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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Bob Saget said:
Not really surprised this universe shows Diana has a significant hypocritical/goody two shoes side. When Paul looked at her core emotional structure, she lacked yellow, orange, and red. And that's...not necessarily a good thing. When your thinking is almost always optimistic, when you lack a healthy sense of fear, when you've been one of the foremost publicly recognized 'heroes' on the planet for decades, you can become delusional in a way that acts as a mirror to certain misguided villains.
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It's not that she can't feel those emotions or that they don't affect her, it's just that they're the least prominent part of her psyche. The issue is that since she thinks that killing Rag Doll was a mistake, she's projecting her emotions onto Grayven while thinking what he had and is making a mistake too. Hypocritcal? Sure, but it isn't due to her core not being made of certain emotions, it's just her having a very human reaction.
 
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Bob Saget said:
Not really surprised this universe shows Diana has a significant hypocritical/goody two shoes side. When Paul looked at her core emotional structure, she lacked yellow, orange, and red. And that's...not necessarily a good thing. When your thinking is almost always optimistic, when you lack a healthy sense of fear, when you've been one of the foremost publicly recognized 'heroes' on the planet for decades, you can become delusional in a way that acts as a mirror to certain misguided villains.
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I think that is part of it, but I also think that Grayven's earlier "Renegade" actions and his then reliance on the Orange Ring (with the attendant basis on needing to want something) significantly impacted his personality. Diana doesn't inspire the same issues in Paul (or at least not to anywhere near the same degree) because Paul is not Grayven. This is despite their identical "origin".

Grayven makes some good points, but he is too enamored with being the "hard man making hard decisions" to the point where he is basing some of his identity on this aspect of his personality. An identity that is somewhat dependent on being at odds with the Justice League. Take that on top of his metaphysical alterations and you have someone who has severe difficulty with social interaction from an "inferior" position.

Which makes quite a bit of sense. The constantly evolving contrast between Graven and Paul is one of my favorite parts of this fic.
 
Mr Zoat said:
while A-. While Mister Scott
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I think it would be better written like this:
"while A... Mister Scott"

Mr Zoat said:
He nods as we walk up the steps to the rear of the stage. "Were you serious about the other me being a killer robot?"

"It isn't any longer, Mister President."

"I get the impression that's kind of a theme with you."

I shrug. "By the time I usually get called in…"

"I suppose." He nods to himself. "You at least read our briefing material, right?"
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Gray man is getting a reputation as a murderer. I can see why Alan would be worried.
 
Wednesday's Jest said:
I think that is part of it, but I also think that Grayven's earlier "Renegade" actions and his then reliance on the Orange Ring (with the attendant basis on needing to want something) significantly impacted his personality. Diana doesn't inspire the same issues in Paul (or at least not to anywhere near the same degree) because Paul is not Grayven. This is despite their identical "origin".

Grayven makes some good points, but he is too enamored with being the "hard man making hard decisions" to the point where he is basing some of his identity on this aspect of his personality. An identity that is somewhat dependent on being at odds with the Justice League. Take that on top of his metaphysical alterations and you have someone who has severe difficulty with social interaction from an "inferior" position.

Which makes quite a bit of sense. The constantly evolving contrast between Graven and Paul is one of my favorite parts of this fic.
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I'm fairly certain its the entire narrative purpose of Grayven at this point
 
shepsquared said:
Not lacked. The superficial level he spoke of there only shows the most dominant parts of your personality. He can look deeper, including at desires that have no relation to the situation at hand.
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Incorrect: it's not 'superficial'. It's 'fundamental'. My statement regarding Diana's emotional core was accurate.
Mr Zoat said:
"It's not just desire now. That's still most precise, but if I look at someone and make a little effort, I can see all the colours of the emotional spectrum, like coloured lines in their skin."

"What colors do you see when you look at me?"

"A mix of green, blue, indigo and violet. So, you know, HEY!"

That got a chuckle. "Will, hope, compassion and love. Kind of you to say so."

"It's not that you can't feel other things, it's that they aren't a fundamental part of your nature."
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Mr Zoat said:
"…jus the cost, General. Your own analysis shows that it can't manoeuvre as well as the F-Sixteen, that the next generation radar systems the Russians and Chinese are bringing in can see it as easily as they can regular aircraft and that it isn't mechanically reliable yet. There simply isn't any reason to rush implementation." The air force general looks distinctly unhappy with the President's pronouncement. "And I seem to remember you taking a rather different line last time we talked about the A-Ten."

"Mister President, those aircraft simply aren't compari-."
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:D

Don't like the F-35 Zoat? Or poking fun at the recent 'competition'.
 
Bob Saget said:
Incorrect: it's not 'superficial'. It's 'fundamental'. My statement regarding Diana's emotional core was accurate.
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Either way, this doesn't make her a hypocrite. Paul's fundamental nature is entirely orange and Grayven's is likely a mix of orange, red, green and yellow.

Just because fear or anger or hatred of something isn't a fundamental part of her doesn't mean she's a hopelessly naive optimist. In all likely hood she has never been in a situation like Alan was with Rag Doll so she assumes she'll react like she always has. She could easily be wrong. This doesn't make her delusional
 
Da Boyz said:
When was this again? I can't remember if this was done in a Renegade snippet or offscreen.
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I think it was here.

Mr Zoat said:
"In my second example, a criminal is captured but threatens to send other members of his organisation after the families of the individuals making the arrest. Once he makes it clear that he knows names and addresses, they simultaneously raise their firearms and kill him."

"Members of organised criminal gangs seldom do that. They know that escalating would just result in more police attention and disrupt their operations further."

