complete" form, that is remember not a successor art, to simply drop ballast rather than incorporate or contextualize it. Ling Qi's a cultivator, not an editor. I expect more not less when tripping over secret "complete" forms of arts. That "more" can be a truth that co-opts or subsumes other aspects into a minimized role, sure, but that's different from cutting themes outright.

Basically, if it turns out substantial portions of PLR were pointless smokescreen, I'm reaching through my screen and strangling Dreaming Moon's local avatar, and Ling Qi should too. It being a matter of some obtuse "personal hangup" filter embedded in the art is just barely forgivable, but hurts Sixiang's credibility since they were obviously aware of it and being lazy.
 
Last edited:
[x] Something slow and contemplative [Empowers Illustrious Phantasmal Festival. Shifts technique focus to Area of effect, group buffs and terrain control]

Wow, PLR is controversial.
 
Cultivation is specialization, but that doesn't mean every choice with two options in any context is shutting off the other door. Not even Domain choices are universally necessarily that strict! And here we're talking about choices like who to spend an evening with, not what insights to crystallize into your core being forever. Nearly every significantly older cultivator or spirit dispensing advice has told Ling Qi to experiment and broaden her foundation at this stage of her cultivation. There is such a thing as a purely additive choice, which bears no implication or obligation of opposition to another. Without diversity of experience and perspective, we have less to cut away for the future, and a narrower toolset to navigate conflicts on our path to it. We are super early in our career and at a point where we, especially as a first gen cultivator, are expected to still be feeling around and finding our footing.

In the context of PLR, the vote feels almost like a successor art vote with the expected narrowing/refining of philosophy, only without having experienced or understood the lessons of the underlying art first. There's a sense of, at this admittedly premature juncture, hollow advancement rather than the closure that "PLR's complete form" should bring. It's premature to shed perspectives from the art that haven't been understood. Further, it's definitionally incoherent for an art's "complete" form, that is remember not a successor art, to simply drop ballast rather than incorporate or contextualize it. Ling Qi's a cultivator, not an editor. I expect more not less when tripping over secret "complete" forms of arts. That "more" can be a truth that co-opts or subsumes other aspects into a minimized role, sure, but that's different from cutting themes outright.

Basically, if it turns out substantial portions of PLR were pointless smokescreen, I'm reaching through my screen and strangling Dreaming Moon's local avatar, and Ling Qi should too. It being a matter of some obtuse "personal hangup" filter embedded in the art is just barely forgivable, but hurts Sixiang's credibility since they were obviously aware of it and being lazy.

The way I see it, we have here a bit of a conflict between ToD the Game and ToD the Story.

Basically, ToD the Game required a significant change to PLR to make it as powerful as it is supposed to be. Part of this change is to establish what the art is supposed to be good at, from a mechanical perspective, and to change the techs to fit to this new focus. From a pure game perspective there is no real problem with this.

However, the ToD the Story didnt really see the problem. All it will see is a sudden change in what a previously established art can do and such changes require an in-story explanation. Here yrs used the 'congratulation, you unlocked the complete form' argument as justification. This is admittedly somewhat weak, because it comes out of nowhere from a pure story perspective and results in some questions like 'why did sixiang never tell us that we are doing it wrong?'.

In an ideal case, we would have a good in-story justification for the mechanical change. However, I dont have any idea how that would look like, so I am perfectly willing to accept a slightly handwavey in-story reason for the needed mechanical change.

Edit: But yeah, I agree that a change that is supposed to make the art more powerful and 'complete' should be more about adding features and/or streamlining existing ones than about replacing current features with other ones of roughly equal power.
 
Last edited:
The way I see it, we have here a bit of a conflict between ToD the Game and ToD the Story.

Basically, ToD the Game required a significant change to PLR to make it as powerful as it is supposed to be. Part of this change is to establish what the art is supposed to be good at, from a mechanical perspective, and to change the techs to fit to this new focus. From a pure game perspective there is no real problem with this.

