A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

[Mortenkam]

Given that the Marshal's loyalty is uncertain, perhaps creating a separate structure loyal to Prince Chun and the Emperor. Maybe expanding the "support staff"(which would really just be normak divisions) for the IG. Or creating a separate command for Garrisons, which would be organized, paid and supplied by the central government.

Edit: wording was impolite. Sorry.

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Thanks for the idea of creating garrison forces, that would be seen as a less aggressive move, than creating a army in the capital, which is in the middle of Wu's demense, plus we avoid recruiting form the same pool of manpower.
Also, I did not fell offended by how you wrote it, before the edit.

[X] Prince Chun
-[X] Yes, prince Chun recognize the peace deal.
-[X] Plan: Lets become a real tiger

1. Prince Chun attempts to tie the warlords closer to the emperor and the central government in an attempt to minimize internal division in Qing China. This includes Fengtian Clique and its leader Zhang Xueliang, whom Prince Chun invites back to the imperial court. He will also try to get in contact with the upper members of the Cliques the warlords leads, so that he also can attempt to create loyalty amongst them.
2. Prince Chun attempts to make contact with different warlords and representatives of Kunming-KMT China to see if there was a potential for a temporal alliance against Changsa-KMT China and the communists. While doing that prince Chun will also see if any of the warlords would be willing to shift side and swear loyalty to the emperor.
   
3. Prince Chun continues to cleanse the bureaucracy of the incompetent and disloyal, with his goal being to create a loyal, competent, streamlined and modern bureaucracy.
4. Prince Chun will attempt to improve the military situation of Qing in three different ways. The first way, is to continue improving the Imperial Guard with an focus on it being the elite core of the Imperial Army. The second way, is by starting to raise regular troops as part of a new command lead by loyal officers, which will be responsible for guarding the part of Qing, which are not under the control of a warlord. Since the biggest threat towards Qing is the KMT, then they are meant to primarily guard border towards them, especially the border to C-KMT. The third way, is that Prince Chun will work on creating a central command to increase the ability for the different armies to work together. Wu Peifu, as a marshal of Qing, will of course a part of central command group of generals, who will lead the Imperial Army. Prince Chun will also invite Zhang Xueliang and his veteran soldiers from the Fengtian Clique to help train both the Imperial Guard and the new garrison troops, and to help establish a central command.
5. Prince Chun attempts to start the modernization of Qing China with the focus on improving and expanding the industry, especially the military industry, the infrastructure and the education system. Prince Chun will invite experts from Fengtian Clique to help with the industrialization process. The improvements of education in Qing China ought to be inspired by the western universities, especially its knowledge about the natural sciences. The infrastructure improvements are to be focused on the connection between the different industrial areas and the raw ressource extraction areas, with a secondary focus on supply lines for the military.
6. Prince Chun will attempt to create better connections to the western powers, especially Germany, while feeling out the possibility of a stronger working relationship in the hope of getting support for modernization of Qing both in areas of general industrialization and in the modernization of the armed forces, including the army, navy and perhaps even an airforce.

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@BurningLaugh and everbody else, I have changed a bit in my plan, adding training a force of regular troops to guard the border in the areas not controlled by warlords. I also added some details about whatthe infrastructure improvements are meant to do. Does it seem reasonable?

@ZealousThoughts @VoidZero @Terrafirma
What do you thing about working together to defeat the C-KMT?
@Terrafirma It seems like the K-KMT need to get more land to help it's spending problem, so taking it from C-KMT, which has the most industry would be a smart idea.
@VoidZero It would be a oppotunti to get yourself to get a new fief to replace the one you lost.
@ZealousThoughts It would allow you to crush one of Qing's enemies and by extension yours.
Together we would have a pretty large army, if we look at the numbers. It is even better trained and has more a lot more artillery, than C-KMT.

