A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

So. Counting rough numbers:
-Qing:
1+75+80(+25)+15(+20)=171.000 men or 216.000 men with conscripts
10+150+100+10=270 artillery pieces
- K-KMT:
80+30+30+100+40+20= 300,000 men
150+50+10+60= 270 artillery pieces
- C-KMT:
130+100+15+20= 265,000 soldiers
45+35+25= 105,000 partisans
50+60+5= 115 artillery pieces
- Tong: 3750 soldiers
 
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Can you guys try to knock out Wu's army if the war goes hot? He is too powerful for anyone in Qing to breath and reform. :V
 
-- Equipment: Hanyang 88s, Type 30s, Mosin-Nagant, Maxims and Type 3s (limited numbers).

What's a type 3? Google tells me it is a tank Japanese used in WW2.

Also, what did the German officers suggest for better weapons and armour? Pay Wihmar Republic for production tech, attract German military production corporation, or develop my own?
 
@Dadarian
- Is the difference in quality of soldiers known?
- What does 40 weeks (not quite a year) have to do with three years and four months?
- Would Canton count as "Heavily industrialized"?
 
What's a type 3? Google tells me it is a tank Japanese used in WW2.

Also, what did the German officers suggest for better weapons and armour? Pay Wihmar Republic for production tech, attract German military production corporation, or develop my own?

It's a type of HMG. The Germans want you to pay exorbitant amounts of money to import German weaponry.

@Dadarian
- Is the difference in quality of soldiers known?
- What does 40 weeks (not quite a year) have to do with three years and four months?
- Would Canton count as "Heavily industrialized"?

Yes, Elites > Regulars > Irregulars ~ Conscripts > Partisans. Roughly.
I was thinking 40 months, not weeks, I'll fix it now.
Canton would count as very heavily industrialised.
 
Sadly I cannot, because I don't think it's the place of the G/QM to give advice on how to write plans. I can give you all the info about China and I'm sure my wonderful playerplace will help you out if you ask.
I was thinking in technically terms, when I asked, like if I should add it as a seperate point, but since I have used all my six orders, then if I added it, then I likely ourght to add it under the different orders as a way to persuia people.
Mortenkam, the whole "paper tiger" thing, is without the warlords. You're hardly going to get the warlords to support your plan to try to make them obsolete by telling them that they are currently the base of Qing power, and without them you are nothing. Of course, that's just my interpretation of the matter, it could work if you twist it somehow.
You seem to be right in that, as without warlords, I would only have a 1000 men.
Can you guys try to knock out Wu's army if the war goes hot? He is too powerful for anyone in Qing to breath and reform. :V
Yeah, he nearly control Qing's whole army if you do not count Fengtian Clique.
So. Counting rough numbers:
-Qing:
1+75+80+30+20+20+10+10+15+15+5+15+10+5 =311,000 men
10+150+100+50+20+20+10+10+5+5= 380 artillery pieces
I think you might have counted some of Qing's armies twice, like for example Wu's army, where the total is 80.000 and then @Dadarian shows how they are divided in separate commands.

So it is likely more like this
- Qing:
1+75+80(+25)+15(+20)=171,000 men or 216,000 men with conscripts
10+150+100+10=270 artillery pieces
10+6+2.5=18,500 horses

But that does put Qing at a very low number of troops in comparison, since if KMT had not spilt, they would right now have double as many as Qing, though I am guessing that the spilt is part of the reason that KMT has so many men right now, since both since it seems that K-KMT got away with the best trained troops and C-KMT has had to make up for it in raw recruits.

@Dadarian is there really no other real armies in Qing besides the armies of Wu and Fengtian Clique? Would Qing really have settled for so few men if they had written Fengtian Clique off by declaring them rogue?
 
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@Miner249er @Atlanta-Georgia

I appreciate your long time support and forgiveness of my hurbis. Below will be the final version of the plan for the turn.
The intention is to link faction to the emperor and use our investments to siphon money and material from Qing's internal developments. Then pay Germans for weapons import and smaller production tech to fund the new modern army. The future plan will be trying to regain a province and provide for Zhang loyalist with aim of at least triple amount of regular soldier and much more artillery. And some armour.

