inawarminister
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Wait, didn't Melkor get himself arrested by the other Valars, get himself chained to the Two Trees, then tricked Fëanor willingly?
Or...
Well, I guess he didn't plan that from the start.
Sauron is always more inventive.
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Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
Or...
Well, I guess he didn't plan that from the start.
Sauron is always more inventive.
- Location
- Austria
Numenor was going downhill long before that, else Sauron's words would have fallen on dead ears.
We are already living in country who are kind of people liable to listen to Sauron if he caresses our ego enough. Well, except for Faithful.
It's been too late to save Numenor from itself for about millenia, Imo
- Location
- Back in Cali
Interesting quest. Think I will play. Since I am pretty sure the vote is closed already won't put one up. Not that it matters the vote I wanted won already so I am happy. One thing we need to do is keep getting more people for our colony. We need as much Numenorean blood and lines as possible for when the island falls. We need to increase the population and see if we can add more lines from the locals. Eugenics project go make more Supermen. Constant breeding and reinforcing the Numenorean blood in those with lesser blood should make the Numenorean blood stronger over time. So long as we keep infusing more Numenorean blood into the lines to overwrite the lesser blood.
Well, not millennium, no. A bit more than 500 years ago when the reign of Tar-Ancalimon began, he could try and fix the rift between the Faithful and the King's Men, if he was so inclined. A couple of rulers after that, it was still very possible, and perhaps even now we can bring Tar-Palantir several centuries early. But, spiritually, it is in a steady decline, yes.
- Location
- Austria
Point.
Still, I...doubt we are going to change homeland's attitudes.
It's still time till Sauron enacts his plan though, so....who knows.
I am not sure "we need More Eugenics" is the morale one is supposed to get from Tolkien writing fantasy jab at British Empire....
- Location
- Back in Cali
In our world where there is no basis for eugenics yeah but in this world where there very much is a race of superior being it isn't the craziest idea. After all one of the biggest issues, the realms in exile faced was that they lacked numbers. We need to increase our numbers however we can to have a chance to maintain our power when the Island is destroyed.
- Location
- UK
@Telamon What exactly is the logic behind the Numenorean bloodline in this quest? From what I've previously understood, the Black Numenoreans who forsook the Valar actually lived shorter lives than their Faithful kinsmen. I thought that in general the longevity of the Numenorean bloodline was tied to piety, with the irony of the King's Men being that in their pursuit of immortality they lost their great longevity.
- Location
- Austria
I...don't think that literal mass colonization is going to work out for us, as opposed to bringing Word of Valar to natives.
At the very least cause Numenoreans kind of deteriorated once they went all edgy instead of Word of Valar.
Like, Numenoreans which survived the wrath of Valar were mostly Faithful who gtfo'd, IIRC. Their descendants, though less numerous, became kings of Gondor and Arnor, population of colonies be damned.
Eru...did not really fuck around when he decided that Numenoreans are a bunch of fuckwits who squandered his gifts. It's like Biblical flood: you are either Noah or fucked, and your population is not really a factor.
- Location
- Back in Cali
Only the island got destroyed. Which still had a larger proportion of their people combined with all the forces pulled from the colonies to launch their attack on the Valar. That is why there were so few left because they had been stripped in the first place and the QM hasn't given an answer on what they are using to explain the decline of their lifespans. If we have a large population and simply don't join the doomed attack we maintain our population.
Don't know much about the lore, but what kind of weapons did the Numenoreans have? Were they akin to magically enhanced Roman legions or Greek phalangites?
- Location
- Texas
The Númenoreans were the blessed, the Men of the West. Their lives stretched long, allowing them to live hundreds of years — roughly 260 years on average. The Royal Line was granted even longer life as a result of their descent from elves and gods, but they were expected to 'give up the gift' and not reign into senility — because for a Númenorean King, senility could last decades.
As time passed on, the Gift began to wane. The Shadow fell over the hearts of the Númenoreans, their spirits clouded, and even now it is beginning to leech at them. The average Númenorean lives to be ~210, and the lives of the Kings are dwindling. This makes them more desperate to find unending life, more cruel and more proud, and their lives shorten all the swifter. The last Kings of Númenor will live lifespans equal to their subjects: a mere two hundred odd years.
Yet the Faithful were preserved, it is said. Among the Lords of Andúnië, who were the ancestors of Aragorn and Elendil, descended from the royal line, they lived long centuries yet, and Elendil himself lived 300+ years. But the decline of the world touched even the Faithful: every king of Gondor and Arnor lived shorter lives than their fathers, until the last lived a mere hundred and fifty. The Númenoreans dwindled and faded with the passing of the Ages. Aragorn, the 'last of the Númenoreans', lived to be 210 — thrice the normal span of Men, the very gift which his ancestors had so squandered.