However, the ToD the Story didnt really see the problem. All it will see is a sudden change in what a previously established art can do and such changes require an in-story explanation. Here yrs used the 'congratulation, you unlocked the complete form' argument as justification. This is admittedly somewhat weak, because it comes out of nowhere from a pure story perspective and results in some questions like 'why did sixiang never tell us that we are doing it wrong?'.

In an ideal case, we would have a good in-story justification for the mechanical change. However, I dont have any idea how that would look like, so I am perfectly willing to accept a slightly handwavey in-story reason for the needed mechanical change.
We never should have trusted a spirit who came to us with Water bonuses!

In all seriousness, "moon dreams nonsense" is pretty high-purity handwavium as the substance goes, so I'm not really worried about that rather than the form of the end product and its implications. Granted, story-wise PLR's barely had a presence which makes things a bit more flexible aside from the muted presence being an issue even in the context of the story as a story, given its narrative origins.
 
I really liked the update, but I am left a bit confused as to what Sixiang thought. We saw Ling Qi's view on Six' issues, and it was hinted that Six also saw Ling Qi. There was Ling Qi talking to Six about understanding them better.

However, what has Six decided? They are staying, sure, but are they going to constantly be in pain because of their newborn understanding of people? Or did they grow through the experience of sharing feels with Ling Qi, but we don't know in what direction?

Welll to summarize it into abridged version:
Ling Qi: Sixiang, be with me!
Ling Qi rolled 94 it's super effective (insert pokemon game winning music)
Sixiang: Guess I have no choice here, but how do you deal with all the fear?
Lelouch Ling Qi: Ha ha ha, it's simple! You just need to make world better place!
Sixiang: Wow! What a cool Dream, sign me up.

So, Sixiang staying and he/she going to be in pain because we didn't resolved empathy problem. Instead Six got a shared (with Ling Qi) Dream. He/She taking a list from Ling Qi book and trying to endure it, in meantime working and growing to inflict changes in real world so there would be no need for pain or fear. It's shounen logic, where so long as you have Great Dream, you can endure anything short of armageddon, be it nuclear bomb or broken heart. It's insane inhuman logic, but i guess it can work pretty well for Dreaming Moon spirits, who precisely getting their strength from dreams.
 
Last edited:
[X] Something slow and contemplative [Empowers Illustrious Phantasmal Festival. Shifts technique focus to Area of effect, group buffs and terrain control]

Festival having a better ranking and duration already make it seem the one to have most impact in improvement but it being the foundational technique and the shift being area/group focus, rather than personal like the other choice, sells if for me.
 
[x] Something slow and contemplative [Empowers Illustrious Phantasmal Festival. Shifts technique focus to Area of effect, group buffs and terrain control]
 
I did really like the Dream back and forth between Sixiang and Ling Qi, just want to put that out there. Messing around with gusts of wind and splashing water. Ling Qi up and noping one of the dream scenes they were in. It's cool seeing her more active in the Dream.

Also, rereading it a bunch of times, I think Sixiang's reaffirmation of her Muse-ness came from seeing Ling Qi's attempt with the art and it coming off as a ridiculous caricature to the real deal. We were a centering, mediating presence by playing Dream dressup so quaintly it wrapped around to awkward. Shook Sixiang right out of their sympathetic human-mimicking funk. Or maybe there's another explanation, but that's not as funny.
 
Also, rereading it a bunch of times, I think Sixiang's reaffirmation of her Muse-ness came from seeing Ling Qi's attempt with the art and it coming off as a ridiculous caricature to the real deal. We were a centering, mediating presence by playing Dream dressup so quaintly it wrapped around to awkward. Shook Sixiang right out of their sympathetic human-mimicking funk. Or maybe there's another explanation, but that's not as funny.

I think this is the best way to look at it. Six was losing their identity in a way, but seeing Qi's complete fumbling in her attempt to mimic made Six realize the differences between them and an actual human. Also I think its realizing "how blind" humans are.

