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A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

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DanBaque said:
--Besides all this, if the government is threatened by bankruptcy, then temporarily costs will be slightly cut, particularly in military options
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I really hope you don't mean cutting salary, cause soldier bandits is a very real problem.

And your massive industry investment coupled with arms industry shakeup plus tax reform is a huge train wreck risk; not to mention having the election within the same year.

Soooooo, make sacrifices to the dice god.
 
Dadarian said:
Ask @Terrafirma, I think he is planning on writing a plan. That said, I'll put up an informational some time tomorrow before the football game.
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Apologies for not being clear. Technically, are both part of the same state? The question was more if they could participate. As you said:
Dadarian said:
the KMT had formally divided into two regimes
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English is not my first language, and I was unsure if formally meant officially in this context.
 
DanBaque said:
Apologies for not being clear. Technically, are both part of the same state? The question was more if they could participate. As you said:

English is not my first language, and I was unsure if formally meant officially in this context.
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They could participate. Formally in this context meant an open split between the two factions as opposed to it being a private, hidden matter.
 
VoidZero said:
I really hope you don't mean cutting salary, cause soldier bandits is a very real problem.
And your massive industry investment coupled with arms industry shakeup plus tax reform is a huge train wreck risk; not to mention having the election within the same year.
Soooooo, make sacrifices to the dice god.
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No, I meant lowering the amount of money put into standarization and reliability reform, but I can see how that might be taken to mean what you say. Thank you very much for that, you've saved me from a possible problem.

- On tax reform, theoretically, revenues should be much higher after this, as the old taxation system is very inneficient. Besides, much of the financial probems came from the fact that Canton (one of the largest sources of income for the KMT) had been lost, so I don't really expect anything bad to happen. Of course, that may just be hubris and I may be in for a dose of Zuolin luck.
 
DanBaque said:
No, I meant lowering the amount of money put into standarization and reliability reform, but I can see how that might be taken to mean what you say. Thank you very much for that, you've saved me from a possible problem.

- On tax reform, theoretically, revenues should be much higher after this, as the old taxation system is very inneficient. Besides, much of the financial probems came from the fact that Canton (one of the largest sources of income for the KMT) had been lost, so I don't really expect anything bad to happen. Of course, that may just be hubris and I may be in for a dose of Zuolin luck.
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Salt my wound would ye. :V
At present I would prefer the KMTs to remain in somewhat stable situation, but Qing co will exploit weakness of lefties if there is one. Which mean I may get land, but also even more loss to my forces; since the emperor will call and I had to obey. Not saying I lean in either way, but reality is funny like that.
 
@Dadarian I want to add that Prince Chun uses the realisation of the fact, that Qing China is a paper tiger to motivate the rest of Qing to support his reforms, but it is a more generalized approach, so how would you suggest I add it to my plan?

VoidZero said:
At present I would prefer the KMTs to remain in somewhat stable situation, but Qing co will exploit weakness of lefties if there is one. Which mean I may get land, but also even more loss to my forces; since the emperor will call and I had to obey. Not saying I lean in either way, but reality is funny like that.
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Yeah, it is a obvious divide, that could be turn out very advantagous for me and Qing China.

@BurningLaugh Do you have any thoughts about something I could improve about my plan?
 
Mortenkam said:
@Dadarian I want to add that Prince Chun uses the realisation of the fact, that Qing China is a paper tiger to motivate the rest of Qing to support his reforms, but it is a more generalized approach, so how would you suggest I add it to my plan?


Yeah, it is a obvious divide, that could be turn out very advantagous for me and Qing China.

@BurningLaugh Do you have any thoughts about something I could improve about my plan?
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No, the plan looks relatively solid.
Wait till the next update and I may have one.
 
Mortenkam said:
@Dadarian I want to add that Prince Chun uses the realisation of the fact, that Qing China is a paper tiger to motivate the rest of Qing to support his reforms, but it is a more generalized approach, so how would you suggest I add it to my plan?
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Sadly I cannot, because I don't think it's the place of the G/QM to give advice on how to write plans. I can give you all the info about China and I'm sure my wonderful playerplace will help you out if you ask.

kilopi505 said:
@Dadarian, ok. Go with the information thingy.
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Expect one around 12:00 PST tomorrow.
 
Mortenkam said:
@Dadarian I want to add that Prince Chun uses the realisation of the fact, that Qing China is a paper tiger to motivate the rest of Qing to support his reforms, but it is a more generalized approach, so how would you suggest I add it to my plan?
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Dadarian said:
This would be shocking, as it showed just how much a paper tiger, both economically and militarily the Qing was without it's warlords
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Mortenkam, the whole "paper tiger" thing, is without the warlords. You're hardly going to get the warlords to support your plan to try to make them obsolete by telling them that they are currently the base of Qing power, and without them you are nothing. Of course, that's just my interpretation of the matter, it could work if you twist it somehow.
 
