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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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doug89 said:
Wasn't the Justice League formed with the permission of the UN in part to defend against extraterrestrial threats? In the aftermath of an invasion? Sounds like a military mindset to me.
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Cart before the horse.

The JL was founded Ad-Hoc to save the world from invasion. They later received global approval via a UN mandate.

Thus the character of the JL always came from its members, who are more vigilantes (aka alternate police) than global defenders in their mindset.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"Maybe that's the problem. The US military doesn't do policing outside of disaster zones, because that's not what it's for. The rules of engagement are different, for good reasons. I don't have a problem with you wanting to be a soldier. But if that's what you want?" He drifts back slightly. "Then this is the wrong organisation for you."
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Alan is really getting good at shutting Paul's particular brand of crazy down.
 
Hmm..

I didn't really care for the beat down of hawkwoman. Ol has a point that it was completely one sided and would deliver no satisfaction to either side. Some pre agreed to rules to make it more even would have been more satisfying, like no weapons or something. Shrug.

Hal was a surprisingly good part of the chapter. Other than a chapter or two on renegades side I think he has been portrayed almost entirely negatively in this fic, which I'm kinda fine with since he is my least favorite gl and most favorite parallax.

Still it was nice to see him using his background to make a excellent point.

Unfortunately, considering the inherent absurdity of a super hero universe I think any point will fall apart when looked at to closely, and I fear ol will put others arguments under a microscope till they break while giving his own the benifit of the doubt.

Vaermina said:
Alan is really getting good at shutting Paul's particular brand of crazy down.
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tgojeff said:
That was Hal Jordan, not Alan.
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It was kinda hard to tell who he was talking to at first, what with people named hol about. I had to read really close to see the one mention of hal's name right before the talk.
 
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TheLurker said:
No, he's not saying OL should stop helping, he's saying that joining the justice league isn't a good way for OL to help the way he wants to.
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It's already been said, but nah, OL isn't really all that interested in joining the Justice League. He mostly just wants to work with, and more importantly, look after/back up his friends.

gourdcaptain said:
But they follow Justice League rules of engagement in the non-lethal area. So... yeah, Jordan's still kinda got a point about the mismatch there.
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At the moment perhaps. But Kalder is a solider of Atlantis, and I highly doubt he or any of his other fellow Atlantians are pulling their punches when dealing with Black Manta pirates and such.

I'm also fairly certain that when Amazon Island was invaded way back when, many of the invaders were killed, some of which could have reasonably been done by Diana or Kon's hands. Kon also basically god nuked a Titan with the help of another Titan. Can't say lethal force was being held back there.

I find it hard to believe that when Hawkwoman swings that mace at someone's skull, she isn't in full "bash their brains out" mode. Captain Atom is a solider as well so there is that.

Basically the League plays nicey-nice because comic book rules. They slap around mass murderers, stick them in day camp, and then go "Aw shucks" when the cardboard walls fail to hold and another round of mass murder commences. That being said, I'm betting about 90% of the Leagues foes would have been executed by the state in a reality based universe.
 
gourdcaptain said:
On the other hand, mandating that an organization of people who joined a non-paying organization with the explicit intent of nonlethal means go kill people... really isn't going to work. This is the kind of thing where you really need a separate organization for that if you want it.
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Yes, the problem there is more authorial fiat than anything. Realistically, the obvious solution would be to find and recruit high level supers who are willing to act as some metahuman military force.

The problem is how in mainstream superhero settings that sort of thing inevitably either gets handled crazily by the government, or the supers themselves go out of control "proving" that the vigilantes like the JL were right all along.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"Maybe that's the problem. The US military doesn't do policing outside of disaster zones, because that's not what it's for. The rules of engagement are different, for good reasons. I don't have a problem with you wanting to be a soldier. But if that's what you want?" He drifts back slightly. "Then this is the wrong organisation for you."
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I might be misremembering stuff and I am also by no means an expert in anything military or police, but a lot of the missions the team got send on didn't sound particularly police to me.

The drug-stuff in the beginning might have been. But infiltrating and scouting like what they did during the Byalian takeover, for example? Really more black ops. And a lot of other things they did were comparable with things both institutions have to deal with (hostage rescue, repelling/subduing attackers, etc.)

If the youngsters-team is supposed to be a police force, then it is certainly one with unconventional operating procedures stuff like that
 
Avernus said:
The problem is how in mainstream superhero settings that sort of thing inevitably either gets handled crazily by the government, or the supers themselves go out of control "proving" that the vigilantes like the JL were right all along.
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Status quo is god.