Moreover I also thought the dream sequence was amazing, especially the look we got into the moons true nature/intentions. It felt very raw and direct, and I almost worried that mental damage was going to occur to Qi. I thought the constant struggle Qi had during this part was very apt. And her ability to say that ends are inevitable so solidly is really cool as it makes player choice clear in how much she has grown/changed.
 
Lots of cool stuff to unpack this time.
Ling Qi replied, crossing her arms. Her gown billowed around her as she fell, but never to the point of impropriety.
So...ankles?
The Human/Ling Qi lay on top of her new body, and they saw the bundle of muted, chemical soaked emotion emanating from them even in sleep. Possessiveness, black and cloying holding everything else together, coiled around a stubborn spine of flowing water, all contained in a cage of awkwardness and fear even now reasserting itself.
Hmm, must have embraced greed and want as a purpose back on the streets to keep going, but she was always stubborn to a fault from the start. Using Darkness Desire to control the Darkness Fear


She saw the other one, armored in anger, girded with loss. She drifted along as they both ran off, blazing with signals of hurt and desperate clinginess. Attraction warred with loneliness in the white one, the serpent daughter. This was only the latest hurt, every moment spent with Sixiang's human was a stinging wound and balm all in one.
Meizhen's pokerface and bullshit directed at Ling Qi didn't work on Sixiang. She really DID mistake what she saw, but made an admirable recovery to look like she knew from the start.

She just didn't want to be lonely no more.
Ling Qi clung to the other girl with the desperation reminiscent of the fading dreams of a shipwreck survivor, yet a thread of fear ran through it all, a sharp white line cutting through the clinging dark.

They needed each other, they hurt each other. It was beautiful in it's contrast, but something about it niggled at her, She didn't like it much at all.
Six decides they don't like pain much.
Masked it quite well too, I don't think anyone in the thread even considered what they saw of the event. Too good at playing up the vapid dilettante.
She didn't understand these humans and their world. Everything was so stiff. Fear touched everything here. No joy was unstained by by it, no determination did not keep a seed of fear at its heart. Despite that, it lent a certain something to the colors these silly, hurrying, desperate and self important creatures displayed. There was a brightness to them, a sharpness of tone and hue not present in Dream.
Contrast. To live is to fear.
Every breath comes with the dread that the next cannot come, every meal driven by hunger before enjoyment.

Without understanding the why of fear probably is a major factor to spirits not grokking mortals.
In other ways they were frustrating and dull, their revels seemed more like some kind of twisted game, where each human constructed their very best mask, and did their level best to talk past and through each other without an ounce of understanding. Like a dark nightmare revel, it was all sharp and hungry eyes and hidden fangs, ready to pounce on the weakest and tear them apart.
Ah, politics.
Goes back to the previous point, the point is to make them do what you want, not to make them understand you, especially not when understanding you better makes it harder to avoid doing what you want.
She felt a touch of something like guilt when she learned later that her actions and cajoling had gotten Ling Qi in trouble with that puppet thing that she answered too. She was not a nightmare in this incarnation, and few parts of her had been, so it was still interesting to learn these new shades of fear and regret.
Fear of disapproval, fear of loss of opinion.
Seems the empathy issue is a lot more complicated than feeling what the other party feels.

Sixiang has always done that, they just weren't really IN a social context before, the Muses' context seems to be more of an academic debate than what humans would consider empathy. Like seeing inks in shapes versus reading words.
Stripped of their body and bond to their human, Sixiang struggled, bodiless against the cold weight of a world pressing down upon them.

[Cease] The other surrounded them, engulfed them.
"Stop [struggling]."
For just a moment, Ling Qi became herself, and her head aching as it tried to process completely alien sensation. She felt Sixiang stir in her mind, adjusting the flow of their power.