[X]Tang Jiyao
[X] Plan: Crouching Tiger, Raging Dragon

- The Right KMT will keep its options open but will grudgingly begin further, more intimate communications with Prince Chun looking to cement not only nominal trade but cooperation against the rising CPC. In the event of war, Tang Jiyao will work with the rest of his posse to give material aid to the Qing, if the situation warrants it, however, the RKMT will join the fray on their terms against the Communists.
- In the field of subtlety, Jiyao will make the first move. His eager agents will attempt to shake up the CPC-LKMT alliance going as far as wet work to stop the Reds.
- In the event of a war against the leftists, Chiang Kai Shek will be given an army and sent to relieve the enemy's likely first target: Jiangxi led by Li Liejun.
- Officer's initiative will be observed for a more decentralized command structure during any conflict.
- Bai Chongxi will lead the forces in ending the enemy enclave within the RKMT while Tang Jiyao, Lu Rongting, Liu Xiang will charge across the front moving as swiftly as possible going after strategic locations, particularly supply and weapons caches to continue to fuel their push. Once enemy resistance stiffens significantly, the forces are to consolidate and begin anew in a united push to pressure the enemy all along the front.

[ X ] Recognize the Emperor's peace with China.
 
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[X]Liao Zhongkai
-[X] Plan Peace for Victory
-[X] Do you recognise publicly the Emperor's Peace with China? Yes
 
Terrafirma said:
[X]Tang Jiyao
[X] Plan: Crouching Tiger, Raging Dragon

- The Right KMT will keep its options open but will grudgingly begin further, more intimate communications with Prince Chun looking to cement not only nominal trade but cooperation against the rising CPC. In the event of war, Tang Jiyao will work with the rest of his posse to give material aid to the Qing, if the situation warrants it, however, the RKMT will join the fray on their terms against the Communists.
- In the field of subtlety, Jiyao will make the first move. His eager agents will attempt to shake up the CPC-LKMT alliance going as far as wet work to stop the Reds.
- In the event of a war against the leftists, Chiang Kai Shek will be given an army and sent to relieve the enemy's likely first target: Jiangxi led by Li Liejun.
- Officer's initiative will be observed for a more decentralized command structure during any conflict.

[ X ] Recognize the Emperor's peace with China.
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Aiyah. This is quite problematic for the Tongs. Is it Civil War time already, when elections are coming?

Don't you folks need to start campaigning? I'm working on the voters of the Macao-Hongkong area to vote as a block for Chiang Kai Shek.

Also, have you heard of Rhine Capitalism? Then again, in-quest its still dependent on the dice rolls if Du Yuesheng can articulate it enough to start preaching about it.

...it should be called Tong Capitalism in-quest, right?
 
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kilopi505 said:
Also, have you heard of Rhine Capitalism? Then again, in-quest its still dependent on the dice rolls if Du Yuesheng can articulate it enough to start preaching about it.
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I don't think it is. Dadarian has said:
Dadarian said:
You don't need to order your thoughts, you can just think it and you're fine (without the name of Rhine Capitalism). I wouldn't want you to waste an order.
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If you want to talk about it with Chiang, you still need to use an order, but it being articulate enough to preach is already assured. The success it gets in the Right-KMT isn't, of course.
 
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@Shaseyu Given the fact that Terrafirma is going to possibly try to assasinate some of your own:
Terrafirma said:
- In the field of subtlety, Jiyao will make the first move. His eager agents will attempt to shake up the CPC-LKMT alliance going as far as wet work to stop the Reds.
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You should probably edit your plan.

---

@Terrafirma Do you plan to participate in the elections? If you want to keep your options open, seems best to do so.

---

To everyone:
In the plan, I have created an investigation and engineering group. These are the ideas I already had:
DanBaque said:
-- Create an institute for state development of technology:
- Have those with experience in the matter try to create a Howell variant with less jamming (without changing the ammunition it uses).
- Have those with experience in the matter try to create a Howell variant that is more efficient to create (without changing the ammunition it uses).
- Use the Sikorski S-12 to create a new fighter plane.
- Use the Sikorski Ilya Muramov to create a variant, that is a better bomber, with more range, speed and that can carry more weight.
- If train engines are gained, reverse engineers them to find about how to construct them.
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Any ideas for investigation?

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@Dadarian
- How many 40-week divisions (" up to a third of those who join, who will have priority for equipment before other training groups and stricter fitness requirements (between the ages of 18 and 30), will train for 40 weeks (cannot be called up before finishing training). This group will train in harsher conditions, with more drilling and a greater importance of discipline being impressed upon them)" were created?