Better yet, any and all fan complaints will be turned into characters or story-lines that exist solely to mock our loyal fans.

Man, why is revenue down again?
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Basically the League plays nicey-nice because comic book rules. They slap around mass murderers, stick them in day camp, and then go "Aw shucks" when the cardboard walls fail to hold and another round of mass murder commences. That being said, I'm betting about 90% of the Leagues foes would have been executed by the state in a reality based universe.
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I think you're confusing YJ with the main DC comics. Prisons on Earth-16 work well. The Justice League on Earth-16 doesn't default to lethal force because the justice system works.

Also, if the DC United States is even remotely like the real US... Expedited executions are not a thing.
 
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Doing a bit of a re-read, between recent and favorite chapters and I may have found some things.

Mr Zoat said:
I told them to do with him whatever they wanted with him.
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Redundancy, I believe? I think one of the "with him" needs to be removed.

Mr Zoat said:
Not wearing armour, I note.
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This link doesn't work. I think I know what it was referring to, but not the specific image. In any case, since it's from Earth 50 I looked for a 'fitting' replacement: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80111/2529812-5871687_f520.jpg

Mr Zoat said:
She presses a button on her bikini bottom, causing her armour to appear around her.
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The link for the armour doesn't work either. I suspect most people know how the armour for Big Barda looks, but I think the link itself referred to this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqAfUkPXgAAQpjT.jpg:large

Mr Zoat said:
Oh, that's not a good look for him.
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Another one that's not working, unfortunately couldn't find a replacement. And a pity too, that image of John Stewart as Star Sapphire was great.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"Because if Zatara was alive after eight months, he wasn't in danger of dying. Look, I wanted to fly for the US Air Force. And if.. things had gone differently, I'd probably have killed plenty of people by now. But I'm not. I'm a space cop with a fancy ring. Superheroes aren't military, they're police. The Justice League isn't a military."

"The Orange Lantern Corps is a military."

"Maybe that's the problem. The US military doesn't do policing outside of disaster zones, because that's not what it's for. The rules of engagement are different, for good reasons. I don't have a problem with you wanting to be a soldier. But if that's what you want?" He drifts back slightly. "Then this is the wrong organisation for you."
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Wait, the Orange Lantern Corps is a military? Doesn't that imply some political entity they are beholden too?

And why is killing the difference between cops and soldiers? Cops are allowed to in certain circumstances, soldiers are meant too. A superhero being a Cop could still kill.

Also, how does he know Zatara wouldn't have died after month nine? Is he an Order Lord possession specialist?
 
Mr Zoat said:
Because if Zatara was alive after eight months, he wasn't in danger of dying.
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The rebuttal I'd expect from the SI here is that:

1. Did Jordan see the condition of Mr. Zatara afterwards? He may not have been in danger of dying in the next few days, but who is to say how long he would have actually lived? He could have been perfect healthy even, but no one was allowed to check on the hostage.

2. Delay in rescuing the hostage (Zatara) for a short time is acceptable if that will improve the outcome. What was Jordan's plan? What had the Space Cop done to resolve the situation?

3. Delay might have also been acceptable if Nabu had put forward a plan of succession himself. But there was considerable pushback at the suggestion of this.
 
Lord Ernest said:
Doing a bit of a re-read, between recent and favorite chapters and I may have found some things.
Redundancy, I believe? I think one of the "with him" needs to be removed.
This link doesn't work. I think I know what it was referring to, but not the specific image. In any case, since it's from Earth 50 I looked for a 'fitting' replacement: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80111/2529812-5871687_f520.jpg
The link for the armour doesn't work either. I suspect most people know how the armour for Big Barda looks, but I think the link itself referred to this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqAfUkPXgAAQpjT.jpg:large
Another one that's not working, unfortunately couldn't find a replacement. And a pity too, that image of John Stewart as Star Sapphire was great.
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Thank you, updated.
HandleWithCare said:
Wait, the Orange Lantern Corps is a military? Doesn't that imply some political entity they are beholden too?
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Yes, the Controllers.
 
backgroundnoise said:
Lantern Jordan makes a good point, my rebuttal? A POLICE ORGANIZATION should not be all that stands between the world and absolute destruction. Police are not expected to fight paramilitary organizations, or a rampaging psychopath wearing a literal tank, nor are they expected to repel an invasion force from a hostile foreign nation. Police exist to protect and serve the public, or more specifically, the public good. Do you know who usually takes those kinds of jobs? Military, special forces, etc. You are literally complaining about OL acting like a soldier pretending to be a cop when you are a cop pretending to be a soldier. Pot? Meet kettle, you're both black.
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incorrect the police exist to enforce the law not serve the public
 
Are none of the Justice League members going to point out the "Nabu was probably mentally ill" thing? Or the whole "we treated a sentient being like a souvenir" thing? Because Paul said that, if Nabu was going to find an alternate arrangement, he would have done so in the 8 months. But that exact same argument applies with regards to the Team, y'know? If you were going to help him, you would have before he forced the issue.

