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A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

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Kipeci said:
This kind of reminds me of what Chiang Kai-Shek did to get rid of warlords. He'd declare an area to be festering with communists and demand the warlord leave the area while the army swept it. The warlord would be out of the area and then they'd be away from their power base, or else become an obstacle to the government. As it turns out, a warlord without an army became fairly easy to demote...
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BurningLaugh said:
I feel like you just want us to keep killing each other.
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I thought that's a given? Everyone is a warlord at this point. Yes the Tong too.

That said, I don't think anyone within the Qing have enough political muscle to pull that stunt yet. Then again, the voters did keep this civil war somewhat "civil" since no one is sending out assassins against each other.
 
I should say, I'm happy either way. If Qing is becoming strong and that talk about staying a governor of the Northeast in exchange for a bloodless joining & a fight against Japan is plausible... OK, I'd be fine with biting up Korea as a Qing understudy!

If Qing is weak and seems liable to collapse... I have no problem with absorbing remnants and modernizing them in a standard expansionist way.

Your choices decide which option seems better.
 
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Kipeci said:
I'm just pointing out problems in the plans I'm seeing, as I've done the whole time I've been here. Obviously the war plans are also pretty bad, I don't think Xueliang can take on both Zhang Xun and Wu but that plan relies on invading your territory to connect the two exclaves. By pointing out bad spots, we can have better plans and avoid some of the worse reading experiences where everyone has a disaster.
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Yep it's officials you would have to be the greatest non-Qing player here.
 
VoidZero said:
I thought that's a given? Everyone is a warlord at this point. Yes the Tong too.

That said, I don't think anyone within the Qing have enough political muscle to pull that stunt yet. Then again, the voters did keep this civil war somewhat "civil" since no one is sending out assassins against each other.
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you're given them ideas.
 
Inserted tally

Edit: Looks like Big-Eared Du and Xueliang have the most votes right now.
Adhoc vote count started by Kipeci on Mar 15, 2019 at 12:19 AM, finished with 200 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X] Liao Zhongkai
    - [X] Plan Blue Star
    - [x] Zhang Zongchang: Han Warlord, former bandit, "Basest Warlord in China", and leader of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo.
    - [x] Plan: Crime Pays?
    [X] Cai Yuanpei
    -[X] Plan Black Flag
    [X] Du "Big-Eared Du" Yuesheng: Han mob boss who has a controlling interest in Zhuhai and worked with elements of the Republicans. Ties with elements of the Chinese Revolutionary Party (Kemingtang).
    [X] Du "Big-Eared Du" Yuesheng
    [X] Prince Chun: Manchu Prince, father of the Qing Emperor. Prime Minister of the Qing.
    - [X] Plan: Don't let the good times end!
    [X] Zhang Xun
    -[X] Plan: The Dragon's Claw
    [X] Zhang Xueliang
    -[X] Plan Imperial Court
    [X] Zhang Xueliang
    -[X] Plan Imperial Court
    --[X] More soldiers through recruitment campaign. Cite good salary and benefits.
    --[X] Invest in enclaves infrastructures, and use this opportunity to have industry experts help with industrial planning (IE reorganize the factories to improve general efficiency).
    --[X] Expand the college(s) even more, add a sizeable but simple medical branch with foreign hires.
    --[X] Encourage the industrialists to invest in the factories and produce more advance products. Radios, trains, and trucks will have very high demand.
    --[X] Roll out the procured and produced equipment to the military with help of German advisors. More machine guns, field cannons, and radios. Outdated stuff will be sold at minor profit.
    --[X] Attend the imperial court in person and bring the unfair treatment of Xueliang by Marshal Wu to the attention of the emperor. Xueliang will make it clear that he have no ambition in high politics and just want to keep the displaced Manchurian people happy. Point to the productive working relationship with the Prime Minister years past and stress that Xueliang did not discriminate. (Leave sealed order with Xu Shichang that the clique will swear allegiance to the Emperor should Xueliang gets killed.)
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I do find it interesting how me making a play IC that was done by nations the world over to protect their economy from predatory economies and to protect their own industry is being seen as the evil one here.

