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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
Yes and no. The rebate was never ment to pay for everything. It was designed to cover the tithe and a maybe a bit more.
The idea behind my formula is that the trust will never pay for everything to prevent negative upkeep. We went a bit crazy as the option turned up for us...
[X] Plan Rebate Change
-[X] Vote for Aelfric Plan
-[X] Propose Grovernor Rotbarts rebate change from last HC
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Says you. I personally always seen rebate as an important way to bring more resources back to our economy, and since linear formula that gives us more resources the more soldiers we send gives us a good incentive to send those soldiers, Security Council seemingly agrees.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
1. a few decades
2. a decent amount
1. no
2. yes
luck and numbers
no, that is in effect a 10% drop rather then a 25% drop
1. yes
3. yes
4. maybe
[X] Plan Minor Favors v2
Subsidizing Avernus makes sense for the same reason that subsidizing fortress worlds made sense in the Imperium.
We don't have the luxury of size or stellar geography to let us funnel enemies towards specific fortress worlds the way the Imperium did, but we do have a horrible place to live which can create soldiers such that its PDF are more skilled than the elites from every world except Jotunheim. Paying to produce more of those troops makes sense.
I've argued before that in pure economic terms it would make more sense for the Trust to raise less troops elsewhere and spend the resources that would have been spent on them on more Avernite troops. We could certainly produce more soldiers if we had the funds. There'd be a decline in quality, but even just shipping out our militia with no further investment would be better than most troops in the Trust. The rebate was a sort of watered down version of that. Negative upkeep pays for raising more soldiers. Sort of like a layaway program in that the money is paid in over time for an eventual payout. Most of our resources go directly or indirectly to making more and better troops.
I thought the point of it was to subsidize Avernus producing incredible elites by living on such a hellworld that most sane people regard being sent there as equivalent to a death sentence.
Subsidizing Avernus makes sense for the same reason that subsidizing fortress worlds made sense in the Imperium.
We don't have the luxury of size or stellar geography to let us funnel enemies towards specific fortress worlds the way the Imperium did, but we do have a horrible place to live which can create soldiers such that its PDF are more skilled than the elites from every world except Jotunheim. Paying to produce more of those troops makes sense.
I've argued before that in pure economic terms it would make more sense for the Trust to raise less troops elsewhere and spend the resources that would have been spent on them on more Avernite troops. We could certainly produce more soldiers if we had the funds. There'd be a decline in quality, but even just shipping out our militia with no further investment would be better than most troops in the Trust. The rebate was a sort of watered down version of that. Negative upkeep pays for raising more soldiers. Sort of like a layaway program in that the money is paid in over time for an eventual payout. Most of our resources go directly or indirectly to making more and better troops.
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Well, no, not really. Our militia is at the same skill level as Midgard's guardsmen, so it's really not worth it to ship them anywhere or invest in them more before doing that with Midgard's Guard.
Don't really see how, unless you make it so the needed skill for our current rebate is much higher than Helguard's. Which would be pretty meaningless, as Helguard is already one of the best pure human units in the galaxy, if not the best.
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- Location
- UK
What I meant was that for elite units like Helltroopers and the Helguard, there would always be net positive income thanks to the rebate. However, for weaker troops, like Midgard's PDF, the rebate might only cover about half the cost or whatever.
This would mean that there would always be an incentive to recruit and train elite troops, prioritising them over chaff.
So: inferior troops would operate at a loss of income, good troops like the Avernite PDF would break even, and really elite troops like the Helguard would run at a profit to incentivise training more of them.
Then I guess it already exists, in a way, because Security Council simply doesn't request any non-elite units, thus they don't get any rebate.
- Location
- UK
They still request regular PDF, and there isn't any varying scale of rebate. While some units may be the elite of other worlds, they pale compared to the units of Avernus and to an extent Jotunheim. Under my proposal the rebate for the Midguard PDF would be lower than for the Avernite PDF, for instance, reflecting the different level of skill and effectiveness between the two.
A multi tier system is a Bad idea. Some will always shave under it.
Would you please explain (again) how your proposal would not generate resentment?
