A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

@Dadarian I got a couple of questions.

First, how does economy: tax income work, since I find it hard to believe that the tongs have a better economy, than C-KMT?

Second, why did you this time chose a different point to end the turn, than 1. January? Was it because of the treaty?

Third, how much more power does a vote in support of a person add to what he does, like how much is it the deciding factor in how well in goes for that person?

Fourth, how much of a navy do the different factions have?

The economy is on a relative scale, so it's not as if the Tongs have a bigger economy than the C-KMT, it's just relatively the Tongs have low spending and effective ways of producing income. Equally relative the C-KMT has high spending and is only in the process of bringing more effective taxation to the table. I hope that clears it up a tad, it's not as if the Tongs could pay the expenses of the C-KMT because of the stats.

It was because of the treaty.

It's essentially 1/3rd number of votes, 1/3rd dice rolls, and 1/3rd quality of orders. So vote numbers lower or raise the rolling thresholds, while good plans are easier and not as good plans or more out there plans are harder. It's why I keep the mechanics hidden, they're complicated and bulky.

The only navy left is the Qing's remnants of the Beiyang Navy, although the Tongs do have assorted junks and the C-KMT have a series of smaller ships.
 
@Dadarian What does the different levels of spending means, when it comes to spending more or less than what a factions earn? Like, does a spending level high means that one is spending more than one earns and one is using of ones reserves?

Also when are you thinking of closing the vote? I was thinking about looking over my plan one more time, but I am waiting for @ZealousThoughts to post his plan for Wu Peifu first.
 
@Dadarian What does the different levels of spending means, when it comes to spending more or less than what a factions earn? Like, does a spending level high means that one is spending more than one earns and one is using of ones reserves?

Also when are you thinking of closing the vote? I was thinking about looking over my plan one more time, but I am waiting for @ZealousThoughts to post his plan for Wu Peifu first.

Spending is entirely internal, so spending is within your capacity to spend. If you spend a large percentage or more than you make in income, your spending stats rises. Comparing the C-KMT to the K-KMT doesn't really work because the stats aren't designed for comparisons, rather they're designed for knowing what's happening within the individual nations. I'm not comfortable making stats anymore complicated then what they are already.

I was going to close the vote a little after Zealous posts, just so that any following talking can be wrapped up.
 
Got a couple of questions, Dadarian:

Further it is only thanks to the extensive industrialisation of Hunan and Changsha (even if it was made entirely by hand)
Does this mean that the factories/foundries/arsenals... were built by hand, because of a lack of equpment, or/and that the factories do not use industrial power, but use artesanal work?

reports indicated that spending was reaching record levels, most notably in building materials for fortifications and pay cheques to volunteer civilian labour battalions.
Next turn, when the building of fortifications/paying civilian labour battalions has stopped, would spending be lowered (as long as they aren't replaced with something else)? Or would it be debt that has to be paid off?
 
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Got a couple of questions, Dadarian:

Does this mean that the factories/foundries/arsenals... were built by hand, because of a lack of equpment, or/and that the factories do not use industrial power, but use artesanal work?

Next turn, when the building of fortifications/paying civilian labour battalions has stopped, would spending be lowered (as long as they aren't replaced with something else)? Or would it be debt that has to be paid off?

Artisanal work and lowered spending respectively. I don't really have any interest into getting into loans, interest rates, and the like so we're just going to ignore those.
 
@Dadarian
Can the Emperor win if he unifies China? (Tall order i know.)
Does the Fengtian clique have okay relationship with British, Franco, and Hans to get a business delegation sent to their countries for industry tour / military business?
Generally what is the Emperor view with the GPs?
Does the Japanese have any open contact in China apart from the Qing and Manchukuo?
What's peasant's general sentiments across China? Revolution fever? Full stomach and their own land?
Are there trade barrier / internal tariffs within Qing land? Say i want to sell stuff to Ma clique, who if any do i need to pay tax to?
 
The economy is on a relative scale, so it's not as if the Tongs have a bigger economy than the C-KMT, it's just relatively the Tongs have low spending and effective ways of producing income. Equally relative the C-KMT has high spending and is only in the process of bringing more effective taxation to the table. I hope that clears it up a tad, it's not as if the Tongs could pay the expenses of the C-KMT because of the stats.