I will meet in Beijing and will defend my position and right to protect the nascaent industry of the Zhili as is his right to protect his own industry. I will sail north from Nanjing likely.
 
Kipeci said:
I'm curious to hear how eager your fellows in Qing would be to adhere to these. Especially since I think Wu would not like the blind eye on crime in his territory/undercutting of the tariffs/now probable blockade, nor the Young Marshal for his claims to be quit.

What do y'all think about this?
@Mortenkam @VoidZero @ZealousThoughts

Though I imagine that the prospect of immediate war is a bit high priority.
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BurningLaugh said:
Current Proposals:
1. The occasional blind eye from the Qing authorities on your activities that occur in Qing territory (as long as they aren't too drastic).
2. The occasional "un-official support" from certain Qing factions for your activities and projects
3. A safe haven for if circumstances turn dire and the Soviets, Japanese, or rebels are knocking on your door
4. The purchase of your goods and services for Qing occasionally
5. Once the inevitable war with Japan occurs and ends, you'll be given membership with the Imperial Court and elevated to the rank of Marshall as you govern Manchukuo and most likely the Japanese controlled lands of Manchukuo and Korea.

Though if you have suggestions or requirements then I would be happy to hear them
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Well, since this is a list of benefits for Zhang Zongchang, then I am unsure what we would get in return, but the only one on the list I find controversial is point 5.

First, because I am unsure if it requires Zongchang to fight against the Japanese during the war. If it does, then I would be more willing to give such a big reward.

Second, even if Zongchang fight on our side, then rewarding him with both Manchukuo and Korean seems like a lot.

Third, in the long run I/prince Chun plans to get rid off independent warlords and create a proper centralized state. I am unsure of the time table of this, since there might be more important things to deal with first, like the people who are rebelling against Qing. I might suggest granting Zongchang a large personal fief and some sort of honorary position, so he would not do anything against my long term plans, but I would be willing to allow him to continue being a warlord for at least some time.
BurningLaugh said:
@Mortenkam
We're gonna take a big hit from this.
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Yeah, personally I would a peaceful solution.
BurningLaugh said:
@Mortenkam would you be willing to change your plan from Prince Chun to Wu and stop the tariffs or exercise your imperial power to cancel the taxes
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VoidZero said:
[X] Zhang Xueliang
-[X] Plan Imperial Court
--[X] More soldiers through recruitment campaign. Cite good salary and benefits.
--[X] Invest in enclaves infrastructures, and use this opportunity to have industry experts help with industrial planning (IE reorganize the factories to improve general efficiency).
--[X] Expand the college(s) even more, add a sizeable but simple medical branch with foreign hires.
--[X] Encourage the industrialists to invest in the factories and produce more advance products. Radios, trains, and trucks will have very high demand.
--[X] Roll out the procured and produced equipment to the military with help of German advisors. More machine guns, field cannons, and radios. Outdated stuff will be sold at minor profit.
--[X] Attend the imperial court in person and bring the unfair treatment of Xueliang by Marshal Wu to the attention of the emperor. Xueliang will make it clear that he have no ambition in high politics and just want to keep the displaced Manchurian people happy. Point to the productive working relationship with the Prime Minister years past and stress that Xueliang did not discriminate. (Leave sealed order with Xu Shichang that the clique will swear allegiance to the Emperor should Xueliang gets killed.)
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Settling this at the Imperial Court would likely be the best idea.
ZealousThoughts said:
I do find it interesting how me making a play IC that was done by nations the world over to protect their economy from predatory economies and to protect their own industry is being seen as the evil one here.

I will meet in Beijing and will defend my position and right to protect the nascaent industry of the Zhili as is his right to protect his own industry. I will sail north from Nanjing likely.
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The problem would be, that you both are supposed to pretend to be the same nation.
 
[X] Prince Chun: Manchu Prince, father of the Qing Emperor. Prime Minister of the Qing.
- [X] Plan: Don't let the good times end!
 
Mortenkam said:
Well, since this is a list of benefits for Zhang Zongchang, then I am unsure what we would get in return, but the only one on the list I find controversial is point 5.