Raw meaning pounded mercilessly against their being as a fragment of a fragment of the greater entities attention turned in on them, the command was like a thousand, thousand hooks digging into their core, restraining them. Their response was feeble but strident. [Negation. Cease.]
"No. YOU stop."
And apparently it feels like a DDOS attack. Ow.
Their expressed will broke upon their superior like a light breeze upon a fortress wall. [Denial. Trial.] Sixiang's whole being shuddered with the power pressed down upon them. Trial. That word encompassed uncounted years of meaning. Their greater selves were as gate and wall to those humans who chose to throw away the gifts of the [Two] and join their number as spirits. It was a kindness to break their mad ambition before they could destroy their humanity, or failing that, to prepare them for its loss. As the Second Born of [She Who Was] that duty overrode all other concerns. The weight of it crushed Sixiang, stilling even their feeble struggle. They saw their humans pain and fear, but the colour was sour and unpleasant, like excrement smeared across a finely painted canvas. The growing horror and disgust for herself growing in the fragment of Ling Qi's mind was worse.
Do take note this is the Bloody Moon's Fragment of White Spirit aspect perspective shoved through a Dreaming Muse's perspective. The Bloody Moon's particular purpose and nature colors it heavily, since we've seen Grinning, Dreaming and Hidden Moon aspects encourage and guide even as they challenge.

But still true nonetheless. You need to find which parts of your humanity you value to preserve.
Look to the Ashen Shadow Art's originator, who ceased to progress because the next step on his path was a price he was unwilling to pay.
[Contamination. Return?] The fragment of the cold will that held them down seemed almost kind, in the understanding that filtered through its will, like soft silk wrapping a clenched iron fist.

They felt the trial fading, felt Ling Qi lapsing into oblivion. [Negation. Aid… Mine] This dream was not over, it could not be.
"You're contaminated by human-ness and this hurts you greatly. Do you want to be reformatted?"
"No, this human is MINE"

Ling Qi is a greedy girl, her greed got onto Six!
They observed the gathering dully. Scores of humans all packed into a small space, talking and laughing, enjoying music and poetry, it should have been a joy to soak in, a balm for their growing fatigue, it was not. They were better versed in humanity now, though they still waved their masks about, she could see the expression in the undercurrents now. The ones taking genuine pleasure in each others presence, the joy some of the humans found in their verbal sparring, and the connections that formed despite their masks.
Friendly gathering!
If only she could say the same for Ling Qi. Whatever arts she was cultivating now, whatever she composed, Ling Qi had no intention of connecting to the people around her even a little bit. they watched their human put on a mask of frost and venom, deflecting those who tried to come near. In some they saw only anger and pricked pride, in others they saw genuine hurt as their effort to reach out was rebuffed, and gradually the colors around them curdled. They saw pride sharpen into sneers and hope fade into dull disinterest and raised guards.

They tried to offer hints and nudges, but too often they were ignored. Perhaps they could have been more forceful, but with the Nightmare still heavy on both of them, they could not find the will to do it.

Fear had taken root in Sixiang. The last thing they wanted to do was make an annoyance of themselves.
Ah...I hope Ling Qi thinks long and hard on this, her fear and caution created a self fulfilling prophecy of enmity, when courtesy was met with frost.

They had never liked this Cai Renxiang. She was the child spawn of the greater Cai, the one who had reduced the Court of Dreams to ash, and replaced Grandmothers shrines in the [First Tree] with new and foreign spirits.
...so, did Shenhua create object spirits or did she just format captured spirits into new forms?
And just what did the Court of Dreams do to incur such offense?

Too much Dreaming Moon induced decadence?
Of all the peers her Ling Qi interacted with, only Cai Renxiang was wholly opaque to her gaze. She was a statuette of reflective glass, dancing on strings. Whatever her thoughts were Sixiang could not say, whatever her hopes were, lay beyond sight.
Another one which explains much. Renxiang's social defense game is just too damned strong, Sixiang can see nothing but Shenhua's influence.