- Qing + K-KMT
(I removed the two small warlords of Qing, since I am unsure if they are willing to show up)
Elite: 1 = 1,000 men
Regulars: 75+80+250= 405,000 men
Conscripts: 25+50= 75,000 men
Total: 1+405+75= 481,000 men

Horses: 10+6+30= 46,000
Artillery: 10+150+100+270=530 pieces

Against

- C-KMT:
Regulars: 15= 15,000 men
Irregulars: 130+100+20= 250,000 men
Partisans: 45+35+25= 105,000 men
Support: 40= 40,000 men
Total: 15+250+105+40= 410,000 men

Horses: 30+15+20+5+7+4+10= 91,000
Artillery: 50+60+5= 115 pieces

So what do you think? We could attempt a attack next turn or perhaps even this turn, if you are willing to change plans.

 

[VoidZero]

Thanks for the idea of creating garrison forces, that would be seen as a less aggressive move, than creating a army in the capital, which is in the middle of Wu's demense, plus we avoid recruiting form the same pool of manpower.
Also, I did not fell offended by how you wrote it, before the edit.

@BurningLaugh and everbody else, I have changed a bit in my plan, adding training a force of regular troops to guard the border in the areas not controlled by warlords. I also added some details about whatthe infrastructure improvements are meant to do. Does it seem reasonable?

@ZealousThoughts @VoidZero @Terrafirma
What do you thing about working together to defeat the C-KMT?
@Terrafirma It seems like the K-KMT need to get more land to help it's spending problem, so taking it from C-KMT, which has the most industry would be a smart idea.
@VoidZero It would be a oppotunti to get yourself to get a new fief to replace the one you lost.
@ZealousThoughts It would allow you to crush one of Qing's enemies and by extension yours.
Together we would have a pretty large army, if we look at the numbers. It is even better trained and has more a lot more artillery, than C-KMT.

- Qing + K-KMT
(I removed the two small warlords of Qing, since I am unsure if they are willing to show up)
Elite: 1 = 1,000 men
Regulars: 75+80+250= 405,000 men
Conscripts: 25+50= 75,000 men
Total: 1+405+75= 481,000 men

Horses: 10+6+30= 46,000
Artillery: 10+150+100+270=530 pieces

Against

- C-KMT:
Regulars: 15= 15,000 men
Irregulars: 130+100+20= 250,000 men
Partisans: 45+35+25= 105,000 men
Support: 40= 40,000 men
Total: 15+250+105+40= 410,000 men

Horses: 30+15+20+5+7+4+10= 91,000
Artillery: 50+60+5= 115 pieces

So what do you think? We could attempt a attack next turn or perhaps even this turn, if you are willing to change plans.

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As i mentioned before, a call from Emperor to strike at south republic is unrefusable. Except i can not contribute much if Wu is attempting to lure my people, which means Wu land is viewed as less than friendly. The communists soaked land is also very unfriendly to the Fengtian clique, seeing there will be communists who fled from Manchuria that held grudges.

 

[Mortenkam]

As i mentioned before, a call from Emperor to strike at south republic is unrefusable. Except i can not contribute much if Wu is attempting to lure my people, which means Wu land is viewed as less than friendly. The communists soaked land is also very unfriendly to the Fengtian clique, seeing there will be communists who fled from Manchuria that held grudges.

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True, it would be a problem if your men starting leaving in large amounts, but they seem quite loyal and as long as you can pay them, then I do not think it is going to be a big issue, tought it is not the most friendly actions to poach men from the other guys army. If you run low on funds thought, then the rest of Qing might subsidize your army.

Also, when do you think it best to do an attack on C-KMT, now, next year or even later?

 

[DanBaque]

Also, when do you think it best to do an attack on C-KMT, now, next year or even later?

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I'm going to just give facts, no opinions, because I'm clearly biased:
- C-KMT continuous expansion of industry is untenable- too high spending. You, however, can easily spend much money into industrializing (you could even have the aid of the great powers), and evening the playing field.
- C-KMT is very heavily fortified
- C-KMT has the aid of the SU, and if you try to stop them from shipping in aid, you may get invaded through Mongolia (may; completely unknown)
- The Qing have supply issues:

constantly disrupted Qing supply-lines

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that they have not solved yet (no action used). This problem would be even greater with partisans messing them up.
- Warlord armies tend to fight among themselves (did so in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War OTL)- your reforms aim to change that, but it's unknown if they'll work, and they haven't been done yet.
- You don't have an airforce, and little way of changing that without extreme luck.
- A long war favors the C-KMT, with more industry, and on the defensive.
- C-KMT tactics are oriented towards the defensive and delaying actions- it'll likely (without natural 1s and 100s) be a long war.
You can take all this with a grain of salt, but realistically, the outcome of the war is very much a mystery, and I'd try to have more security before I start a war.

