A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

[VoidZero]

I think the 1 to 4 ration is a bit harsh on the central government.

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Yes it's harsh, but considering your responsibility is far bigger than warlords. Banditry had been a problem in the past and road connection across the landmass is spotty, so i think it will be a constant problem to put the army into a single front. Warlords on the other hand have to less to govern with higher army concentration, so~~~~~

Of course now that Zhang Xun seems to be leaning closer to central government, the equation will change.

6. Attend the Imperial Meeting hosted by Prince Chun. Bring about two trusted friends to serve as bodyguards for myself. Once at the meeting bring up the clearly displayed problem of the warlords having too much autonomy, and advocate for a centralization of Qing with the establishment of a military council. Argue for a dissolution of Zhang Xueliang's and Wu Peifu's cliques and integrate them into Qing and the Imperial Army, while also promoting Wu has the official Marshal of the East and Grand Admirable and Zhang Xueliang as Marshal of the Northeast and either governor of Jehol Province or the Special Plenipotentiary of Industry.

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What an interesting line, what's the mechanism for making sure either the Tiger or Jade doesn't use their intact core to infect the imperial army? Like officers and troops will push their favored person as the best person ever, and no you can't just tell them to shut up. Also Jehol clique doesn't actually control Jehol province and if google is correct Jehol province is very big.

 

[Mortenkam]

Yes it's harsh, but considering your responsibility is far bigger than warlords. Banditry had been a problem in the past and road connection across the landmass is spotty, so i think it will be a constant problem to put the army into a single front. Warlords on the other hand have to less to govern with higher army concentration, so~~~~~

Of course now that Zhang Xun seems to be leaning closer to central government, the equation will change.

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True, we do have a much larger land area to take care of.

By the way, does this sound like what you were thinking about?:

Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. There will be two main topics of the meeting, the first topic will be about how to handle the new rebellion. The second topic will be about the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.

What an interesting line, what's the mechanism for making sure either the Tiger or Jade doesn't use their intact core to infect the imperial army? Like officers and troops will push their favored person as the best person ever, and no you can't just tell them to shut up. Also Jehol clique doesn't actually control Jehol province and if google is correct Jehol province is very big.

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You are likely right in that this might be a problem, as things are right now, I got a decent idea about whom are loyal to whom. Also, I think that on paper everybody is part of the Imperial Army anyway.

 

[BurningLaugh]

What an interesting line, what's the mechanism for making sure either the Tiger or Jade doesn't use their intact core to infect the imperial army? Like officers and troops will push their favored person as the best person ever, and no you can't just tell them to shut up. Also Jehol clique doesn't actually control Jehol province and if google is correct Jehol province is very big.

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You are likely right in that this might be a problem, as things are right now, I got a decent idea about whom are loyal to whom. Also, I think that on paper everybody is part of the Imperial Army anyway.

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yeah I intended to fix and change that part of the plan.

 

[VoidZero]

Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. There will be two main topics of the meeting, the first topic will be about how to handle the new rebellion. The second topic will be about the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.

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I would suggest turning the 2nd topic into "make the court work together to breakdown internal trade barriers and improve inter province trade." The reason is twofold, the PM being neutral in the matter of clique fights and laying down rails (methodical and literal) to increase the power of central government. The more responsive the central army, the less leeway warlords have with doing random stuff; since no one wants to have a full power imperial army parked in their front lawn.

 

[Mortenkam]

I would suggest turning the 2nd topic into "make the court work together to breakdown internal trade barriers and improve inter province trade." The reason is twofold, the PM being neutral in the matter of clique fights and laying down rails (methodical and literal) to increase the power of central government. The more responsive the central army, the less leeway warlords have with doing random stuff; since no one wants to have a full power imperial army parked in their front lawn.

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So this?:

Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. There will be two main topics of the meeting, the first topic will be about how to handle the new rebellion. The second topic will be about making the court work together to breakdown internal trade barriers and improve inter province trade.

 

[ZealousThoughts]

Wu is not interested in a meeting aimed at empowering the Jehol.