Moreover, let's look at some of the people Paul has tried to rehabilitate across his interations: Jade, Nightmare Moon, Tai Lung, Azula, Blackfire and more I'm sure I'm not recalling. All of these people are unambiguous villains who hurt a shitload of people. Meanwhile, Nabu is a genuine hero who dedicated his life to helping others.

Like, what is happening here exactly? By any sane metric, the latter is vastly more deserving of help than any of the former. And sure, you could make it a matter of "bluh Paul didn't want to bluh" but I'd expect a member of the Justice League to say something instead of the generic "but it's wrong" strawman.
 
runeblue360 said:
Moreover, let's look at some of the people Paul has tried to rehabilitate across his interations: Jade, Nightmare Moon, Tai Lung, Azula, Blackfire and more I'm sure I'm not recalling. All of these people are unambiguous villains who hurt a shitload of people. Meanwhile, Nabu is a genuine hero who dedicated his life to helping others.

Like, what is happening here exactly? By any sane metric, the latter is vastly more deserving of help than any of the former. And sure, you could make it a matter of "bluh Paul didn't want to bluh" but I'd expect a member of the Justice League to say something instead of the generic "but it's wrong" strawman.
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Oh, let's not mess about: if any of the people you listed had hurt anyone the SI cared about he'd have shoved them into the deepest darkest hole he could find and thrown away the key. He's an Orange Lantern.

On the other hand: Nightmare Moon got a thousand years' solitary confinement, Tai Lung got... Twenty years, was it? Both were punished for what they did and no local party attempted to rehabilitate them. Neither version of Blackfire the SI has dealt with had done anything exceptionally bad and Jade and Azula were brought up by supervillains. All three were relatively young when he encountered them.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Oh, let's not mess about: if any of the people you listed had hurt anyone the SI cared about he'd have shoved them into the deepest darkest hole he could find and thrown away the key. He's an Orange Lantern.
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This is worth bringing attention to: no one, especially a Orange Lantern, treats everyone equally. They always place more importance on things that involve them personally.

It doesn't matter if you're a Orange Lantern, or Superman the Living Embodiment of Justice, if you're even remotely human in mindset you do not treat all people and all situations equally. You place more importance on your friends and family, empathize with them more, you're more willing to go out of your way to help them, etc.

Think of it this way, if the Joker or whoever killed Lois Lane vs some random person, which do you think Superman would be more pissed about? I mean objectively speaking, they're both people, they both have families and friends, they both feel the same sorts of things, so shouldn't he weigh them equally?
But the Joker has killed dozens of people in pretty much all of his incarnations and Superman hasn't made him a particular priority, but you can bet if he killed Lois that Superman would make sure that madman rotted in jail, or worse.

Most people don't like to admit this, or don't even realize it if they aren't particularly introspective. But Paul is a enlightened Orange Lantern. A regular Orange Lantern worth his salt would know and understand this, let alone a enlightened one. Paul probably would have hesitated a bit more if it was someone he didn't know, but Nabu hurt one of his closest friends and took her father hostage; I'm honestly surprised he wasn't even less patient than he was. I'd bet that if it wasn't for the fact that he was literally on the head of his hostage 24/7 the whole thing would've been resolved a lot sooner, with a lot more violence.

I'm also surprised that it hasn't come up more in the discussion with the League. Maybe because it's not the core reason for how he acted he is wisely leaving it out to save a little face?
 
Just something that came to my mind regarding this. Recall during the Telepathic Training Scenario, when at the end of it, to break out, Martian Manhunter had to shock M'gann... but did it by "stabbing" through her chest? Yes, the Orange Lantern at the time had the Ophidian whispering in the subconscious, but he still didn't even think about it before blasting J'onn's head off and then the Ophidian bit through his chest.

In comparison, he went and recruited Kalmin, a Qwardian Weaponer, a major supervillain, one of the guys that practically worship the Anti-Monitor, the being whose practical only purpose is destroy universes.

For an Orange Lantern, for Paul, if you hurt one of his people on purpose, you can be the Source itself; you can bet he's gonna try to take you down. If not, well, it depend case by case, how deplorable vs how useful you can be, things like that, but the guy an be pretty reasonable and/or indulgent. At least that's how I see it.
 
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