The only navy left is the Qing's remnants of the Beiyang Navy, although the Tongs do have assorted junks and the C-KMT have a series of smaller ships.

Are the assorted junks the junks of the fishermen Tong members?

Also, huh, so I'm aflush with money huh? Neat.
 
[*]Wu Peifu
[*]Peace Accepted with Japan.

Plan - Consolidation Continues:
  • As marshal of the Empire, Wu Peifu holds significant away over the military of the Qing and is very aware of the massive numerical disparity between the KMT factions to the South and the Qing. To this end Wu Peifu feels that the strength of the Empire needs to be both centralised and modernised.
    • The first step of this has to regard the Green Banner Army which has been left without commander and woefully under-supplied. As such Wu Peifu will send correspondance to the divisional and brigade commanders offering them commission under himself and within his command structure and promising secure supply and pay.
    • In addition to this, Wu Peifu will look to raise an additional 20,000 men (2 divisions), reaching out to those who fled from the Socialists in the south to help form the core of these divisions.
  • With the continuing meddling of the soviets and the increasing prevelence of Soviet aid to the KMT, Wu Peifu will gather evidence of their significant influence and arming of a 'Giant Communist Army' to the South which he will propogate in Chinese Media and introduce as an idea to the west. His propaganda campaign will outline him as the main opponent to this wave of socialism.
    • To this end contact will be made to as many people formerly of influence in the South and former men of influence from within the Manchuria that Zhang Xueliang lost and offer them positions of influence within the Greater Zhili to help pool some funds and specialists.
  • Contact will be made with Portugal, France, the United States and the United Kingdom asking for access to the needed specialists and materials to improve northern industry to allow for the support of a greater and more modern army.
    • Specifically the United Kingdom will be contacted, outlining the KMT-Qing struggle as the USSR's attempt to reignite the Great Game of old. The British will be asked if there might business men interested in investing in the Qing economy. Loans will also be sought with collateral (privately) to be discussed as and when the idea of loans is approved.
    • Military trainers from the United States shall be hired and a greater number of machine gun begin to he procured alongside more modern artillery.
  • With the offer made from Zhang Xueliang a response will be given in the form of offering Zhang an officer position subordinate to Marshal Wu Peifu and with it both greater influence in China and greater access to supply. These offers, alongside effusive, eloquent praise and offers of influence and pay wil be extended to the vast majority of the senior officers under Zhang Xueliang.
  • The remains of the Beiyang fleet shall begin to be brought back into working condition and start to be used to patrol the Qing coastal area, looking to clear any pirates and push them south to safer KMT ports.
 
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With the offer made from Zhang Xueliang a response will be given in the form of offering Zhang an officer position subordinate to Marshal Wu Peifu and with it both greater influence in China and greater access to supply. These offers, alongside effusive, eloquent praise and offers of influence and pay wil be extended to the vast majority of the senior officers under Zhang Xueliang.

This is the reason i have trust issues.
@DanBaque @Mortenkam @Terrafirma

Any plans re:civil war? Having an actual Qing force that sort of fall under the same command will be...... annoying for all of us.
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Walk with Zhang Xueliang and together we will bring thunder, fire, and overabundance of dakka to all our enemies! There is no difference between Wu Peifu, Zhang Zongchang, and Japanese; they are all selling China to the Great Powers across the water!