 

[VoidZero]

True, it would be a problem if your men starting leaving in large amounts, but they seem quite loyal and as long as you can pay them, then I do not think it is going to be a big issue, tought it is not the most friendly actions to poach men from the other guys army. If you run low on funds thought, then the rest of Qing might subsidize your army.

Also, when do you think it best to do an attack on C-KMT, now, next year or even later?

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Not really worried about funding, this turn's action should attach Fengtian business and industry to Qing developments. Not to mention our joint actions.

On the topic of C-KMT war, assuming Wu and I are not in unfriendly relationship; then we could conduct some controlled strikes along the coast. Seeing C-KMT doesn't have a navy and coastal cities is where the money are. Of course the partisans will be problematic, but some population relocation should cut down their zone of movement. No such thing as unidentifiable combatant if there are no civilians in the area.
K-KMT on the other hand should try to eat that province stranded within, while trying to purge out partisan cells.

@DanBaque Sorry.

 

[DanBaque]

@DanBaque Sorry.

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Don't worry about it, we're two sifferent factions, eventually we were fairly likely to end up at war.
I'm fairly confident anyways in holding out. Only large worry is the possibility of Japanese intervention.

 

[Mortenkam]

On the topic of C-KMT war, assuming Wu and I are not in unfriendly relationship; then we could conduct some controlled strikes along the coast. Seeing C-KMT doesn't have a navy and coastal cities is where the money are. Of course the partisans will be problematic, but some population relocation should cut down their zone of movement. No such thing as unidentifiable combatant if there are no civilians in the area.
K-KMT on the other hand should try to eat that province stranded within, while trying to purge out partisan cells.

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Seems like a good plan, we could also have Ma Fuxiang and the Ma Clique attack from the north, while K-KMT attaks from the south and the west.

- Military Governor of Qinghai: Ma Fuxiang - 10,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions) & 5,000 conscripts, 5 artillery pieces, 500 horses.

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Here is the size of his army.

- Military Governor of Xikang: Liu Wenhui - 15,000 regulars (roughly 1 division), 20,000 irregulars, 10,000 horses.

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And here is the size of the army C-KMT has in the area, so it should most likely be the softest target of them all.

 

[DanBaque]

In case you didn't see it @Mortenkam

- In the event of a war against the leftists, Chiang Kai Shek will be given an army and sent to relieve the enemy's likely first target: Jiangxi led by Li Liejun.

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This is currently Terrafirma's plan if war comes about.

 

[Mortenkam]

In case you didn't see it @Mortenkam
This is currently Terrafirma's plan if war comes about.

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Thanks.

On the topic of C-KMT war, assuming Wu and I are not in unfriendly relationship; then we could conduct some controlled strikes along the coast. Seeing C-KMT doesn't have a navy and coastal cities is where the money are. Of course the partisans will be problematic, but some population relocation should cut down their zone of movement. No such thing as unidentifiable combatant if there are no civilians in the area.
K-KMT on the other hand should try to eat that province stranded within, while trying to purge out partisan cells.

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If we are trying to attack them over water, then an interesting idea could be to get Japan to hand over Canton to us, instead of just letting C-KMT get it back, then we would have a beachhead and denied them access to one of their centers of industry. There is of course at least three problems with the plan, the first if Japan would be willing. The second problem would be that we would have a hard time holding Canton, since it would require a decent fleet to supply it, and C-KMT would try to overwhelm it with numbers. The third problem would likely be that working with Japan would make us look bad. So what do you people think?