The proud Lords of Gondor loved their blood which came from Numenor. They would bicker and squabble and marry brother to cousin and sister to uncle, all to save a single drop, to keep the bloodlines pure. It won them half a decade here, a few years there, yet still they declined. The Lords of Gondor by the time of the War of the Ring live lives equal to those of mortal men.
The Dúnedain, the exiled and wandering Rangers of the North, married among the Men of Bree as they could to keep their people alive. They kept to the old ways, protected those who could not protect themselves, and kept a quiet guard over lands which hated them. From the line of the Rangers came Aragorn Elessar, last of the Númenoreans, who lived two hundred years and more.
The Gift of the Númenoreans was a blessing, and like all blessings, it can be stripped away by him who gave it.
EDIT: Voting closes this afternoon, as soon as I get home, so 4-5 hours.
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- Location
- Back in Cali
[X] Plan Royal Forge For the Last Alliance
So I'd like to make something of a last minute plea for people to reconsider their votes here.
Royal Forge for the Last Alliance is an attractive sounding plan, but I would strongly suggest thinking more if your reason for voting for it is to actually provide weapons for the Last Alliance. This is still centuries in the future, at this point, and should be far from our most immediate or even remote concern. Before we get to the Last Alliance we have countless wars against Sauron and then the persecution of the Faithful to live through, before Ar-Pharazôn's death ride to the gates of heaven. It is highly likely that if we pick this plan and prosper, we will be forced into becoming an armoury for the Kings.
To adapt a phrase coined by @Ralson, planning an armoury for the Last Alliance at this point is a little like Charlemagne deciding to stockpile trebuchets so his ancestors in the European Union will be ready for the struggle against a rising China.
Our strategic position at the "key" to Northern Middle Earth combined with our great skill at craft will make our becoming a valuable colony more or less inevitable. All our arts and our skills will be turned to making engines of war, and whilst that kind of thing may give SVers a hard-on, it will also mean we will be very much not outside the notice of the increasingly Elf-hating line of Kings. At best, our crafts may be able to barter us some slim margin of political independence, until Ar-Pharazôn arrives and we are chained to our forges for his war machine. Unless we want to try pulling off a dynastic coup, of course.
Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Playing Númenorean Pentagon Wars could actually be a pretty interesting game! But I think it's very much not what a lot of people voting here are assuming they will get.
Consequently, I will vote:
[X] Plan The Sorceress of Enedwaith
[X] Plan The Sorceress of Get The Fuck Out And Save Old Lore
[X] Plan Missionaries
11/10 best plan
[X] Plan "A Series of Unfortunate Númenorean Events"
Royal Forge for the Last Alliance is an attractive sounding plan, but I would strongly suggest thinking more if your reason for voting for it is to actually provide weapons for the Last Alliance. This is still centuries in the future, at this point, and should be far from our most immediate or even remote concern. Before we get to the Last Alliance we have countless wars against Sauron and then the persecution of the Faithful to live through, before Ar-Pharazôn's death ride to the gates of heaven. It is highly likely that if we pick this plan and prosper, we will be forced into becoming an armoury for the Kings.
To adapt a phrase coined by @Ralson, planning an armoury for the Last Alliance at this point is a little like Charlemagne deciding to stockpile trebuchets so his ancestors in the European Union will be ready for the struggle against a rising China.
Our strategic position at the "key" to Northern Middle Earth combined with our great skill at craft will make our becoming a valuable colony more or less inevitable. All our arts and our skills will be turned to making engines of war, and whilst that kind of thing may give SVers a hard-on, it will also mean we will be very much not outside the notice of the increasingly Elf-hating line of Kings. At best, our crafts may be able to barter us some slim margin of political independence, until Ar-Pharazôn arrives and we are chained to our forges for his war machine. Unless we want to try pulling off a dynastic coup, of course.
Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Playing Númenorean Pentagon Wars could actually be a pretty interesting game! But I think it's very much not what a lot of people voting here are assuming they will get.
Consequently, I will vote:
[X] Plan The Sorceress of Enedwaith
[X] Plan The Sorceress of Get The Fuck Out And Save Old Lore
[X] Plan Missionaries
11/10 best plan
[X] Plan "A Series of Unfortunate Númenorean Events"
- Location
- United Kingdom
Personally, it wasn't even a consideration for me.
I voted for it because it's one of the two locations I wanted, has the Guild that I hoped for as a backer and while I might find 'The Lord' as a background quite an interesting prospect a 'Shaper' could be a lot of fun. Oh, and the name is exactly what I'd have picked.
The name of the plan really means very little in all honesty. I'm sure of the 20 odd people voting for this plan there are at least a dozen different directions people want to go once the colony is founded.
- Location
- Back in Cali
I voted for it not so we could arm the last alliance but so we could collect and amass as much knowledge, skills, artifacts, and infrastructure for when the Island is destroyed. I voted for it because it has the best chance of building something that can last and maintain the power that was lost in the canon TL.
It is accurate in the sense that it is the plan that most strongly predisposes us to become a royal forge, whilst of course nothing is ever set in stone.