[] Zhang Xueliang
-[] Yes, bitterly accept Qing throne's negotiated peace
-[] Square zero
  1. Negotiate with Prince regent for faction survival and mutual cooperation. Zhang faction will exchange military and industrial development know-how for everything that it needs. Emperor, and the Prince regent by extension, will be guiding the direction of Zhang's political weight.
  2. Continue military modernization and reward the military for loyalty. Welcome the German officers officially and sound them out about sending more officers for massive expansion of Fengtian military academy; they, their support staff, and family are of course paid salary and given visa equivalent.
  3. Send out international invitations and hiring advertisements for expansion of the Zuolin technical university and additional branches in medical and civil developments. (Xu Shichang's job)
  4. Work with the business and industry for investment and upgrades for Zhang enclaves' industrial sector and further cooperation with Germans. Focus will be on producing more advanced weapons and improving effectiveness of existing weapons. Flood non-Wu militaries within Qing with cheap and old weapons, sold at rate slightly above cost.
  5. Work with the business, military, and industry to setup the Zhang industrial investment and development corporation. Hire/invite the loyal but now poor business and industrial people into the fold. This corporation will make money by investing into Qing's budding industry as well as providing consultation services for industrial development and selling industrial goods. Investment and development consultation services will be limited to Qing and foreign entity for the time being, this means Wu faction, Japan, USSR, and groups the Emperor doesn't like are declined. Industrial goods can be said to include weapons and ammunition, buyer will not be checked but have to pay in cash or cash equivalent.
  6. Conduct public relationship campaign, ensuring all personnel worked and working for Fengtian clique had and will continue to be paid and taken care for. Reinforce their love and loyalty for Zhang Xueliang with mentions of promises kept and vow that Xueliang will lead them back to Manchuria with their head held high. (Xu Shichang's job)
 
Walk with Zhang Xueliang and together we will bring thunder, fire, and overabundance of dakka to all our enemies! There is no difference between Wu Peifu, Zhang Zongchang, and Japanese; they are all selling China to the Great Powers across the water!

*Points at first turn of a Zhang literally selling Chinese land, ongoing kowtowing to Germany and consistent efforts to break independent by undermining the state.*
 
*Points at first turn of a Zhang literally selling Chinese land, ongoing kowtowing to Germany and consistent efforts to break independent by undermining the state.*

"That was dad's policy and had no direct relationship to the ongoing policy of this administration." "Germans are a post colonial country and thus kosher, GPs with special concessions within China is of course still unfriendly. Also i fought against Japanese army and it totally proved this administration's loyalty to ONE CHINA." >.>
*points to Wu's skyrocketing ambition of ruling China and actual control over great part of China, without actually doing anything against the Japanese menace or the massive GP concession.

Edit: Also, that land was part of British India thus not part of the Power across water. :V
 
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Any plans re:civil war? Having an actual Qing force that sort of fall under the same command will be...... annoying for all of us.
Well, it's going to happen eventually. Most likely sooner rather than later, to capitalize on Qing weakness. Given the fact that even with your army the Qing are much weaker than the Changsha-KMT, and since it's going to be a long, industrial war...
What would you want in exchange for switching sides?

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@Shaseyu
- Recreate the Tongmenghui within Qing China, creating a secret society and resistance movement linked to the Left-KMT. Concentrate particularly in the cities near to the Left-KMT. Hanyang 88s and other arms will be smuggled over if possible.

Could you also do this? Either helping the Tongmenghui, or expanding the secret societies that the CPC already has in Qing China to also include the cities.

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China must unite in freedom and liberty! Vote for Liao Zhongkai!