If it is meant to be just empowering Jehol to overwhelm other provinces and stunt their domestic industries there is little he has to say to it.

 

[VoidZero]

So this?:

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Yes.

Something for future ideas, in early days Zuolin was big on training and educating the army & people. The reason for that is the people selected to be educated have built-in favor to Zuolin because direct upgrade to social economic status. Educated have much more respect to government because they now know the danger of unstable government, which is both a plus in more productivity and malus in being able to think about alternate ideas. The officer training is also because the newly minted officers will be loyal by default (to the person trained them mind you. There is a reason young tiger was put on that assignment.), and those pulled from the army to train or undergo training have their connection to their loyal underling and network severed.

 

[BurningLaugh]

Wu is not interested in a meeting aimed at empowering the Jehol.

If it is meant to be just empowering Jehol to overwhelm other provinces and stunt their domestic industries there is little he has to say to it.

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the meeting is not to simply discuss the little rivalry between Zhang and Wu, and the meeting is to reach a fair and understandable in game decision rather than simply empower and weaken one of the cliques

 

[ZealousThoughts]

the meeting is not to simply discuss the little rivalry between Zhang and Wu, and the meeting is to reach a fair and understandable in game decision rather than simply empower and weaken one of the cliques

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Indeed and the original wording was fine before Void pushed it to be instead be mainly about breaking down any tariffs or trade barriers which stop Jehol dominating all internal markets and stunting any other internal industrial growth.

Fine with its previous wordings, not interested if it is all about this removing and ending any protectionist measures. It is the 1920s protectionism is king.

 

[VoidZero]

Indeed and the original wording was fine before Void pushed it to be instead be mainly about breaking down any tariffs or trade barriers which stop Jehol dominating all internal markets and stunting any other internal industrial growth.

Fine with its previous wordings, not interested if it is all about this removing and ending any protectionist measures. It is the 1920s protectionism is king.

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And here you have declared to the entire thread that you wanted to dominate the Qing trade yourself. A cookie for your honesty.

 

[Mortenkam]

Indeed and the original wording was fine before Void pushed it to be instead be mainly about breaking down any tariffs or trade barriers which stop Jehol dominating all internal markets and stunting any other internal industrial growth.

Fine with its previous wordings, not interested if it is all about this removing and ending any protectionist measures. It is the 1920s protectionism is king.

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So I went and changed point 4 into being about the meeting instead of trying to deal with Mongolia.

[X] Prince Chun: Manchu Prince, father of the Qing Emperor. Prime Minister of the Qing.
- [X] Plan: Don't let the good times end!​

1. Prince Chun will attempt to put together a relief force to help the Xinjiang Triumvirate deal with the rebellion.
   
2. Prince Chun will attempt to attract both foreign investment and expertise to speed up industrialization.
3. Prince Chun will attempt to support a general industrialization of Qing with a focus on the machine tool industry and other forms of industry that will make the establishing of new industry both easier and better.
4. Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. There will be two main topics of the meeting, the first topic will be about how to handle the new rebellion. The second topic will be about the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom.
   
5. Prince Chun will attempt to improve and standardizing the public education system with a focus on giving as many children as reasonably possibly a basic education in reading, writing and math, but also a healthy dose of cultural and historical education that supports rule of the Qing empire.
6. Prince Chun will attempt to secure a permanent supply of the material aide, that Alexander von Falkenhausen pointed out that the new Imperial army of Qing was lacking, while ensuring that the army had a proper logistical system in place.

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Fine, then I will use the original one or what do you guys think @BurningLaugh and @ThatGuyWithIdeas?

 

[BurningLaugh]

Fine, then I will use the original one or what do you guys think @BurningLaugh and @ThatGuyWithIdeas?

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I approve of it.

 

[Mortenkam]

I approve of it.

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Which version?

 

[ZealousThoughts]

And here you have declared to the entire thread that you wanted to dominate the Qing trade yourself. A cookie for your honesty.

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No, you see I cannot. I am not a highly developed producer that can muscle out the new industry due to having a pre developed industrial base.