The reason I made my post is because it seems like a lot of the voters here would like us to:
(1) Stay out of the Númenorean cultural rift and subsequent religious pogrom as much as possible.
(2) Preserve as much of the crafts and knowledge of Númenor at its best as possible.
Becoming an extremely productive fortress-manufactory at a key strategic site is not going to get us the first one, and it will get us some but not all of the second one. We will not be able to stay out, because other people will ensure we cannot stay out. We can absolutely preserve a lot of craft, perhaps even push it to new heights, but always skewed towards warfare and the domination of others, a symptom of moral sickness for Tolkien.
Trying to pursue lore and artistry for their own sake or the friendship of Elves, or avoid the enslavement of the indigenous peoples of Middle Earth, will be a constant struggle.
The reason I made my post is because it seems like a lot of the voters here would like us to:
(1) Stay out of the Númenorean cultural rift and subsequent religious pogrom as much as possible.
(2) Preserve as much of the crafts and knowledge of Númenor at its best as possible.
Becoming an extremely productive fortress-manufactory at a key strategic site is not going to get us the first one, and it will get us some but not all of the second one. We will not be able to stay out, because other people will ensure we cannot stay out. We can absolutely preserve a lot of craft, perhaps even push it to new heights, but always skewed towards warfare and the domination of others, a symptom of moral sickness for Tolkien.
Trying to pursue lore and artistry for their own sake or the friendship of Elves, or avoid the enslavement of the indigenous peoples of Middle Earth, will be a constant struggle.
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- Location
- Back in Cali
Yeah no duh things aren't going to go how we think it is called random dice but this is our best chance at it so why wouldn't I vote for I don't care for any of the other plans so I won't be voting for those in my choices either.
- Location
- Austria
Nah, the point is that blessing of Numenor was for their deeds, and when it falls due to Eru being pissed, well. Things will not go well.
Another, more pertinent point, is that Numenor lost it's way - in search for easy answers, they basically arrived to the state where difference between them and Sauron wrt behaviour was...not that large. And given that their Thing was due to blessing of Eru on Three Houses of Men after First Age, this did not do them any favors. They went into decline and decadence long before the fall. And if we pick a faction which is entangled with King - which is literally every faction aside from Faithful, and even they are ehhh - we are going to follow them, no matter the distance to homeland. Lore we preserve will be more about optimal ways to build pyramids of slave skulls in Hope's of it granting King couple more years (because Shapers) or whatever. Late Numenor was fucked up.
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This is a good reason.
Now, it should be said that the Dwarves of Khazad-Dhum are noted Elf friends. We will probably be able to get along fine with them in the early years, and I suspect that if we are willing to work hard towards it, may be able to maintain a relationship in later years. But it may become more difficult over time, and cause political issues. Still, that could be interesting to work through.
There are also dwarves in the Blue Mountains, although their humble halls are nothing to rival the glories of Khazad-Dum. The journey to Durin's Halls across Eriador from near Lond Daer is possible but not easy, although potentially one might find a navigable route most of the way up Swanfleet.
Our choices aren't purely random, and Royal Forge probably does not give the best chance of preserving all of our heritage. For what you want, Plan The Sorceress of Get The Fuck Out And Save Old Lore is more or less designed for the purpose.
To explain, if we want to preserve as much of the knowledge of past glories as possible, then as broad a possible a focus is better. With Plan Royal Forge, we risk becoming a mighty armoury with impregnable walls and great wheels and forges, but spiritually hollowing over the centuries. Artistry and learning practiced for its own sake are important in Tolkien. The Númenoreans built unbreakable towers, ships swifter than the wind, and unerring engines of death in their latter years, and this was a symptom of their deep moral sickness, because all the fruits of their genius had turned to dominating others.
If we want to become a hidden refuge of lost wisdom and great works, then we want a strong broad focus in both crafts and lore, and to stay on the periphery of the King's attention for as long as possible. In all honesty, it will not be easy.
Enthusiast#117
This is not the Profile you are looking for
- Location
- United States
[X] Plan The Sorceress of Get The Fuck Out And Save Old Lore
-[X] Minhiriath
-[X] The Faithful
-[X] Belenor
-[X] Female
-[X] The Shaper
-[X] Phazân, the Royal-Blooded
-[X] Sapthân, the Wise
Basically, we know that everything's about to go nuts, there's no chance we're going to be able to withstand attention from the truly big players with a mere few hundred years of prep, and Minhiriath is explicitly the low-attention option.
-[X] Minhiriath
-[X] The Faithful
-[X] Belenor
-[X] Female
-[X] The Shaper
-[X] Phazân, the Royal-Blooded
-[X] Sapthân, the Wise
Basically, we know that everything's about to go nuts, there's no chance we're going to be able to withstand attention from the truly big players with a mere few hundred years of prep, and Minhiriath is explicitly the low-attention option.
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