First, because I am unsure if it requires Zongchang to fight against the Japanese during the war. If it does, then I would be more willing to give such a big reward.

Second, even if Zongchang fight on our side, then rewarding him with both Manchukuo and Korean seems like a lot.

Third, in the long run I/prince Chun plans to get rid off independent warlords and create a proper centralized state. I am unsure of the time table of this, since there might be more important things to deal with first, like the people who are rebelling against Qing. I might suggest granting Zongchang a large personal fief and some sort of honorary position, so he would not do anything against my long term plans, but I would be willing to allow him to continue being a warlord for at least some time.

Yeah, personally I would a peaceful solution.


Settling this at the Imperial Court would likely be the best idea.

The problem would be, that you both are supposed to pretend to be the same nation.
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States within a nation with full domestic autonomy. But I have revealed my position and views on the matter. Focusing efforts in two small enclaves on the Japanese border is folly and the Clique wanted to assault another Clique just for the chance to get to Wu.
 
Huh. Looks like crisis in the Qing got semi-solved.

As for me, I'm still thinking on how to word adding a new...uh...industry into the Tong expansion.

Anyways, anyone interested in a Rhine Capitalist China!

Then vote Du Yuesheng!

Yes! Du! Yue! Sheng!
 
So I went and changed point 4 into being about the meeting instead of trying to deal with Mongolia.

[] Prince Chun: Manchu Prince, father of the Qing Emperor. Prime Minister of the Qing.
-[] Plan: Don't let the good times end!​

  1. Prince Chun will attempt to put together a relief force to help the Xinjiang Triumvirate deal with the rebellion.
  2. Prince Chun will attempt to attract both foreign investment and expertise to speed up industrialization.
  3. Prince Chun will attempt to support a general industrialization of Qing with a focus on the machine tool industry and other forms of industry that will make the establishing of new industry both easier and better.
  4. Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. There will be two main topics of the meeting, the first topic will be about how to handle the new rebellion. The second topic will be about the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.
  5. Prince Chun will attempt to improve and standardizing the public education system with a focus on giving as many children as reasonably possibly a basic education in reading, writing and math, but also a healthy dose of cultural and historical education that supports rule of the Qing empire.
  6. Prince Chun will attempt to secure a permanent supply of the material aide, that Alexander von Falkenhausen pointed out that the new Imperial army of Qing was lacking, while ensuring that the army had a proper logistical system in place.
 
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Mortenkam said:
So I went and changed point 4 into being about the meeting instead of trying to deal with Mongolia.

[X] Prince Chun: Manchu Prince, father of the Qing Emperor. Prime Minister of the Qing.
- [X] Plan: Don't let the good times end!
4. Prince Chun will organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to settle the dispute between Wu Peifu and Zhang Xueliang. This will include stopping any behavior, that is damaging for the Qing empire, like trying to strangle important industrial areas or refusing to sell military equipment to certain members of the imperial army.​
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I believe it would be better if you word it like this: Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. The main topic of the meeting will be the centralizing of Qing, the official integration of factions in Qing, and the official arrangements of ranks and authority.
 
BurningLaugh said:
I believe it would be better if you word it like this: Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. The main topic of the meeting will be the centralizing of Qing, the official integration of factions in Qing, and the official arrangements of ranks and authority.
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My biggest problem with this is, that I am not sure that the warlords would be that happy discussing the loss of their autonomy, else the actions sounds interesting enough.
 
BurningLaugh said:
I trust you to properly word it
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What do you think of this?:

Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. The main topic of the meeting will be the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.
 
Mortenkam said:
What do you think of this?:

Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. The main topic of the meeting will be the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.
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Perfect
 
Mortenkam said:
What do you think of this?:

Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. The main topic of the meeting will be the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.
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Out of curiosity, how do the directly controlled armies of Qing compare to those of the major warlords?
 
Mortenkam said:
What do you think of this?:

Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. The main topic of the meeting will be the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.
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May want to add a line to point out there's an active war zone and the empire would need work together on this. Gives your administration and the Emperor an immediate goal to focus on and covertly make the warlords answer to the Emperor. Good PR too.