[]Liao Zhongkai
-[] Plan Peace for Victory
-[] Do you recognise publicly the Emperor's Peace with China? Yes
1. The Left-KMT financial situation is disastrous. This situation must be quickly reformed:
-- A tax reform, as the tax system in the Left-KMT is antiquated, based on old Qing methods, and inefficient. Set up: a strong georgist, land-value tax, a small VAT tax, a medium-to-large progressive tax, a medium capital gains tax, and a medium marginal income tax. All other taxes in use will be abolished once the new ones are applied.
-- Various unexplored or unexcavated ore deposits will be rented out (for up to 12 years, and a written promise that the contract will likely be theirs afterwards) to anyone willing to invest in them. If the buyers are Chinese workers willing to create mining cooperatives, they will be allowed to use them with a smaller rent, and buy them outright or in stages.
-- Reform the Chinese Central bank to be more efficient and work better, and to combat inflation while still using the silver yuan. At the same time, it will create a new unit of currency, named the Republican Chinese Dollar, which will be accepted as legal tender by the Goverment, but not convertible to silver (fiat money). It will be accepted as legal tender for taxation (to show confidence in it), and initially given the same value as the silver yuan. It will not be printed on a massive scale, to avoid high inflation.
-- Besides all this, if the government is threatened by bankruptcy, then temporarily costs and payments will be slightly cut, particularly in industrial development.
2. Chinese civilian industry is woeful. It is in dire need of an expansion (this shall all be done with the aid of what Soviet engineers and knowledge can be gained):
- Create a hydroelectric industry in China (run-of-the-river and dams), with both the army engineers and civilians working to create them (maintanance and occupation shall only be done by civilian workers). The new sources of electricity will be used to electrify the industry ( military factories first).
- Continue mechanization of agriculture, funded by both the state when financially possible and the farmers and communes themselves, who will be subsidized.
- Have the Bureau of Infrastructure create factories where train engines and railroads can be built, with the first railroad built going from the factories of Canton to the mines that supply it. If it is possible, begin creating a polycentric rail network that unites all the mayor industrial and trade centers in Left-KMT China and the mines that supply them.
3. Now that the war with Japan is over, the conditions of the Chinese people must rise:
- Labor rights will be expanded thoroughly, with these conditions: 8-hour, 5 day workweek, a month of paid vacation plus 15 day holidays around the year, complete freedom of association, the right of collective bargaining, prohibition of child labor, the right to strike, and a living wage, enshrined in law.
In the case of military factories/ workplaces that produce war materiel, strikes are also legal, but only after negotiation has been attempted. The aim of this reform, besides bettering the conditions of the industrial working class, is to make sure that any product made in Chinese factories (such as bullets, rifles…) does not have flaws/is more reliable due to the worker not being exhausted and distracted, even though production as a whole will be lowered. The other aim is to gain more civilian support for Liao Zhongkai (and the Left-KMT), the architect and promoter of this reform. In order for factories to still be filled, there will be calls for chinese from the Qing and the Right-KMT (or anywhere else) to come work in the Left-KMT where it is plentiful and conditions are great.
- As workers shall have more free time, townhall/city square open-air literacy classes shall be given to those who desire it by any literate volunteer. The KMT will ask (and organize) its members to participate, both in the learning and the teaching. (Soong Ching-Ling)
- Presidential and legislative elections will also be held, with the old independent special committee reformed to be sure of impartiality. Liao Zhongkai will campaign as candidate under the KMT banner.

4. Reform the KMT party , in preparation for the upcoming elections, to gain as many votes for the Left-KMT as possible:
- Shift the KMT organization to be even more of a mass party, permitting all sorts of people to join, for a very small fee, that can be waived if the member is found to be of low-income. This will also be used to propagate KMT ideas into the countryside and increase the membership as much as possible, as it is the KMT that proposes that peasants can have true revolutionary spirit.
- Recreate the Tongmenghui within Qing China, creating a secret society and resistance movement linked to the Left-KMT. Hanyang 88s and other arms will be smuggled over if possible.
- Liao Zhongkai will create a pressure group of members of the KMT that are more left-leaning (not necessarily communist, can be sindicalist, anarchist, councilist... or just more left-leaning than the avergae KMT) than the rest and want to keep and expand democracy, called the Revolutionary Comitee of the KMT. Naturally, if a right-wing pressure group forms, it will be allowed, but watched in case it has something to do with the Right-KMT.
- In order to not alienate the anarchist democratic groups, the anarchists that were chased out of Guangzhou by the Japanese invasion (in OTL they where chased out by the KMT, but since no order like that was given, and no internal repression has been done, I'm assuming they were still in their spaces) will be allowed to return to the neighbourhoods that they controlled, as long as they continue to pay their taxes. This will also be used to keep the anarchist members of the KMT (examples: 1, 2, 3, 4) in it and happy, as their influential relationship with the Chinese student education groups in Tokyo and Paris will allow for more chinese to be sent to study there, and more knowledge to be sent to China.
- If the Right-KMT does not participate in the elections, they shall be lambasted due to their little love of democracy and Chinese unity.
5. Have Tang Shaoyi negotiate with all powers outside of China for more trade deals and greater investment: (Tang Shaoyi)
- Conditions for the investment will be made welcoming, with slightly lower taxes and tarriffs (if you invest) for this year.
-Negotiations with the Soviet Union shall be continued now that they can, with aid being asked for once again, in this case for experts in the mechanization of agriculture, aid for the creation of railways and train engines and constructing civilian industry, the selling/gifting of spare artillery, airplanes, trucks... And as always, officers to teach at Whampoa. Offer raw materials, food, and whatever China can supply that they are in need of (not workers).
6. Now that the war is over, the armaments industry must be reformed:
-- Standardize small arms production, choosing the Howell as the rifle for the Army (and, though at second-place, also for the militias), while other rifles are given to the militias or kept in storage (in cities/fortified towns) when they are no longer needed.
-- Reform the armaments industry to ensure the reliability of its production, especially ammunition.
 