[] Zhang Xueliang
-[] Yes, bitterly accept Qing throne's negotiated peace
-[] Square zero
  1. Negotiate with Prince regent for faction survival and mutual cooperation. Zhang faction will exchange military and industrial development know-how for everything that it needs. Emperor, and the Prince regent by extension, will be guiding the direction of Zhang's political weight.
  2. Continue military modernization and reward the military for loyalty. Welcome the German officers officially and sound them out about sending more officers for massive expansion of Fengtian military academy; they, their support staff, and family are of course paid salary and given visa equivalent.
  3. Send out international invitations and hiring advertisements for expansion of the Zuolin technical university and additional branches in medical and civil developments. (Xu Shichang's job)
  4. Work with the business and industry for investment and upgrades for Zhang enclaves' industrial sector and further cooperation with Germans. Focus will be on producing more advanced weapons and improving effectiveness of existing weapons. Flood non-Wu militaries within Qing with cheap and old weapons, sold at rate slightly above cost.
  5. Work with the business, military, and industry to setup the Zhang industrial investment and development corporation. Hire/invite the loyal but now poor business and industrial people into the fold. This corporation will make money by investing into Qing's budding industry as well as providing consultation services for industrial development and selling industrial goods. Investment and development consultation services will be limited to Qing and foreign entity for the time being, this means Wu faction, Japan, USSR, and groups the Emperor doesn't like are declined. Industrial goods can be said to include weapons and ammunition, buyer will not be checked but have to pay in cash or cash equivalent.
  6. Conduct public relationship campaign, ensuring all personnel worked and working for Fengtian clique had and will continue to be paid and taken care for. Reinforce their love and loyalty for Zhang Xueliang with mentions of promises kept and vow that Xueliang will lead them back to Manchuria with their head held high. (Xu Shichang's job)
 
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I got inspired by @DanBaque and decided to make a more detailed overview of the armies, that also showed quality of the men.
@Dadarian By the way, what quality the support troops C-KMT has and when you write horses, is that the just the numbers of horses a army has or is it the number cavalrymen?

-Qing:
Elite: 1 = 1,000 men
Regulars: 75+80+15= 170,000 men
Conscripts: 25+20= 45,000 men
Total: 1+170+45= 216,000 men


Horses: 10+6+2.5= 18,500
Artillery: 10+150+100+10=270 pieces

- K-KMT:
Regulars: 80+30+100+40= 250,000 men
Conscripts: 30+20= 50,000 men

Total: 250+50= 300,000

Horses: 10+4+15+1= 30,000
Artillery: 150+50+10+60= 270 pieces

- C-KMT:
Regulars: 15= 15,000 men

Irregulars: 130+100+20= 250,000 men
Partisans: 45+35+25= 105,000 men
Support: 40= 40,000 men

Total: 15+250+105+40= 410,000 men

Horses: 30+15+20+5+7+4+10= 91,000
Artillery: 50+60+5= 115 pieces​
 
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It's a type of HMG. The Germans want you to pay exorbitant amounts of money to import German weaponry.

I see, is there any chance for Germans to release production tech for lesser military supply (helm, uniform, entrenching tool, canned food, etc) if I agree to regular weapons imports at the exorbitant price they set?

Also, just to satisfy my curiosity, can you throw out some number for Fengtian clique before the Manchurian war broke out?
 
@Dadarian is there really no other real armies in Qing besides the armies of Wu and Fengtian Clique? Would Qing really have settled for so few men if they had written Fengtian Clique off by declaring them rogue?

@Dadarian By the way, what quality the support troops C-KMT has and when you write horses, is that the just the numbers of horses a army has or is it the number cavalrymen?

Not anymore, but it wasn't always that way. Wu has recently consolidated the Zhili and Anhui Cliques into a single entity. The Qing themselves never had much of a standing army, and have relied on conscripts if they had written off the Fengtian Clique (alongside the warlords like the Zhili and Anhui Cliques). Support troops are very low quality, given that they're all either old, sick, or crippled. Lastly, horses mean just horses.
 
@Dadarian
- How do the Qing have so much artillery with so little MIC? Buying it, or remnants from the Qing army?
- The 40-weeks thing was meant to be the creation of a more well-trained part of the military: Currently, basic is 9 weeks, so 40-weeks of training meant that they would be a part of the army that had much more training, and was better all-round:
up to a third of those who join, who will have priority for equipment before other training groups and stricter fitness requirements (between the ages of 18 and 30), will train for 40 weeks (cannot be called up before finishing training). This group will train in harsher conditions, with more drilling and a greater importance of discipline being impressed upon them

