A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

[kilopi505]

@DanBaque, can you hold off on attacking Canton? Wait until this happens and loses:

Quickly start subverting the Qing Governor's militia in Canton by secretly offering all of them Tong membership, money and escape routes for them and their families to safe places should the Left KMT come for Canton.

Once the Canton Militia is fully subverted, seize power behind the scenes, and make the Qing Governor of Canton the secret puppet of the Zhuhai Tong. Everything he does from this point onwards is vetted by the Tong leadership, and will be reported to Liao Zhongkai and Chiang Kai Shek for collaboration against the Qing.

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If it succeeds, Left KMT "civilians" will be allowed to purchase raw resources and civilian products in Canton in exchange not for CRD but for Salt, Gold, Silver and Jade. The factories in the city will only produce civilian products, sorry, but what the heck you can buy as many raw resources you want for the factories and workshops that you do have, and as many civilian products as you want, as long as "Civilians" do it. Like say...Mrs. Liao.

But note that Chiang Kai Shek will be sent receipts of all that is bought as a trade off for letting you buy what you can.

What do you say?

@Dadarian, are the American Colonel and French Major still in Shanghai?

What do you folks think of this edit:

Build more 65-35 Portuguese Majority owned Fish Farms in all the Tong controlled areas to increase food production and act as a diplomatic and political minefield vs. anyone with pillaging fantasies. And in coordination with this scheme inform Chiang Kai Shek and the Qing governor in Canton (In case scheme puppet governor fails) about these fish farms and their ownership so they could avoid a faux pas with the Western Powers should their factions reach these areas.

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Oh. @DanBaque, the definition of civilian can be stretched.

It is either a gun that fires .22 ammunition or a gun that uses black powder paper cartridges or black powder powder bags.

Fun fact. An Armstrong Gun is considered a civilian product because of those powder bags.

 

[ZealousThoughts]

The deal is sealed. Updated the entire thing but the deal in on point 3. :3 General improvements, i can see we working together to fund form/reform the health and civil building ministry; after all i do have an action to get people educated in those area.

Re: Ending Rivalry, if Wu will stop trying to eat me or poach my guys.

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Doing so is simple.

We formalise the Qing hierachy as such;

Emperor is overall leader
Chun is Civilian Leader
Wu Peifu head of all military
Zhang is a General of his armies subordinate to Wu.

 

[VoidZero]

Doing so is simple.

We formalise the Qing hierachy as such;

Emperor is overall leader
Chun is Civilian Leader
Wu Peifu head of all military
Zhang is a General of his armies subordinate to Wu.

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How about you keep this "deal" you try to peddle. I will sooner join the Japanese than to declare Xueliang a pawn of Wu.

 

[ZealousThoughts]

How about you keep this "deal" you try to peddle. I will sooner join the Japanese than to declare Xueliang a pawn of Wu.

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So you dont want to centralise and unify.

Good to know, I guessed that from you trying to ensure all of the forces Wu commands, which grew by the full Green Banner Army + 2 Divisions last turn and is the majority of Qing trained strength is weakened such that we lose.

 

[VoidZero]

So you dont want to centralise and unify.

Good to know, I guessed that from you trying to ensure all of the forces Wu commands, which grew by the full Green Banner Army + 2 Divisions last turn and is the majority of Qing trained strength is weakened such that we lose.

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Ha! Your victory more like, continued concentration of military power into Wu hand simply means you want to declare yourself an emperor like old Yuan.

Prove your loyalty and relinquish the sub commands to the Emperor, then we will speak of "Our Victory".

 

[ZealousThoughts]

Ha! Your victory more like, continued concentration of military power into Wu hand simply means you want to declare yourself an emperor like old Yuan.

Prove your loyalty and relinquish the sub commands to the Emperor, then we will speak of "Our Victory".

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I dont think I will when we have the son of Zhang 'Sell Off China' and 'Try and collapse China from within' still with influence.