- Would these officers be in the Left-KMT? Would they follow (roughly) Guotao's doctrine?
Cheng Qian ( old officer of the KMT, old ally of Sun Yat-Sen, surrendered to the CPC in 1949)
Zhang Zizhong
Guan Linzheng
 
DanBaque said:
@Dadarian
- How many 40-week divisions (" up to a third of those who join, who will have priority for equipment before other training groups and stricter fitness requirements (between the ages of 18 and 30), will train for 40 weeks (cannot be called up before finishing training). This group will train in harsher conditions, with more drilling and a greater importance of discipline being impressed upon them)" were created?

- Would these officers be in the Left-KMT? Would they follow (roughly) Guotao's doctrine?
Cheng Qian ( old officer of the KMT, old ally of Sun Yat-Sen, surrendered to the CPC in 1949)
Zhang Zizhong
Guan Linzheng
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This'll all be in the informational blurb, the length of which will probably be near update-ish.

Edit: Also elections have to be ordered, they don't come by naturally on the date. I'm just saying because I don't know if you know or not.
 
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Dadarian said:
This'll all be in the informational blurb, the length of which will probably be near update-ish.

Edit: Also elections have to be ordered, they don't come by naturally on the date. I'm just saying because I don't know if you know or not.
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...wait. Someone actually has to order elections to happen in their plan for it to happen?

How long again has it been since our last election?
 
We could always replan once the information blurb dropped. :V

Looks like we are in romance of 3 loose tribes. :V With GPs and Japan.
 
Added this.

* Participate in the elections. Personally campaign for Chiang Kai Shek and Kemingtang candidates in the Canton, Macao and Hong Kong area. And start publicly interrogating genuine Communists regarding their vision of a Communist economy in places full of self-employed people such as street vendors and farmers and fishermen.
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This should really make voters think really hard about voting for Communists.
 
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State of China; 1925
  • Informational

    • State of China; 1925
    ​
    The state of China was one in near-constant flux, especially in the wake of the Second Sino-Japanese War or Manchurian War (1923 - 1925). Generals, warlords, industrialists, and armaments changed by the year as allegiances and foreign meddling in turn came and went. As exact numbers during this period would rely on documents at the time, which were more often than not either falsified or expanded in order to produce better results for the writer or a poorer result for a personal enemy, all the below numbers represent a rough approximation in size, quality, and other discernible qualitative vectors. Further, only the most relevant governors, generals, and politicos will be collected.

    Qing China
    The Qing Empire is perhaps the most fractious and diverse polity within the modern Warlord Era of China. From the deserts of Dzungaria, to the steppes of Jehol, to the Yellow River, the Qing Emperor theoretical rules. However in practice it is found that no such thing was true, and a mixture of autonomous governors and powerful generals ruled in the Emperor's name as a formality. By far the most powerful man was Wu Peifu, once a common general of the Zhili Clique who gathered strength with the deaths of his commanders and the weakening of his fellow warlords. Now Marshal, he is perhaps one of the most powerful men north of the Yellow River. However, this should not undermine the strengths of other warlords within the Empire. For all intents and purposes, the semi-independent Fengtian Clique will be considered part of the Qing Empire. Below is a rough collection of the statistics of the nation as is.

    CiC: The Emperor
    - Imperial Guard: Prince Chun - 1,000 elites (1/2 division), 10 artillery pieces
    Minister of War: Li Yuanhong

    Northeast Defense Command (Red Banner): Zhang Xueliang - 75,000 regulars (roughly 3 divisions), 150 artillery pieces, 10,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Jehol Enclaves: Zhang Xueliang - same as above.
    -- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Type 30s, Mosin-Nagant, Maxims and Type 3s (limited numbers).

    East Command (Blue Banner): Wu Peifu - 80,000 regulars (roughly 6 divisions), 100 artillery pieces, 6,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Zhili: Wu Peifu - 30,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions), 50 artillery pieces, 2,500 horses.
    - Military Governor of Anhui: Duan Qirui - 20,000 regulars (roughly 1 division), 20 artillery pieces, 1,500 horses.
    - Military Governor of Hebei: Zhang Xun - 20,000 regulars (roughly 1 division) & 10,000 conscripts, 20 artillery pieces, 1,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Chahar: Fang Zhenwu - 10,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions) & 15,000 conscripts, 10 artillery pieces, 1,000 horses.
    -- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Maxims (limited numbers).