---

Vote for the Changsha-KMT and the freedom of the Chinese people!
[]Liao Zhongkai
-[] Plan Peace for Victory
-[] Do you recognise publicly the Emperor's Peace with China? Yes
1. The Left-KMT financial situation is disastrous. This situation must be quickly reformed:
-- A tax reform, as the tax system in the Left-KMT is antiquated, based on old Qing methods, and inefficient. Set up: a strong georgist, land-value tax, a small VAT tax, a medium-to-large progressive tax, a medium capital gains tax, anda medium marginal income tax. All other taxes in use will be abolished once the new ones are applied.
-- Various unexplored or unexcavated ore deposits will be rented out (for up to 12 years, and a written promise that the contract will likely be given to them again afterwards) to anyone willing to invest in them. If the buyers are Chinese workers willing to create mining cooperatives, they will be allowed to use them with a smaller rent, and buy them outright or in stages.
-- Reform the Chinese Central bank to be more efficient and work better, and to combat inflation while still using the silver yuan. At the same time, it will create a new unit of currency, named the Republican Chinese Dollar, which will be accepted as legal tender by the Goverment, but not convertible to silver (fiat money). It will be accepted as legal tender for taxation (to show confidence in it), and initially given the same value as the silver yuan. It will not be printed on a massive scale, to avoid high inflation.
-- Besides all this, if the government is threatened by bankruptcy, then temporarily costs and payments will be slightly cut, particularly in industrial development.
2. Chinese civilian industry is woeful. It is in dire need of an expansion:
- This shall all be done with the aid of what Soviet engineers and knowledge can be gained.
- Expand the Chinese chemical industry, particularly sulphur, (sulphur has much use in fertilizers, so there is an assured internal demand for it).
- Create a hydroelectric industry in China (run-of-the-river), with both the army engineers and civilians working to create them (maintanance and occupation shall only be done by civilian workers).
- Continue mechanization of agriculture, funded by both the state when financially possible and the farmers and communes themselves, who will be subsidized.
3. Now that the war with Japan is over, the conditions of the Chinese people must rise:
- Labor rights will be expanded thoroughly, with these conditions: 8-hour, 5 day workweek, a month of paid vacation plus holidays, complete freedom of association, the right of collective bargaining, prohibition of child labor, the right to strike, and a living wage, enshrined in law.
In the case of military factories/ workplaces that produce war materiel, strikes are also legal, but only after negotiation has been attempted. The aim of this reform, besides bettering the conditions of the industrial working class, is to make sure that any product made in Chinese factories (such as bullets, rifles…) does not have flaws/is more reliable due to the worker not being exhausted and distracted, even though production as a whole will be lowered. The other aim is to gain more civilian support for Liao Zhongka(and the Left-KMT), the architect and promoter of this reform. In order for factories to still be filled, there will be calls for chinese from the Qing and the Right-KMT to come work in the Left-KMT where it is plentiful and conditions are great.
- As workers shall have more free time, townhall/city square open-air literacy classes shall be given to those who desire it by any literate volunteer. The KMT will ask its members to participate, both in the learning and the teaching.
- Presidential elections will also be held, with the old independent special committee reformed to be sure of impartiality. Liao Zhongkai will campaigna as candidate under the KMT banner.

4. Reform the KMT party internally, in preparation for the upcoming elections, to gain as many votes for the Left-KMT as possible:
- Shift the KMT organization to be even more of a mass party, permitting all sorts of people to join, for a very small fee, that can be waived if the member is found to be of low-income. This will also be used to propagate KMT ideas into the countryside and increase the membership as much as possible, as it is the KMT that proposes that peasants can have true revolutionary spirit.
- Liao Zhongkai will create a pressure group of members of the KMT that are more left-leaning (not necessarily communist, can be sindicalist, anarchist, councilist... or just more left-leaning than the avergae KMT) than the rest and want to keep and expand democracy, called the Revolutionary Comitee of the KMT. Naturally, if a right-wing pressure group forms, it will be allowed, but watched in case it has something to do with the Right-KMT.
- In order to not alienate the anarchist democratic groups, the anarchists that were chased out of Guangzhou by the Japanese invasion (in OTL they where chased out by the KMT, but since no order like that was given, and no internal repression has been done, I'm assuming they were still in their spaces) will be allowed to return to the neighbourhoods that they controlled, as long as they continue to pay their taxes. This will also be used to keep the anarchist members of the KMT (examples: 1, 2, 3, 4) in it and happy, as their influential relationship with the Chinese student education groups in Tokyo and Paris will allow for more chinese to be sent to study there, and more knowledge to be sent to China.

5. Have Tang Shaoyi negotiate with all powers outside of China for more trade deals and greater investment: (Tang Shaoyi)
- Conditions for the investment will be made welcoming, with slightly lower taxes and tarriffs (if you invest) for this year.
-Negotiations with the Soviet Union shall be continued now that they can, with aid being asked for once again, in this case for experts in the mechanization of agriculture, aid for the creation of railways and train engines and constructing civilian industry, and as always, officers to teach at Whampoa. Offer raw materials, food, and whatever China can supply that they are in need of (not workers).
6. Now that the war is over, the armaments industry must be reformed:
-- Standardize small arms production, choosing the Howell as the rifle for the Army (and, though at second-place, also for the militias), while other rifles are given to the militias or kept in storage when they are no longer needed.
-- Reform the armaments industry to ensure the reliability (most important) and efficiency of its production, especially ammunition.