"That was dad's policy and had no direct relationship to the ongoing policy of this administration." "Germans are a post colonial country and thus kosher, GPs with special concessions within China is of course still unfriendly. Also i fought against Japanese army and it totally proved this administration's loyalty to ONE CHINA." >.>
*points to Wu's skyrocketing ambition of ruling China and actual control over great part of China, without actually doing anything against the Japanese menace or the massive GP concession.

Edit: Also, that land was part of British India thus not part of the Power across water. :V

I am not actually ceding any of China.

Rather if Qing defaults on debt a concession of KMT land would go to Britain until debt is repaid.

Germany also had concession in China until less than a decade previously.

To your average Chinese intellectual they are just as bad as the rest and indeed were some of the harshest at The Boxer Rebellion peace talks.
 
Well, it's going to happen eventually. Most likely sooner rather than later, to capitalize on Qing weakness. Given the fact that even with your army the Qing are much weaker than the Changsha-KMT, and since it's going to be a long, industrial war...
What would you want in exchange for switching sides?

Victory? :V Probably not going to work. Actually switching side is not going to work cause your left leans way too far to the left, me and company needs their wealth.

I am not actually ceding any of China.

Rather if Qing defaults on debt a concession of KMT land would go to Britain until debt is repaid.

Germany also had concession in China until less than a decade previously.

To your average Chinese intellectual they are just as bad as the rest and indeed were some of the harshest at The Boxer Rebellion peace talks.

Errrr, the GPs are aware the difference between Qing and KMT.
Nah people's mind aren't unlimited, and the most recent Japanese war and traitors will push out the old stuff.
 
Spending is entirely internal, so spending is within your capacity to spend. If you spend a large percentage or more than you make in income, your spending stats rises. Comparing the C-KMT to the K-KMT doesn't really work because the stats aren't designed for comparisons, rather they're designed for knowing what's happening within the individual nations. I'm not comfortable making stats anymore complicated then what they are already.
The thing I am interested in is having a idea where the line is between longterm healthy and unhealthy levels of spending, like is the medium level of spending, when ones income and expenses is more or less equal?
@Dadarian, when is voting period ending?
I was going to close the vote a little after Zealous posts, just so that any following talking can be wrapped up.
I am assuming that it is ending soon, since Zealous has posted.
Generally what is the Emperor view with the GPs?
On the emperors Wikipedia page, it mentions that his English teacher, Sir Reginald Johnston, was a person that the emperor, Puyi, had a lot of respect for him and that because of Johnston, the emperor thought that Westerners were the most intelligent and civilized people in the world, though I do not know what our version of the emperor believes.
This is the reason i have trust issues.
@DanBaque @Mortenkam @Terrafirma

Any plans re:civil war? Having an actual Qing force that sort of fall under the same command will be...... annoying for all of us.
Well, after looking on the numbers, then if Qing and K-KMT allied, then we ought to have both the advantage of the number of soldiers and how well train they are, plus a lot more artillery, so if we allied against the C-KMT and the communists, then we would have a big chance of winning or at least push them back. The biggest weakness we would have compared to C-KMT is the lack of a airforce and the lack of a proper industry. If I read @Dadarian's description of K-KMT's economy, then they need to strike soon or else they might not be able to maintain their armies, so the attack would likely have to be soon, to avoid that.