 

[Mortenkam]

Call it as Ministry of Development and Ministry of Well being. Frame it as royal gift to the population for recognition of their work, can't get them loyal without bribing. Maybe check with the Emperor and see if he will record some nice speeches, then spread it in uneducated population centers for them to know who funded those gifts. Also think about revamping the tax system, not as extreme as South Republic; but to simplify it so people can have tiny bit more food, and call it a tax cut as well.

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I might end up with (re)making these ministries, though I have not decided yet, if it would be best to wait for the next turn or simply do it this turn. The idea about involving the emperor seems like a good idea. About the tax system, then it seems to be able to get taxes from a lot of people, but either it only gets a little from each or it is inefficient/corrupt and losses some of the money on the way to the top. If it already only gets a little, then it is more likely that I would raise taxes, but if the amount of tax received was because of problems with the tax systemet, then a reform definitely would be in order.

Hmm. I often do the opposite. Which caused a few problems, so I think I'll try a happy middle this turn.

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I think the biggest problem comes, when dealing with a faction like Tong, since they reliant a lot on not getting the attention of the people who are in power, since they would be easy to destroy, at least compared to C-KMT or Qing, so even a general plan taget at them could perhaps end them.

I am going to comment on the rest latter, but at the moment I am a bit busy.

 

[VoidZero]

I dont think I will when we have the son of Zhang 'Sell Off China' and 'Try and collapse China from within' still with influence.

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Rich coming from man of "I took my friend's everything when he died trying to defend China" and "I will eat this other guy in exchange for not betraying Empire."

 

[ZealousThoughts]

Rich coming from man of "I took my friend's everything when he died trying to defend China" and "I will eat this other guy in exchange for not betraying Empire."

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Wu Peifu has at no point done anything to disadvantage the Qing and has worked tirelessly to centralise power back around Beijing that has been dispersed.

He has also rebuilt a Qing navy and rather than just whoring out to a single nation and relying on them totally has found a plethora of western allies to avoid relying totally on one.

But you keep being you and if you continue to try and cut Wu out then know he will begin to actually act against you rather than OTL horsetrading that was the norm between warlord officers.

 

[VoidZero]

Wu Peifu has at no point done anything to disadvantage the Qing and has worked tirelessly to centralise power back around Beijing that has been dispersed.

He has also rebuilt a Qing navy and rather than just whoring out to a single nation and relying on them totally has found a plethora of western allies to avoid relying totally on one.

But you keep being you and if you continue to try and cut Wu out then know he will begin to actually act against you rather than OTL horsetrading that was the norm between warlord officers.

Click to shrink...

Sure self proclaimed Admiral Wu and proud owner of yet another army. Keep walking the path of Yuan Shikai and we will see who's the real threat to the empire. You can certainly count on Zhang faction to respond in kind, that's a promise.

 

[kilopi505]

Anyone for Du Yuesheng?! Anyone voting for Du Yuesheng?!

Anyone for Canton not becoming a warzone and not freaking the British into an overreaction? Anyone for peaceful, money making status quo while the political fights stay at words should vote for Du Yuesheng!

YES! DU! YUE! SHENG!

 

[ZealousThoughts]

Sure self proclaimed Admiral Wu and proud owner of yet another army. Keep walking the path of Yuan Shikai and we will see who's the real threat to the empire. You can certainly count on Zhang faction to respond in kind, that's a promise.

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You know the Beiyang fleet is traditionally subordinate to the Beiyang Army that Wu commands right? I just built it back up.

You also know that as Marshal of the Empire, Wu is the most senior military position in the Empire and thus sent a subordinate to command the Green Banner and bring it back under central control.

But sure the man who is trying to ensure the Republic wins by starving the Qing military of equipment while shipping those arms over Wu's Territory carry right on.

 

[DanBaque]

Salt is always needed, compared to gold and silver. Of course it's a good backer of currency.

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I don't doubt that, I just meant that the point of it was that it wasn't backed by anything. If there's going to be a currency backed by something, that's what the Yuan is for.

@DanBaque, can you hold off on attacking Canton? Wait until this happens and loses:

Quickly start subverting the Qing Governor's militia in Canton by secretly offering all of them Tong membership, money and escape routes for them and their families to safe places should the Left KMT come for Canton.