 

[VoidZero]

If we are trying to attack them over water, then an interesting idea could be to get Japan to hand over Canton to us, instead of just letting C-KMT get it back, then we would have a beachhead and denied them access to one of their centers of industry. There is of course at least three problems with the plan, the first if Japan would be willing. The second problem would be that we would have a hard time holding Canton, since it would require a decent fleet to supply it, and C-KMT would try to overwhelm it with numbers. The third problem would likely be that working with Japan would make us look bad. So what do you people think?

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Frame the hand over of Canton to Qing within the negotiation as joint anti-bolshevism and protecting private individual's right to belonging. Then invite the British and French to rebuild the war torn Canton while keeping peace, the tax from Canton would of course be split up between Qing and GPs; even if Qing get a token sum. A Qing's anti-bolshevism act for Mongolia rebellion in spirit.

 

[DanBaque]

I take it the war is going to be this turn? Or are you planning just in case, or still thinking?

The third problem would likely be that working with Japan would make us look bad

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The Qing already look bad for not doing anything agaist Japan: the group that might really take it bad is Xueliang's army. They've just gotten out of a war with Japan, and now they're allying with the invaders and traitors against an ex-ally that also fought against Japan? Doesn't look too good for morale.

 

[baboushreturns]

[X]Tang Jiyao
[X] Plan: Crouching Tiger, Raging Dragon

- The Right KMT will keep its options open but will grudgingly begin further, more intimate communications with Prince Chun looking to cement not only nominal trade but cooperation against the rising CPC. In the event of war, Tang Jiyao will work with the rest of his posse to give material aid to the Qing, if the situation warrants it, however, the RKMT will join the fray on their terms against the Communists.
- In the field of subtlety, Jiyao will make the first move. His eager agents will attempt to shake up the CPC-LKMT alliance going as far as wet work to stop the Reds.
- In the event of a war against the leftists, Chiang Kai Shek will be given an army and sent to relieve the enemy's likely first target: Jiangxi led by Li Liejun.
- Officer's initiative will be observed for a more decentralized command structure during any conflict.

[ X ] Recognize the Emperor's peace with China.

 

[Fingon888]

[X]Tang Jiyao
[X] Plan: Crouching Tiger, Raging Dragon

- The Right KMT will keep its options open but will grudgingly begin further, more intimate communications with Prince Chun looking to cement not only nominal trade but cooperation against the rising CPC. In the event of war, Tang Jiyao will work with the rest of his posse to give material aid to the Qing, if the situation warrants it, however, the RKMT will join the fray on their terms against the Communists.
- In the field of subtlety, Jiyao will make the first move. His eager agents will attempt to shake up the CPC-LKMT alliance going as far as wet work to stop the Reds.
- In the event of a war against the leftists, Chiang Kai Shek will be given an army and sent to relieve the enemy's likely first target: Jiangxi led by Li Liejun.
- Officer's initiative will be observed for a more decentralized command structure during any conflict.

[ X ] Recognize the Emperor's peace with China.

 

[Mortenkam]

I take it the war is going to be this turn? Or are you planning just in case, or still thinking?

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Well, if we want to try to get Japan to hand over Canton, then we need to do it this turn, before Japan leaves Canton.

Frame the hand over of Canton to Qing within the negotiation as joint anti-bolshevism and protecting private individual's right to belonging. Then invite the British and French to rebuild the war torn Canton while keeping peace, the tax from Canton would of course be split up between Qing and GPs; even if Qing get a token sum. A Qing's anti-bolshevism act for Mongolia rebellion in spirit.

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I think this sounds like a good idea, though the big weakness I can see from it, is that people think we are handing more land over to foreigners. Also I am unsure if you meant that Qing would handle security or if the British and French was meant to help, because I am unsure if we could handel it on our own.

The Qing already look bad for not doing anything agaist Japan: the group that might really take it bad is Xueliang's army. They've just gotten out of a war with Japan, and now they're allying with the invaders and traitors against an ex-ally that also fought against Japan? Doesn't look too good for morale.

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You might have a point, but just as important, if not more, it is unlikely that Japan wants to hand land over to people who they just have been to war with, so it is likely better if Wu's men handles the handover, if we do it.