- Location
- UK
It would incentivise having more elite troops, who would in turn do a better job of protecting the Imperial Trust and its member worlds.
Given that it would be tied to their skill and effectiveness, it wouldn't present a hard barrier either: as the troops from different worlds were trained or equipped to a higher level, the amount they got from the rebate would rise, further incentivising that more be recruited.
If there were concerns about some kind of snowball effect where one or a few worlds had larger and larger rebates and more elite militaries, there could also be some kind of rebate or subsidy for projects aimed at improving the quality of a world's troops, like the Djinn Skein Gladiatoria.
In terms of the costs incurred, if less elite and expensive forces have a smaller rebate than larger ones, then that should still lead to a reduction in the total expenditure on the rebate, given that the majority of tithed Imperial Trust forces are regular PDF. This would allow worlds like Vanaheim more breathing room to further develop their economies.
I could go on, but I think that the premise you're working on is a bit flawed. Obviously we want good relations with our allies, but some annoyance is worth it if it means that the military power of the Trust will ultimately be improved, and if its overall chance of survival will increase.
Edit: Furthermore, it's already being argued that the tithe should be reduced because individual worlds are capable of supporting their own militaries more. Having them at a lower tier of rebate wouldn't be a drastic change from what was already planned - elite units would simply be the exception.
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They don't request any (non-Avernus) PDF over what is tithed automatically, so they don't pay any rebate for those units.
- Location
- UK
Yes, but PDF units are still tithed automatically. I'm saying that the rebate for elites should be higher than it is for those tithed regular PDF units.
You're right of course, but that doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating nonetheless. If there was perhaps a bit less egoism, we could be in a position where the Trust would be capable of fielding a far larger force of elite troops.
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There isn't any rebate for an automatically tithed PDF units, that's what I'm saying.
- Location
- UK
Well, forgive my error in that regards then, but I don't see how that alters the core idea I put forward. Elite Guardsmen from Midgard are equalled in skill by the militia of Avernus, and dwarfed in skill by Helltroopers and Helguard. Hence, under my proposal, they would have a higher proportional rebate to further incentivise their recruitment and expansion, as well as continued improvements to their training and equipment. Were Midgard's elites to rise to a higher standard, then their rebate would also increase.
If I am to read your previous comment literally, and there is no rebate for units that are tithed ordinarily, then that should perhaps change in the case of elite troops. Ordinary troops would not receive a rebate, but elites would, again to reward and incentivise the investment required to recruit, train, and equip them.
- Location
- Lowton
[X] Plan Minor Favors v2
-[X] Vote for Aelfric Plan
-[X] Abstain on second vote
-[X] Propose use minor favor to trade xenotech from the Eldar for the Sirens can use. This will than be used to trade for True Rune of Purification foci to help in curing Guilliman.
-[X] Vote for Aelfric Plan
-[X] Abstain on second vote
-[X] Propose use minor favor to trade xenotech from the Eldar for the Sirens can use. This will than be used to trade for True Rune of Purification foci to help in curing Guilliman.
- Location
- Back in Cali
No they are not the militia is the same as regular guardsmen. The Elites from Midgard have the highest skills not counting weapons and gear of all the normal troops in the Trust. They also make up the majority of the Imperial Trust Guard units, to begin with. You seem to be pushing the false idea that all of our troops are just plain better than all the other that isn't true. In fact, every time expand the skill of our units keeps going down. Only the fact that we kit out our troops with some of the best and most expensive gear possible is what is puts our troops in such a high position.
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Isn't the Deathworlder bonus unique to Avernus, which nearly doubles our effectiveness with a +85 (at least, assuming my understanding that every 100 points in combat is a doubling of overall effectiveness which I think is the case, but I'm not 100% on)? While we also have the Juve-nat bonus that goes from 47 on the militia to 142 on the helguard, which is also something only Avernus has.
Do we actually know the skill level of the other troops? The closest thing to something that lists it I can find is the Military Stats threadmark/WIP and the skill multiplier on that sheet has the only Midgardian thing listed with a 4.96 while the avernite pdf has 15.28. Indeed the skill multiplier for the Midgardian Infantry is lower than anything else listed not airforce/artillery/AA.