Once the Canton Militia is fully subverted, seize power behind the scenes, and make the Qing Governor of Canton the secret puppet of the Zhuhai Tong. Everything he does from this point onwards is vetted by the Tong leadership, and will be reported to Liao Zhongkai and Chiang Kai Shek for collaboration against the Qing.
If it succeeds, Left KMT "civilians" will be allowed to purchase raw resources and civilian products in Canton in exchange not for CRD but for Salt, Gold, Silver and Jade. The factories in the city will only produce civilian products, sorry, but what the heck you can buy as many raw resources you want for the factories and workshops that you do have, and as many civilian products as you want, as long as "Civilians" do it. Like say...Mrs. Liao.

But note that Chiang Kai Shek will be sent receipts of all that is bought as a trade off for letting you buy what you can.

What do you say?

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Canton is the most industrialized city in China, and was the former capital of the C-KMT. It's too important a city to lose, and if the attack is delayed, Qing reinforcements may well arrive, and make the fight harder. So, no, I cannot hold off, too risky. Besides, part of the artillery industry is there, and that's not something I'm prepared to give up.

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Wu Peifu has at no point done anything to disadvantage the Qing and has worked tirelessly to centralise power back around Beijing that has been dispersed.

He has also rebuilt a Qing navy and rather than just whoring out to a single nation and relying on them totally has found a plethora of western allies to avoid relying totally on one.

But you keep being you and if you continue to try and cut Wu out then know he will begin to actually act against you rather than OTL horsetrading that was the norm between warlord officers.

Click to shrink...

Yes, all this is true. But the thing is, if the army is centralized and Xueliang loses autonomy, he stops exisiting as a character that it is possible to vote for. So VoidZero has to be cautious there, and you haven't given him any proof that he won't become just another general in the army.

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@Shaseyu You have any problems with this being the part of the plan that deals with the coalition? Anything you'd like to add or change?

- The United Front will continue, with Zhang Guotao stepping down as Special Plenipotentiary of War, and Chen Duxiu being named President of the Examination Yuan, reforming it to his standards [Whatever you decide (more meritocratic, update the knowledge necessary.., but without attacking religion too much, and not being necessary to know political stuff to be a bureaucrat please]. The war effort will be fought together, using miltary forces in conjunction.

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[ZealousThoughts]

Yes, all this is true. But the thing is, if the army is centralized and Xueliang loses autonomy, he stops exisiting as a character that it is possible to vote for. So VoidZero has to be cautious there, and you haven't given him any proof that he won't become just another general in the army.

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The OOC fact that Xueliang might no longer be a possible vote is not something Wu Peifu IC would pay any lip service to and as I am pushng for things he would realistically do, making Xueliang an exception to centralisation would not be one of them.

 

[DanBaque]

The only good news prior to the end of the year would be the defeat of Lu Rongting's army on the border, having been ambushed by a mixture of communist militias and mobilised commune workers and sent reeling in defeat. This would leave an impression on Liu Xiang, who would not launch an attack by the end of the year in order to double his strength with what was left of Lu Rongting's forces.

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Alright. Let's see:
- Military Governor of Yunnan: Tang Jiyao - 80,000 regulars (roughly 4 divisions), 150 artillery pieces, 10,000 horses.
- Military Governor of Nanning: Lu Rongting - 30,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions), 30,000 conscripts, 50 artillery pieces, 4,000 horses.
- Military Governor of Sicuan: Liu Xiang - 100,000 regulars (roughly 5 divisions), 10 artillery pieces, 15,000 horses.
- Military Governor of Jiangxi: Liu Liejun - 40,000 regulars (roughly 2 divisions) & 20,000 conscripts, 60 artillery pieces 1,000 horses.

For hidden to all the K-KMT had further decentralised their military to create a rough confederation of warlords, allowing for one final intake of conscripts.