 

[DanBaque]

You might have a point, but just as important, if not more, it is unlikely that Japan wants to hand land over to people who they just have been to war with, so it is likely better if Wu's men handles the handover, if we do it.

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So the idea is for @ZealousThoughts to add it to Wu's plan?

Well, if we want to try to get Japan to hand over Canton, then we need to do it this turn, before Japan leaves Canton.

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Precisely. If you take over Canton, that'll be counted as a declaration of war, as you're occupying Left-KMT territory. I was asking, as since you haven't modified your plans in any way.
To quote Dadarian:

Although humiliating to many within the Qing, in truth the reforms had shown just how weak the internal Qing structures were, and how utterly unprepared they were for a war.

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[Mortenkam]

So the idea is for @ZealousThoughts to add it to Wu's plan?

Precisely. If you take over Canton, that'll be counted as a declaration of war, as you're occupying Left-KMT territory. I was asking, as since you haven't modified your plans in any way.
To quote Dadarian:

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First, yeah, I think it would be best if Wu did it since he has the men to support the venture, if we were going to do it.
Second, I am first going to change my plan when/if we come to a agrement. I kind of what to hear what @ZealousThoughts thinks about it before finally deciding.
Third, you may be right, but I will refer to what you wrote earlier.

Mortenkam, the whole "paper tiger" thing, is without the warlords. You're hardly going to get the warlords to support your plan to try to make them obsolete by telling them that they are currently the base of Qing power, and without them you are nothing. Of course, that's just my interpretation of the matter, it could work if you twist it somehow.

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I am unsure if it is just Qing that is unprepared for war or if it is also our warlords, though at least one ought to think that the Fengtian clique had the ability to do warfare after holding Japan back.

 

[DanBaque]

I am unsure if it is just Qing that is unprepared for war or if it is also our warlords, though at least one ought to think that the Fengtian clique had the ability to do warfare after holding Japan back.

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Most warlords (those under Wu) are part of the Qing structure. If the economic structure is weak, it matters little how much power you can bring to bear at the start- the war'll be lost. Still, if your going to wait for ZT to state their opinions, I will too. No sense in three people (one of which has no part in it) talking about a decision that cannot be made without two others.

Besides, that, I may have unconsciouslymisled you: after all, the Right-KMT still fights with you, and has "the second finest army in China". I've been talking about the Qing army, not that of the Right-KMT.

 

[VoidZero]

Just so everyone is on the same page, I can think of many ideas but some of those might be questionable.

I think this sounds like a good idea, though the big weakness I can see from it, is that people think we are handing more land over to foreigners. Also I am unsure if you meant that Qing would handle security or if the British and French was meant to help, because I am unsure if we could handel it on our own.

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Perhaps if we did not station any soldier there, but if we do station an army and hires British/French company for reconstruction and asks they to bring security to protect against banditry; then it's different. You can also call on the wealthy as well as the poorer people in the Qing land to work and invest there to gain legitimacy.

Precisely. If you take over Canton, that'll be counted as a declaration of war, as you're occupying Left-KMT territory.

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The war was hot before the Manchurian war, and while there was murmur about nonaggression during the war, it didn't happen cause Cao get beaten to death.

I am unsure if it is just Qing that is unprepared for war or if it is also our warlords, though at least one ought to think that the Fengtian clique had the ability to do warfare after holding Japan back.

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Not if Wu is trying to take mah army, also my army is almost done reforming. Also I will need to really dig in if getting surrounded on all sides against, also need to replace the city communists with my loyalist. All of which are expensive and time consuming.

 

[Mortenkam]

Not if Wu is trying to take mah army, also my army is almost done reforming. Also I will need to really dig in if getting surrounded on all sides against, also need to replace the city communists with my loyalist. All of which are expensive and time consuming.

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I do not think you need to worry about Japan attacking again just yet, since then they would not had made a peace deal, but true it would likely be best if Wu backed off, if we started the war this turn.

Perhaps if we did not station any soldier there, but if we do station an army and hires British/French company for reconstruction and asks they to bring security to protect against banditry; then it's different. You can also call on the wealthy as well as the poorer people in the Qing land to work and invest there to gain legitimacy.