The only entity with that ability and starting advantage is Jehol as it has a much higher developed base and as proven by something as simple as discouraging raw goods going north and making their goods less competitive priced the whole shebang nearly collapsed.

Jehol is effectively sitting as the Tic feeding from all of China yet needing all of China to survive.

I am happy to go the original meeting but not one tailored to fulfill your preferences.

 

[BurningLaugh]

"Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. There will be two main topics of the meeting, the first topic will be about how to handle the new rebellion. The second topic will be about the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom."

I support this version

 

[Mortenkam]

"Prince Chun organize a meeting at the Imperial Court to address the current status and situation of Qing. The meeting will serve to connect the Emperor with the other members of court by hearing and discussing current issues and plans for Qing now and in the future. There will be two main topics of the meeting, the first topic will be about how to handle the new rebellion. The second topic will be about the harmonizing of Qing, making sure that the different groups work together for our goal of restoring China to former glory and that there is a proper understanding of whom answer to whom."

I support this version

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Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ZealousThoughts]

Thanks for the clarification.

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I am also happy to meet under that version.

 

[BurningLaugh]

[X] Zhang Xun
-[X] Plan: The Dragon's Claw

1. Using the resources of the Manchu Restoration Movement and whatever the fellow Qing can provide, initiate the formation and creation of a domestic group tasked with the protection of Qing's inner territories called: The Dragon's Claw. The Dragon's Claw will consist of devoted loyalists, intellectuals, and veterans, while also creating youth groups that seek to train and educate the youth and willing citizens of Qing China on practical skills and the values that all Imperial Citizens should uphold: Daoism, Confucianism, and Legalism. These groups will protect the home front as virtues of self-sacrifice for the greater good, diligence, and heroism are instilled in them as they are taught about the noble history of the Qing.

2. Dragon's Claw will increase efforts to better the lives of the people of Qing by spreading propaganda with the support of Xu Shichang to promote unity and loyalty among the people of Qing to prevent foreign partisans from taking root. This propaganda will focus on the fact that China has always included the 5 people that call it home, and how it was these five people that united into one eastern empire that was the envy of the life; it will also focus on the nature of the Emperor's rule as he is the divine mandate of heaven and earning his favor is the respect and appreciation of the celestial beings.

3. Use more propaganda with Xu Shichang to emphasize the fact that "Women Hold Up Half The Sky" and "Every Citizen Has A Place and Purpose" in Qing to encourage women alongside people to enter the work-fields and sign up to join the Dragon's Claw.

4. The Dragon's Claw will use accumulated support and the resources allocated to it to initiate a massive labor/work incentive by promoting and aiding in massive industrialization and westernization of secured Qing land primarily those outside of the Tiger's and Jade's Control. The Dragon's Claw will focus primarily on bettering the infrastructure of Qing and by building more domestic and civil buildings to better the lives and security of both the Urban and Rural populations.

5. Use personal resources to establish contacts with the Basest Warlord of Manchukuo for the hiring of White Russian Mercenaries to help train the Dragon's Claw; instilling discipline, military tactics, and the likes into the members of the Dragon's Claw to better equip and prepare them. Also use the females of the White Russian Mercenaries to teach the Dragon's Claw about medicinal techniques to better field-aid and healthcare in Qing.

6. Attend the Imperial Meeting hosted by Prince Chun. Bring about two trusted friends to serve as bodyguards for myself. Once at the meeting retain a pragmatic stance on the issues while remaining supportive of Prince Chun. Support attempts to centralize the Qing Dynasty while also mentioning the growing rivalry between the two Marshalls. Seek to properly begin integration of the different warlords and cliques, while also suggesting possible negotiations with the Basest Warlord and how he could be used to assist the Mongolian Situation.

 

[VoidZero]

No, you see I cannot. I am not a highly developed producer that can muscle out the new industry due to having a pre developed industrial base.

The only entity with that ability and starting advantage is Jehol as it has a much higher developed base and as proven by something as simple as discouraging raw goods going north and making their goods less competitive priced the whole shebang nearly collapsed.

Jehol is effectively sitting as the Tic feeding from all of China yet needing all of China to survive.