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Supposing that the number of conscripts, was, say, 100,000 at most between everybody, and that Liu Xiang probably lost some men attacking C-KMT Sicuan. Since the amount of soldiers that Lu Rongting had left were enough to be the same amount of men Liu Xiang had, It seems likely that the forces in Sicuan/Nanning are between 180 and 200 thousand men (possibly up to half of them conscripts). So, Nanning is not going to be attacked, I'm taking that part out of the plan, it's far too risky. Though they do have very little artillery...

@Terrafirma You should probably be concerned that Liu Xiang is concentrating power around him.

 

[Shaseyu]

A draft of Communist plan.

[X] Chen Duxiu: Han Leader of the CPC.
-[X] Support the Left-KMT efforts to ensure the Republic internal unity.
--[X] The Examination Yuan should yearly evaluate performance of all civil servants. Excellent results are a reason for pay raise and preference for promotion, bad results for two years are a reason for dismissal. Neither party allegiance nor religious beliefs should be considered in the evaluation.
--[X] Make sure the CPC propagandists and militia leave the Anarchists alone as long as they don't disrupt war efforts, but pay close attention to gangs who may work as the Qing or warlords' spies.
-[X] Launch propaganda across China. Paint the war as an attempt of backward corrupt warlords, bureaucrats and landowners to squash the forces of progress and put Chinese people back into hopelessness and disempowerment.
--[X] Make people of the Changsha-KMT proud of the Republic's achievements and ready to defend it, with weapon in their hands or throught diligent work.
--[X] Spark rebellions and riots at the Qing territory to distract and delay the Qing's army offense.
-[X] Fully participate in the Left-KMT military efforts.
--[X] Organise and reinforce Communist supporters in Canton and surrounding areas to ensure the city will be taken back with minimal damage.
--[X] Organise guerilla warfare in the warlords-occupied region to the south of Changsha. The goals are to disrupt logistic and harass the warlords' armies in close coordination with the Republic Army.
-[X] Zhou Enlai should continue to oversee Educational programs and present the CPC and the Left-KMT efforts before Stalin and the Comintern in the best possible light.

 

[butchock]

[x] Plan Kilopi505

- i'm really curious on how long till Du gets caught and killed

 

[VoidZero]

You know the Beiyang fleet is traditionally subordinate to the Beiyang Army that Wu commands right? I just built it back up.

You also know that as Marshal of the Empire, Wu is the most senior military position in the Empire and thus sent a subordinate to command the Green Banner and bring it back under central control.

But sure the man who is trying to ensure the Republic wins by starving the Qing military of equipment while shipping those arms over Wu's Territory carry right on.

Click to shrink...

The OOC fact that Xueliang might no longer be a possible vote is not something Wu Peifu IC would pay any lip service to and as I am pushng for things he would realistically do, making Xueliang an exception to centralisation would not be one of them.

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And I'm doing exactly what an IC person would do when he is threatened by an enemy. Your selective reading is also to be praised, seeing the Qing Imperial Guard and Qing direct control land getting priority treatment must have filled you with envy. Why don't you think about your own actions carefully before sprouting lies.

 

[ZealousThoughts]

And I'm doing exactly what an IC person would do when he is threatened by an enemy. Your selective reading is also to be praised, seeing the Qing Imperial Guard and Qing direct control land getting priority treatment must have filled you with envy. Why don't you think about your own actions carefully before sprouting lies.

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The report actually says you made certain that no arms went to Wu Peifu or any allies. Which is the sum total of Professional Qing Forces outside of you and the half division of the Imperial Guard.

 

[DanBaque]