Since a Muse understands through emotions and motivations, picking up neither says "Object, Not Person"
And if, in that moment, they spied a crack in the glass, and peered at the ------- beneath, they would not say a word. Not because of the glower of the abomination the girl wore, or the threatening hiss of steel from the one at her side, but because it would be poor form to repay the one helping her Ling Qi by spilling secrets.
BUT, whatever Sixiang saw, she calls Renxiang "girl" not "spawn", "puppet", etc.
What they saw qualifies as a Person.

E: On the PLR focus shift, the mechanical side has been explained already so I'll just pick at the Narrative side.

PLR is a Dream. A shard of possibility, which offers to the one learning it the party they experienced and desire. Ling Qi didn't know WHAT she experienced or desired, until she faced the truth of Sixiang she didn't even realize that she's been trying to practice a superposition of two images becoming incoherent.

Her resolution here thus lets her 'tidy' PLR up, the art is particularly mutable because its a fragment of her own dream. What does she want more?
 
Last edited:
Welll to summarize it into abridged version:
Ling Qi: Sixiang, be with me!
Ling Qi rolled 94 it's super effective (insert pokemon game winning music)
Sixiang: Guess I have no choice here, but how do you deal with all the fear?
Lelouch Ling Qi: Ha ha ha, it's simple! You just need to make world better place!
Sixiang: Wow! What a cool Dream, sign me up.

So, Sixiang staying and he/she going to be in pain because we didn't resolved empathy problem. Instead Six got a shared (with Ling Qi) Dream. He/She taking a list from Ling Qi book and trying to endure it, in meantime working and growing to inflict changes in real world so there would be no need for pain or fear. It's shounen logic, where so long as you have Great Dream, you can endure anything short of armageddon, be it nuclear bomb or broken heart. It's insane inhuman logic, but i guess it can work pretty well for Dreaming Moon spirits, who precisely getting their strength from dreams.
I hope you're wrong about the pain part. If you're right then I can't help but feel that the thread made the wrong choice here.
 
Totally forgot that Ling Qi is constantly using wind control to not show off her legs.

You could just wear pants you know, Ling Qi.
She actually wore pants in the first scene we had with her (probably better to have pants for a street rat). She just kinda got the sect robes tho which where better quality and never went back to pants.

She seems to enjoy having those dresses and robes that cover a lot tho. Her prudishness probably plays into that.
 
Last edited:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be the in-universe optimum decision for talented members of younger clans to be pushed into production/buffing/R&D Ways, so that it creates a strong foundation for new generations to build off of?

EDIT: Assuming they know enough about the intricacies of cultivation to realize this is the best option.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be the in-universe optimum decision for talented members of younger clans to be pushed into production/buffing/R&D Ways, so that it creates a strong foundation for new generations to build off of?

EDIT: Assuming they know enough about the intricacies of cultivation to realize this is the best option.

This assumes the clan has enough combat types to fully handle spirits and spiritbeast on their territory. Also for a undeveloped barony hunting for beast cores should be fairly lucrative.

Secondly pushing some to cultivate a specific thing is likely to lead to heart demons, bottlenecks and other problems.
Instead one should encourage them and invest extra in those who are production focused.
 
[X] Something slow and contemplative [Empowers Illustrious Phantasmal Festival. Shifts technique focus to Area of effect, group buffs and terrain control]
 
[X] Something slow and contemplative [Empowers Illustrious Phantasmal Festival. Shifts technique focus to Area of effect, group buffs and terrain control]
 
So cultivators are capable of gaining skills greater then anything a mortal can accomplish.

In Ling Qi's case her musical skills with a flute are greater then anything a normal musician can perform.

But is this objectively true or subjective given that music is an art that's quality is determined by the listener?

Like if Ling Qi performs her craft for an mortal human that hates flute music with a passion will her transcendent skill change their mind. Or does the mortal still hear musical garbage?
 
Back
Top