Kipeci said:
Out of curiosity, how do the directly controlled armies of Qing compare to those of the major warlords?
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There are the Royal guard and newly formed city garrisons, but the ratio is heavily against the central government. Around 1-4 i'm guessing?
 
VoidZero said:
May want to add a line to point out there's an active war zone and the empire would need work together on this. Gives your administration and the Emperor an immediate goal to focus on and covertly make the warlords answer to the Emperor. Good PR too.



There are the Royal guard and newly formed city garrisons, but the ratio is heavily against the central government. Around 1-4 i'm guessing?
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Hm. There may be an interesting answer found for who answers to whom, in that case.
 
VoidZero said:
May want to add a line to point out there's an active war zone and the empire would need work together on this. Gives your administration and the Emperor an immediate goal to focus on and covertly make the warlords answer to the Emperor. Good PR too.
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You may be right, that sounds like a nice thing to add.
VoidZero said:
There are the Royal guard and newly formed city garrisons, but the ratio is heavily against the central government. Around 1-4 i'm guessing?
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I think the 1 to 4 ration is a bit harsh on the central government.
Dadarian said:
Prince Chun raised an army for each province (ranging from 5k to 15k depending on population density)
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DanBaque said:
And the 70,000 to 210,000 strong Garrisons under Prince Chun. And it isn't half, Dadarians said it doubled, so it should be full.
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The newly raised imperial army is likely somewhere between 70,000 to 210,000 strong, plus 2,000 Imperial Guardsmen.
Dadarian said:
CiC: The Emperor
- Imperial Guard: Prince Chun - 1,000 elites (1/2 division), 10 artillery pieces
Minister of War: Li Yuanhong

Northeast Defense Command (Red Banner): Zhang Xueliang - 75,000 regulars (roughly 3 divisions), 150 artillery pieces, 10,000 horses.
- Military Governor of Jehol Enclaves: Zhang Xueliang - same as above.
-- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Type 30s, Mosin-Nagant, Maxims and Type 3s (limited numbers).

East Command (Blue Banner): Wu Peifu - 80,000 regulars (roughly 6 divisions), 100 artillery pieces, 6,000 horses.
- Military Governor of Zhili: Wu Peifu - 30,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions), 50 artillery pieces, 2,500 horses.
- Military Governor of Anhui: Duan Qirui - 20,000 regulars (roughly 1 division), 20 artillery pieces, 1,500 horses.
- Military Governor of Hebei: Zhang Xun - 20,000 regulars (roughly 1 division) & 10,000 conscripts, 20 artillery pieces, 1,000 horses.
- Military Governor of Chahar: Fang Zhenwu - 10,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions) & 15,000 conscripts, 10 artillery pieces, 1,000 horses.
-- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Maxims (limited numbers).

Northwest Command (Green Banner): NO COMMANDER - 15,000 regulars (roughly 3 divisions), 10 artillery pieces, 2,500 horses.
- Military Governor of Xinjiang: Yang Zhengxin - 5,000 regulars (roughly 1 division) & 15,000 conscripts, 5 artillery pieces, 2,000 horses.
- Military Governor of Qinghai: Ma Fuxiang - 10,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions) & 5,000 conscripts, 5 artillery pieces, 500 horses.
-- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Maxims (extremely limited numbers)
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Here we got the 1925 overview of Qings military structure and numbers.
Mortenkam said:
I got inspired by @DanBaque and decided to make a more detailed overview of the armies, that also showed quality of the men.​
@Dadarian By the way, what quality the support troops C-KMT has and when you write horses, is that the just the numbers of horses a army has or is it the number cavalrymen?

-Qing:
Elite: 1 = 1,000 men
Regulars: 75+80+15= 170,000 men
Conscripts: 25+20= 45,000 men
Total: 1+170+45= 216,000 men

Horses: 10+6+2.5= 18,500
Artillery: 10+150+100+10=270 pieces​
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I will use my old accounting of the Qings forces and add Wu's new force of 20,000 men
Qing without the (real) Imperial army :

Regulars: 75+80+15+20= 190,000 men
Conscripts: 25+20= 45,000 men
Total: 170+45= 235,000 men

So we got around 235,000 men vs. around 72,000 to 212,000 men​
 
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