Reasoning, part by part:
1: Spending is far too high, but as most of it is in the military, and war looms, it is difficult to lower it. Thus, a large number of reforms to gain more income.
2: If an industry is developed, the economy will be better, and thus income will increase. This is only going to be this turn, it is far too expensive to be continuous.
3: Getting more reliabilty in the arms industry is absolutely necessary for the Howell to be a good investment. Besides, some Chinese work 16 hours a day, which is horrifying. Elections are necessary, it's already time.
4: Getting a stronger party, and one with a larger base.
5: If other people invest, then that's more revenue without any extra spending. It's uncertain to work, but if it does, it should be great.
6: The edge the Changsha-KMT has over other militaries is its industrial base. Thus, using it to get the best weapons would be a something other factions cannot do.
 
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The Qing historically has been buying a lot of artillery since the mid to late 19th century.

Since before the Sino-Japanese War.

Will write up a plan for Wu Peifu soon.
 
Will write up a plan for Wu Peifu soon.

Friend have I got a offer for you. Ya or nay?

Work with the business and industry for investment and upgrades for Zhang enclaves' industrial sector and further cooperation with Germans. Reach out to Wu and see if he will allow Zhang faction to have some land for linking the enclaves and settling displaced population. Zhang industrial investment and development corporation will work with him in areas like industry and military training if Wu allows.
 
I was thinking in technically terms, when I asked, like if I should add it as a seperate point, but since I have used all my six orders, then if I added it, then I likely ourght to add it under the different orders as a way to persuia people.

The rule of thumb I'd use is if you think you should use another point, you should probably use another point. If you can think of a way to do more within the 6 points, the power too you, but try not to abuse the 6 point rule.

I see, is there any chance for Germans to release production tech for lesser military supply (helm, uniform, entrenching tool, canned food, etc) if I agree to regular weapons imports at the exorbitant price they set?

Also, just to satisfy my curiosity, can you throw out some number for Fengtian clique before the Manchurian war broke out?

No, they don't want you to make things, they want you to buy their things. OOC reasoning is that it allows them to inflate arms production numbers and help arm their growing (illegal) army. Fengtian Army was probably a little over 100,000 men in 1923, with you losing most of your conscripts during the fighting for various reasons.

@Dadarian
- How do the Qing have so much artillery with so little MIC? Buying it, or remnants from the Qing army?
- The 40-weeks thing was meant to be the creation of a more well-trained part of the military: Currently, basic is 9 weeks, so 40-weeks of training meant that they would be a part of the army that had much more training, and was better all-round:

They're mostly remnants of Yuan Shikai's army, but as Zealous said they've also been buying foreign artillery for years. Also I misread the 40-weeks thing, I thought it was a short term military commission (akin to what the Union did in 1861 and British + Commonwealth did in 1914). I thought it was a really good idea tbh. You do have the long training times as well, but because I like the 40-weeks commission I'm keeping it. Think of it as a bonus good thing from Guotao or Borodin.

Also @DanBaque, can you tone down the subpoints? I cut down the plan length because of the huge plans being created, and now you're starting to inflate them again. I really don't want to making a ruling on how many subpoints people are allowed.
 
Blue sky planning for next turn:

Anyone want to join my little business delegation to tour Europa next turn? We will be visiting Germany, France, and Britain over 2 years/turns. Making purchase, tech negotiation, and good will building. Maybe even ask the various militaries if few of my young cadets can be hosted in their army. :V
 
Blue sky planning for next turn:

Anyone want to join my little business delegation to tour Europa next turn? We will be visiting Germany, France, and Britain over 2 years/turns. Making purchase, tech negotiation, and good will building. Maybe even ask the various militaries if few of my young cadets can be hosted in their army
Well, prince Chun has actually been in Germany before. It was one of the interesting facts that I read about him on his wiki page. Though I doubt that the prime minister has the time to go on a two year tour to Europa, but perhaps his other son, Pujie, could join it. He is of course only 17 at the moment, but his father was 18, when he went to Germany, so that might be okay.
 