    Northwest Command (Green Banner): NO COMMANDER - 15,000 regulars (roughly 3 divisions), 10 artillery pieces, 2,500 horses.
    - Military Governor of Xinjiang: Yang Zhengxin - 5,000 regulars (roughly 1 division) & 15,000 conscripts, 5 artillery pieces, 2,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Qinghai: Ma Fuxiang - 10,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions) & 5,000 conscripts, 5 artillery pieces, 500 horses.
    -- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Maxims (extremely limited numbers)

    Industry: Heavily Industrialised Locales - Jehol
    Medium Industrialised Locales - Beijing, Nanjing
    Low Industrialised Locales - Limited Numbers

    Economy: Tax income - High Quantity/Low Quality
    Spending - Medium/Low

    Kunming-KMT China
    A military with a nation, the Kunming-KMT represent a mixture of all those republicans who were pissed-off, turned-off, or otherwise disenfranchised under Sun Yat-sen's communitarian bent. Huge in size, but having a bloated officer corps and limited industrial capacity, the Kunming-KMT have an exceedingly large amount of potential at this point in time. However, spending outstrips income by a large amount, and the treasury can only be satiated by seizures of land and property for so long.

    CiC: Tang Jiyao

    - Military Governor of Yunnan: Tang Jiyao - 80,000 regulars (roughly 4 divisions), 150 artillery pieces, 10,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Nanning: Lu Rongting - 30,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions), 30,000 conscripts, 50 artillery pieces, 4,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Sicuan: Liu Xiang - 100,000 regulars (roughly 5 divisions), 10 artillery pieces, 15,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Jiangxi: Liu Liejun - 40,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions) & 20,000 conscripts, 60 artillery pieces 1,000 horses.
    -- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Maxims (limited numbers).

    General without an Army: Chiang Kai-shek

    Industry: Heavily Industrialised Locales - Kanchow
    Medium Industrialised Locales - Kunming, Chengdu
    Low Industrialised Locales - Limited Numbers

    Economy: Tax income - Medium Quantity/Medium Quality
    Spending - High

    Changsha-KMT China
    A nation based on the freedom of the Chinese people, the Changsha-KMT regime is built in the communal vision of the late President-Marshal. Stuffed to the brim with conscripted partisans and massed infantry divisions, the largest armies in Asia are located in the heavily industrialised south. Most of these forces were made up of men in 40-week divisions, or rather had a near year contract with the C-KMT government to defend their newfound way of life. However, spending is truly tremendous with an almost Keynesian focus on spending over income, resulting in an increasingly stressed economic realities. Due to the extensive realities of the C-KMT and CPC military interconnectedness, the two will both be placed under the same OOB.

    CiC: Liao Zhongkai
    Special plenipotentiary of War: Zhang Guotao

    - First Army: Ji Hongchang - 130,000 irregulars, 50 artillery pieces, 30,000 horses.
    - Second Army: Cheng Qian - 100,000 irregulars, 60 artillery pieces, 15,000 horses.
    - Support "Army": Mikhail Borodin - 40,000 support troops, 20,000 horses.
    - Communist Militias Fujian: Chen Geng - 35,000 partisans, 5,000 horses.
    - Communist Militias Guangxi: Zhang Guotao - 45,000 partisans, 5 artillery pieces, 7,000 horses.
    - Communist Militias Unattached: Mao Zedong - 25,000 partisans, 4,000 horses.
    - Military Governor of Xikang: Liu Wenhui - 15,000 regulars (roughly 1 division), 20,000 irregulars, 10,000 horses.
    -- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Mosin-Nagants, Hall Rifles, Howell Rifles (limited numbers), Maxims.

    Industry: Very Heavily Industrialised Locales - Hunan Province, Changsha
    Medium Industrialised Locales - Numerous Numbers
    Low Industrialised Locales - Highly Numerous Numbers

    Economy: Tax income - Medium Quantity/Medium Quality
    Spending - Extremely High

    Zhuhai Tongs
    Once based in the metropolis of Shanghai, Du was forced to flee from the Japanese following the naval landings at Shanghai in 1924. Zhuhai is a moderately populated village with little beyond beauty and rice, however Du is determined to make this Southern village into a haven for Tong operations. Already widely expanding Tong membership within the village as well as maintaining his connections in Taiwan, Du is poised to make a due return to form.

    CiC: Big Eared Du

    - Du's Guard: 250 elites
    - Tong Members: 3,000 Gangbangers
    - Taiwan Tong Members: 500 Gangbanger
    -- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Hall Rifles, Howell Rifles (limited numbers).

    Industry: Heavily Industrialised Locales - None
    Medium Industrialised Locales - None
    Low Industrialised Locales - Zhuhai

    Economy: Tax income - Medium Quantity/High Quality
    Spending - Low
     
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