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True, that sounds decent and perhaps worth a shot.

So if we were to declare war this turn, then warplan might be something like this.

• Start with a attempt to get Japan to hand over Canton to Qing and Wu's men, and then we invite England and France to help secure and develop it. We will portrait it as a act against communists.
• Wu and Zhang will likely focus the coast line, at least if we got Japan to hand over Canton.
• K-KMT will focus linking up with rest of their territory, perhaps sparing some troops for an attack on Xikang.
• Prince Chun will attempt to convince the Ma Clique to also attack Xikang, perhaps with support from the Xinjiang Clique.
• Prince Chun/Qing will raise and arm as many conscripts as they can to help the fight.
• Prince Chun will attempt to secure as much war supplies, perhaps from the Germans.

@ZealousThoughts @VoidZero @Terrafirma Does the plan seem reasonable? Something I ought to change?

 

[ZealousThoughts]

I believe fighting this turn without significant reform of economy and/or the moving of the Manchurian armies towards the Yangtze and setting him up as an official down there might be wise.

This turn can and should be preparations and gathering strength.

 

[DanBaque]

I believe fighting this turn without significant reform of economy and/or the moving of the Manchurian armies towards the Yangtze and setting him up as an official down there might be wise.

This turn can and should be preparations and gathering strength.

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You mean unwise? Or are you saying small battles and skirmishing would be good, but no grand assaults?

 

[Mortenkam]

I believe fighting this turn without significant reform of economy and/or the moving of the Manchurian armies towards the Yangtze and setting him up as an official down there might be wise.

This turn can and should be preparations and gathering strength.

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You might be right that we ought to wait a turn, the biggest reason I got for wanting to do it this turn is because it would give us a chance of us getting Canton, C-KMT's capital and one of their centers of industry. I am unsure if we need to spend a turn on just moving armies, and I kind of do not want to give him one of my/Qin's loyal provinces. I would prefer if he conquered one himself. When it comes to economy, then we likely have enough money, since our spending is medium/low, though you likely meant our war economy and the amount of military equipment and supplies, which we likely are going to be low on because of the lack of industry. We might be able to buy some supplies off the Germans though.

In the end, it is going to be risky and honestly it would need to be K-KMT that do the heavy lifting, if we did this.

 

[VoidZero]

Maybe i will just go summon doom again. Mongolia is nice this time of the year.

 

[DanBaque]

• Start with a attempt to get Japan to hand over Canton to Qing and Wu's men, and then we invite England and France to help secure and develop it. We will portrait it as a act against communists.

• Wu and Zhang will likely focus the coast line, at least if we got Japan to hand over Canton.

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This is something I'm a bit confused by: are you saying that, should you take Canton, you'll give it over to Franco-British administration, ask them to send military forces to garrison it, then use it as a base for attacking around the coast? It seems very likely to go wrong- how do you expect them to accept defending it when they know it's very likely to be attacked?

Maybe i will just go summon doom again. Mongolia is nice this time of the year.

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Let's hope you do! But really, can't see anything really risky in your plan-except giving out even more concessions to foreign powers. What do you mean by Mongolia, though? As far as I know, it's Soviet.

 

[VoidZero]

This is something I'm a bit confused by: are you saying that, should you take Canton, you'll give it over to Franco-British administration, ask them to send military forces to garrison it, then use it as a base for attacking around the coast? It seems very likely to go wrong- how do you expect them to accept defending it when they know it's very likely to be attacked?

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Having the negotiation with Japanese and call for GPs business occur in parallel, play on their fear of a great Red Surge from China that floods all of Asia/South Asia/India. That might get GPs attention, and we are sweetening the deal with the Canton taxes. Sort of turning Canton into a giant international settlement for business. No skin off Qing's nose.

Let's hope you do! But really, can't see anything really risky in your plan-except giving out even more concessions to foreign powers. What do you mean by Mongolia, though? As far as I know, it's Soviet.

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IE i start a war with Mongolia aka USSR aka summoning doom.