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No, you see i cannot. I am not big enough to produce all i need internally nor can i consume all that i produce.

The only entity with the ability to do both is Wu clique who had been hoarding many foreign and internal experts within Wu land. The clique that had been rather stand-off in working with the central government.

 

[ZealousThoughts]

No, you see i cannot. I am not big enough to produce all i need internally nor can i consume all that i produce.

The only entity with the ability to do both is Wu clique who had been hoarding many foreign and internal experts within Wu land. The clique that had been rather stand-off in working with the central government.

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There is only so many times you can accuse me of that when I had contacted central government about this meeting being one about centralisation and unity rather than just stroking the ego of the little tiger.

And any experts Wu has, were either from Jehol he forced to share or external ones he paid for the same as anyone else.

I havent been stopping them going anywhere except to Jehol. Everywhere else in Qing I have not been excludding.

 

[Kipeci]

initiate the formation and creation of a domestic group tasked with the protection of Qing's inner territories called: The Dragon's Claw.

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Figure I should ask, is this group limited to your jurisdiction? Or across Qing as a whole? Also, what is meant by "inner territories"?

Also as a friendly heads up, you may need to pay a lot for White Russian mercenaries by now. Manchukuo has a lot of them in the military and allows them their own autonomomously ruled communes and many of them are also engaged in fighting in the northwest against Sheng Shicai. To peel them away in significant numbers from both of us will likely be somewhat costly and possibly impact success in the northwest if you succeed.

 

[VoidZero]

There is only so many times you can accuse me of that when I had contacted central government about this meeting being one about centralisation and unity rather than just stroking the ego of the little tiger.

And any experts Wu has, were either from Jehol he forced to share or external ones he paid for the same as anyone else.

I havent been stopping them going anywhere except to Jehol. Everywhere else in Qing I have not been excludding.

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Likewise, if Wu decides pay no regard to all the free trade Jehol offered than what use is there to argue? It is clear that Wu is the biggest road block for whole of Qing to enjoy Jehol's output, it's even mentioned in the update.

 

[BurningLaugh]

Figure I should ask, is this group limited to your jurisdiction? Or across Qing as a whole? Also, what is meant by "inner territories"?

Also as a friendly heads up, you may need to pay a lot for White Russian mercenaries by now. Manchukuo has a lot of them in the military and allows them their own autonomomously ruled communes and many of them are also engaged in fighting in the northwest against Sheng Shicai. To peel them away in significant numbers from both of us will likely be somewhat costly and possibly impact success in the northwest if you succeed.

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It's under the Emperor's Jurisdiction but since Zhang Xun is the delegated leader of the Manchu Restoration Movement and the one founding the group then he's in command but answers to the Emperor. The inner territories are the lands owned by Qing that aren't contested and currently being fought over with the enemies. The stable and non-violent domestic areas of Qing are the operating zones of the Claw, but if push comes to shove then they can move to the battlefront. Also I only need about 6 White Russian mercenaries don't really need many.

 

[Kipeci]

It's under the Emperor's Jurisdiction but since Zhang Xun is the delegated leader of the Manchu Restoration Movement and the one founding the group then he's in command but answers to the Emperor. The inner territories are the lands owned by Qing that aren't contested and currently being fought over with the enemies. The stable and non-violent domestic areas of Qing are the operating zones of the Claw, but if push comes to shove then they can move to the battlefront. Also I only need about 6 White Russian mercenaries don't really need many.

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Only six to provide their expertise & teach to this whole group? Well, it won't cost much, but I don't know how much of them will learn in that case. I thought that Dragon's Claw would be a large group but I'd think that number low for a training department serving a couple hundreds, personally.

 

[BurningLaugh]

Only six to provide their expertise & teach to this whole group? Well, it won't cost much, but I don't know how much of them will learn in that case. I thought that Dragon's Claw would be a large group but I'd think that number low for a training department serving a couple hundreds, personally.

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I presume that the group will be relatively small when it just begins/starts. I expect the mercenaries to train the first few members and then they'll largely be unneeded as the leaders of the Dragon's Claw should be able to teach new members about the skills learned from the White Russians.