About Wu Peifu's attempt to consolidate nearly all soldiers in the Qing empire under him, then I would prefer that Zhang Xueliang stayed independent as a counterweight, so it would be harder for Wu to make a coup against the emperor. In the long term I want to remove the autonomy of the warlord and instead have a proper centralized government under the emperor, though at the moment I have no plans for truly reigning Wu in. I am thinking about raising a proper army loyal to the emperor, besides the Imperial Guard, that I have created.
 
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I mean, elections are still going to happen, right?
Yes. At most they might be slightly late.

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I am thinking about raising a proper army loyal to the emperor, besides the Imperial Guard, that I have created.
Given that the Marshal's loyalty is uncertain, perhaps creating a separate structure loyal to Prince Chun and the Emperor. Maybe expanding the "support staff"(which would really just be normak divisions) for the IG. Or creating a separate command for Garrisons, which would be organized, paid and supplied by the central government.

Edit: wording was impolite. Sorry.
 
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Yes. At most they might be slightly late.

Then block voting it is. And at the same time expanding the businesses and membership.

I may financially and economically poke the Japanese from time to time in the future to keep up some pressure for Shanghai.

I will win back my money and take over Japan's economy! Mwahahahahaha!
 
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Note: Wu Peifu historically was a Chinese nationalist and why would he want to replace the Emperor at all? He is clearly in the favour of the Emperor and has been given responsibility for the Emperor's safety in that he controls well......everything in and around the capital.

I mean should Prince Chen or indeed the Manchurians start acting against him, he might assume they are acting without the Emperor's consent, why else would they act against the man who has done nothing to hurt the Empire?
 
Note: Wu Peifu historically was a Chinese nationalist and why would he want to replace the Emperor at all? He is clearly in the favour of the Emperor and has been given responsibility for the Emperor's safety in that he controls well......everything in and around the capital.

I mean should Prince Chen or indeed the Manchurians start acting against him, he might assume they are acting without the Emperor's consent, why else would they act against the man who has done nothing to hurt the Empire?
It is good to know that Wu is loyal to the emperor. It is not like I have a problem with him, it is more that in the long run I want to centralize power and stop having autonomous warlord in control of large armies and right now, Wu is a autonomous warlord in control of the biggest army in Qing. I have no plans of moving against him, and would prefer to work together with him against the enemies of the emperor.
 
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I mean should Prince Chen or indeed the Manchurians start acting against him, he might assume they are acting without the Emperor's consent, why else would they act against the man who has done nothing to hurt the Empire?
They aren't acting against him- the Manchurians are just disagreeing, and the Emperor has a right to a personal guard, no?

But yes, more negotiation between players would be better than just each one going their own way. For you anyway, I'd be extremely happy to have a civil war up north.
 
They aren't acting against him- the Manchurians are just disagreeing, and the Emperor has a right to a personal guard, no?

But yes, more negotiation between players would be better than just each one going their own way. For you anyway, I'd be extremely happy to have a civil war up north.

The Manchurians are acting against him by trying to intentionally ensure that all the regions he controls are made poorer through banning any investment or interest in their major plan to improve provinces. They also wish him to cede them land from his personal demesne, they should ask for land in the south on the volatile border that needs an experienced army down there.
 
The Manchurians are acting against him by trying to intentionally ensure that all the regions he controls are made poorer through banning any investment or interest in their major plan to improve provinces. They also wish him to cede them land from his personal demesne, they should ask for land in the south on the volatile border that needs an experienced army down there.
I don't think it is. As far as I know, Wu Peifu's personal demense (where he is the warlord, and he doesn't have any warlords under him controlling the territory) is ibetween the Yellow River and Beijing (Hubei, Henan...). All land north of that are just part of his clique.
they should ask for land in the south on the volatile border that needs an experienced army down there
This is the sort of thing I mean when I suggest negotiation: I doubt VoidZero knew there was the possiblity of gaining land in the South.
 
The Manchurians are acting against him by trying to intentionally ensure that all the regions he controls are made poorer through banning any investment or interest in their major plan to improve provinces. They also wish him to cede them land from his personal demesne, they should ask for land in the south on the volatile border that needs an experienced army down there.

Well, i can not interpret a response of luring my officers and business people as anything but hostile response. What did you expect to be honest?
 
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