"Let's assume that the individual in question is a malevolent supervillain who just wants to spread the pain around."
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I'm curious if this is going to set the ground rules for when it's ok for a hero to kill and when it's not.

Some sort of kill order system is pushed in order to prevent a Kingdom Come scenario.
 
shepsquared said:
Either way, this doesn't make her a hypocrite. Paul's fundamental nature is entirely orange and Grayven's is likely a mix of orange, red, green and yellow.
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Paul nature is hardly entirely orange, if he was he'd incapable of feeling other emotions and would act like Opidian. Sure it's an important part of him, but there's definitely some hope and indigo in there. And before it's mentionned, his soul doesn't follow the same rules as most people, it being almost entirely orange mean little in that aspect.
Bob Saget said:
Incorrect: it's not 'superficial'. It's 'fundamental'. My statement regarding Diana's emotional core was accurate.
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It not being fundamental doesn't mean she's unable to feel them or that she's not an healthy human being.
 
GodKiller999 said:
Paul nature is hardly entirely orange, if he was he'd incapable of feeling other emotions and would act like Opidian. Sure it's an important part of him, but there's definitely some hope and indigo in there. And before it's mentionned, his soul doesn't follow the same rules as most people, it being almost entirely orange mean little in that aspect.

It not being fundamental doesn't mean she's unable to feel them or that she's not an healthy human being.
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Paul is different to everyone else as his soul is basically the heart of the Ophidian or something. But my argument was against the idea of Wonder Woman being:
Bob Saget said:
delusional in a way that acts as a mirror to certain misguided villains.
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The fundamental alignment of her soul towards compassion, love and hope certainly doesn't mean that.
 
Wednesday's Jest said:
"hard man making hard decisions"
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Does anyone even actually knows what this phrase means anymore?

'Hard Man making Hard Decisions' is a mocking term used when a character or person makes a decision that clearly had better and/or superior alternatives.

Killing people/creatures like Klarion is not 'Hard Man making Hard Decisions', it's the most obvious and only choice that can be taken.

They can't contain Klarion by any means they have access to, and if Klarion would he would perform the 'Split the World' trick a second time for shits and giggles.

You can't reform Klarion in prison, you can't learn anything from him, he has no strategic worth to be preserved, he can't be bought/controlled/convinced to act differently, and he has absolutely no regrets over his actions.

This is a being that genuinely delights in making people suffer. There is literally no reason why a person shouldn't end him if they had the chance. Because the longer he is alive and free to do as he pleases the number of his victims will grow.

The League know this, and yet they let it happen anyway. They willingly let people like Klarion live. They don't pursue these people to stop them ahead of time.

The League is purely a reactionary force, and the villains are willingly and knowingly abusing the fuck out of it, and the League just... accepts it.

This is not 'Hard Man Makes Hard Decision', this is bloody common sense!

I mean for fucks sake, Batman would literally save the Joker if the Joker was going to hit with the death penalty by the government. They tout letting the Governments and the people of the world make their own decisions and yet when the people they 'protect' do actually act to try and fix the problems they have and get some control over their lives the League just goes 'tsk tsk' and shakes their heads sadly.

This results in anyone decent and upstanding who idolises them going 'maybe we shouldn't do that', which is basically more than half the world.

The ones that don't stop at the Leagues 'Tsk Tsk'ing have to recruit from people who don't respect or like the 'Heros'. Which of course is villains, criminals and shady black-ops organisations because anyone with a half-decent set of morals is too starry-eyed about the League going 'Tsk Tsk' to do anything!

It's a self-feeding cycle of idiocy and hypocrisy that is constantly feeding itself and it needs to be shot in the foot!
 
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Hey Zoat, are we going to see any more of Grandma Nguyen? Coz she was awesome.

Mr Zoat said:
"I was once put in prison by the American government. Did you know that?"

"Why? What did they think you'd done?"

"They thought that I was a communist sympathiser because they found me in the wrong village." Missus Nguyen appears to consider this sufficient, returning her attention to the door.

"I'll get it, Grandma!"

"What was that like?"

"I mostly remember it being boring. Plus, it made it very hard to kill them."

Jade gives her gran a look of surprise. "Kill them?"

"I was a soldier in the Vietnamese Army. I killed Japanese,-" For a moment I think she's going to spit. "-then I killed the French and then I killed-"

The door opens and a young man smiles at us. Well muscled chap, though given the sorts of people I usually hang around with I'm getting a bit jaded about that sort of thing. He has a crew cut and an open and honest face, though if you squint a bit you can still see the family resemblance.

Missue Nguyen nods, a bright smile on her face as she looks at him. "-Americans."
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PostwarGryphon said:
Batman would literally save the Joker if the Joker was going to hit with the death penalty by the government
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I doubt that.

PostwarGryphon said:
League just goes 'tsk tsk' and shakes their heads sadly.
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I doubt that even more.

PostwarGryphon said:
It's a self-feeding cycle of idiocy and hypocrisy that is constantly feeding itself and it needs to be shot in the foot!
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Your entire argument is invalid.
 
So here's a fun little detail: Green Lanterns. If they encounter criminals in their sectors and those sectors can't reliably keep them imprisoned or otherwise dealt with, are supposed to bring them to Oa to dump in the Sciencecells.

And yet, none of Earth's Green Lanterns have ever dumped even a single mass murderer like the Joker into a sciencecell.

Why? Because you don't really get to escape the Sciencecells unless it's a huge event, or Oa is getting blown up or whatever. So if they got dumped off there... that's it. You don't see them again.

When I was writing Lightbringer, this is what happened to the Joker. He got dumped in Greenie prison and quietly forgotten about. Later, he was going to get killed and come back as a black lantern, but my fic never got that far.
 
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