[X] Zhang Zongchang
-[X] Yes
-[X] Plan: Taels you win, or heads you lose?
  1. Attempt to pacify this so-called 'Manzhouguo', offering bribes and payment to those who defect from the bandit armies to swell his own forces and attacking those that will not turn their arms to the Dogmeat General's service nor stand down.
  2. Secure monetary resources by extorting or looting the allies of the much-diminished Fengtian Clique as well as villages supporting the more independent-minded bandit gangs
  3. Heavily patrol areas where the Japanese maintain investments such as railways as well as the major cities; check for caches and Soviet encroachment at the border as manpower and resources allow.
  4. Using the connections among Zhang's Russian wives and concubines (making an honest effort to remember their names throughout), travel to Harbin and shore up support with the multitude White Russian emigres left stateless by the Bolshevik takeover of Russia. This may be done as seems prudent by offering them protection, granting citizenship and potentially even status as the 'sixth people' of Manchuria if necessary & the Japanese are amenable, in addition to holding festivities and investing in important persons.
  5. If possible, recruit willing White Russians into service as mercenaries; many of either gender have been hardened by war against the communists, and it would be a great boon to have experienced cavalrymen to traverse the vast distances of the northeast as well as nurses to tend to the wounded and sick. Certainly the unskilled bandits of Zhang Zongchang's army could stand to learn from their training.
  6. Zhang Zongchang had his first successes in his native Shandong, though he was forced out by rivals. Perhaps with his unprecedented success it is time to rekindle ties? Send agents laden with gifts through the Japanese controlled Inspectorate and concessions to see how old allies and friends fare and whether influential new ones may be made.

Thought it might be fun to finally put a plan together. I'm aware that taels had not actually been used as official currency for quite a while by this point, but I'm not terribly proficient with plan names.
 
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And an unexpected contender emerged from the shadows.

With addition of ZZ and WP as players we are going up hills in Mr.Bones' Wild Ride.
 
Thought it might be fun to finally put a plan together. I'm aware that taels had not actually been used as official currency for quite a while by this point, but I'm not terribly proficient with plan names.
Never would have thought Manchukuo would get a voter... Still, it is a good plan, that takes inspiration from his successes. Here's hoping you get your army going, and if lucky also some help from rich investors.

---

@Dadarian
-How many factions have airforces? Roughly how large are they?
 
:rofl::lol:rofl::lol:rofl::lol

I AM A WARLORD! THE LITTLEST WARLORD OF CHINA!

And I also made some edits in my plan.

Let's welcome the Zhuhai Boar Hunting Rifle to the world!
 
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Updated Communist plan, now with some focus on internal stability (and external instability).

[X] Chen Duxiu: Han Leader of the CPC.
-[X] Yes, the CPC grudgingly accept the peace.
-[X] Drive home the message that the main reasons for the war's end are the Qing and warlords' cowardice and blind lust for power. Their inability to set aside their differencies and unite against greater enemy robbed China's people of victory.
-[X] Tone down partisan activity on Japanese-occupied territory. Priorities should be conserving manpower and weaponry, hiding Communists supporters from occupants' retribution, gathering intel about Japanese actions.
-[X] Organise secret cells on the Right-KMT and the Qing territory for gathering intel about enemies' activity and identifying their weakpoints. Tensions amongst warlords, regions on the verge of a riot, potential routes to smuggle weaponry, anything that can help to weaken them in case of war.
-[X] Support Liao Zhongkai for the President. Work to ensure unity of the CPC and strengthen ties with Left-KMT. Unity of all progressive forces is the Republic's source of strength.
-[X] Put Zhou Enlai in charge of Educational programs:
--[X] Continue to sponsor education of the Chinese in USSR.
--[X] Fish for European and Soviet industrial experts willing to help China's rebuilding and modernisation (particularly locomotive and railroad building).
--[X] Take advantage of the KMT's offer to organise campaigns to fight illiteracy and explain people their new rights.

As Lenin said "Study, study and study again".
 
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@Dadarian I got a couple of questions.
C-KMT MIC
Industry: Very Heavily Industrialised Locales - Hunan, Changsha
Medium Industrialised Locales - Numerous Numbers
Low Industrialised Locales - Highly Numerous Numbers

Economy: Tax income - Medium Quantity/Medium Quality
Spending - Extremely High

Tong MIC Industry:
Heavily Industrialised Locales - None
Medium Industrialised Locales - None
Low Industrialised Locales - Zhuhai

Economy: Tax income - Medium Quantity/High Quality
Spending - Low
First, how does economy: tax income work, since I find it hard to believe that the tongs have a better economy, than C-KMT?
Second, why did you this time chose a different point to end the turn, than 1. January? Was it because of the treaty?

Third, how much more power does a vote in support of a person add to what he does, like how much is it the deciding factor in how well in goes for that person?

Fourth, how much of a navy do the different factions have?
 
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