[] Chen Duxiu: Han Leader of the CPC.
-[] Support the Left-KMT efforts to ensure the Republic internal unity.
--[] The Examination Yuan should yearly evaluate performance of all civil servants. Excellent results are a reason for pay raise and preference for promotion, bad results for two years are a reason for dismissal. Neither party allegiance nor religious beliefs should be considered in the evaluation.
--[] Make sure the CPC propagandists and militia leave the Anarchists alone as long as they don't disrupt war efforts, but pay close attention to gangs who may work as the Qing or warlords' spies.
-[] Launch propaganda across China. Paint the war as an attempt of backward corrupt warlords, bureaucrats and landowners to squash the forces of progress and put Chinese people back into hopelessness and disempowerment.
--[] Make people of the Changsha-KMT proud of the Republic's achievements and ready to defend it, with weapon in their hands or throught diligent work.
--[] Spark rebellions and riots at the Qing territory to distract and delay the Qing's army offense.
-[] Organise and reinforce Communist supporters in Canton and surrounding areas to ensure the city will be taken back with minimal damage.
-[] Organise guerilla warfare in the warlords-occupied region to the south of Changsha. The goals are to disrupt logistic and harass the warlords' armies in close coordination with the Republic Army.
-[] Zhou Enlai should continue to oversee Educational programs and present the CPC and the Left-KMT efforts before Stalin and the Comintern in the best possible light.

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Seems good. Just one thing: if you could add something like "participate fully in KMT military efforts" and under it put your 4th and 5th option, it would be clearer that the war will be done by the whole military (KMT and CPC), and you'd have another option free.

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The OOC fact that Xueliang might no longer be a possible vote is not something Wu Peifu IC would pay any lip service to and as I am pushng for things he would realistically do, making Xueliang an exception to centralisation would not be one of them.

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Yes, but Wu sees Xueliang as a rival, so he's an equal. Trying to centralize him in that manner seems something that wouldn't be done to an equal. Still, it's your vision of what the character's opinion is.

The report actually says you made certain that no arms went to Wu Peifu or any allies. Which is the sum total of Professional Qing Forces outside of you and the half division of the Imperial Guard.

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And the 70,000 to 210,000 strong Garrisons under Prince Chun. And it isn't half, Dadarians said it doubled, so it should be full.

 

[ZealousThoughts]

And the 70,000 to 210,000 strong Garrisons under Prince Chun. And it isn't half, Dadarians said it doubled, so it should be full.

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The conscription that was done this past turn so they are not really professional soldiery yet?

But as I say, you two wish to buddy up and cut Wu out and Wu will act as cornered as you are making him.

 

[DanBaque]

The conscription that was done this past turn so they are not really professional soldiery yet?
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But as I say, you two wish to buddy up and cut Wu out and Wu will act as cornered as you are making him.

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A year of training and drilling is easily enough to be a professional soldier, though as they won't be battle-hardened, they would be worse than Wu's army.
Xueliang is literally on the other side of China, and the only navy is yours. You are cornered in the sense that you have a rival ally in the North and an enemy in the South, but you needn't exaggerate: you've got allies all around you, have the largest individual army and quite a few foreign officers, and I and VoidZero are in no position to help each other at this point. Or are you talking about Mortenkam and VoidZero?

 

[VoidZero]

The conscription that was done this past turn so they are not really professional soldiery yet?

But as I say, you two wish to buddy up and cut Wu out and Wu will act as cornered as you are making him.

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Buddy up with Emperor's representative, the Prime Minister? That is what I said I did and will continue to do didn't I? Or did you inflate your position again? Present your plan and prove to the empire your loyalty or are you all talk?

 

[Exterminatus]

[X]Liao Zhongkai
-[X] Plan War for Rights

 

[ZealousThoughts]

Buddy up with Emperor's representative, the Prime Minister? That is what I said I did and will continue to do didn't I? Or did you inflate your position again? Present your plan and prove to the empire your loyalty or are you all talk?

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I will wait before posting as I dont believe in pre-emptively showing my hand.

A year of training and drilling is easily enough to be a professional soldier, though as they won't be battle-hardened, they would be worse than Wu's army.
Xueliang is literally on the other side of China, and the only navy is yours. You are cornered in the sense that you have a rival ally in the North and an enemy in the South, but you needn't exaggerate: you've got allies all around you, have the largest individual army and quite a few foreign officers, and I and VoidZero are in no position to help each other at this point. Or are you talking about Mortenkam and VoidZero?

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The turn was not a full year, was like 5 months, so assuming month to two months to gather the men they have had at best a few months training, assuming they had weapons ready when mustered.