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It's snips like this one that really make me want to see Paul lose his rings and have to fight alone. The sheer discrepancy between his mouth and fighting capability would be glorious to watch.

As far as I can remember, Paul doesn't even know how to throw a punch without his ring does he?
He's gotten into fights without his rings; like that mob guy in Gotham. Nor does he pretend that he's some super-badass without them.

Also he did a pretty good job mouthing off to Red Inferno while disarmed & helpless, and got burned in the face as a result. I'm not sure what more you want short of him being killed.
 
No ring SI in power armour versus fully equipped Hawkwoman would be approximately an even match. But it wouldn't give either a whole lot of leeway for not killing their opponent.
 
It's snips like this one that really make me want to see Paul lose his rings and have to fight alone. The sheer discrepancy between his mouth and fighting capability would be glorious to watch.

As far as I can remember, Paul doesn't even know how to throw a punch without his ring does he? Effing Crazy Quilt could take him out.
In fairness, he is a very good lantern, he really does not overstate himself when it comes to that. Remember, he's defeated The First+2 other lanterns at the same time, and fought Kilowog to a stalemate. Kilowog, one of the senior members of the Green Lantern Corps, so skilled he is entrusted to train new recruits. Technically he won, but it was a bit of a trick. And when asked to report after working with OL, several senior Green Lanterns spoke highly of him:

"Militarily, he would be a nightmare to fight. While his construct strength did not appear to be particularly strong, roughly on the level of a Green Lantern recruit most of the way through basic training, his propensity to multitasking, attacking from oblique angles, creativity in appliance and creation of constructs, and horde of non ring-based offensive and defensive options all mean that even a much more experienced Lantern would have an extremely difficult time in defeating him non lethally. In addition to this, he has some form of magic protection that makes him unable to be scanned directly. While during our mock fight, against six experienced Green Lanterns, I had the impression that Orange Lantern was barely fighting. While our own Lanterns were similarly not fighting to the best of our abilities, we were mostly only holding back in the level of force we used, not tactics. Later contact with Lantern Gardner confirmed my suspicions that Orange Lantern was fighting far below his normal ability, and actively not using many of his commonly used techniques."

Saarek inclines his head in apparent agreement, "I concur with Lantern Tui's assessment, both in terms of personality and combat. For one example, Orange Lantern taught all of the visiting Lanterns how to make railgun constructs. While this is not particularly noteworthy by itself, the fact that he was able to make this within such a short time of receiving his ring and with no instruction on how to do so, along with developing munitions that would have caught unawares even the strongest Lanterns, shows that he is not someone to be fought without appropriate preparation. Taking into account that he is most likely keeping his best techniques to himself, it would be illogical to send less than an Honour Guard strike force in to fight him if it became necessary, in order to avoid any casualties."

"While during our mock fight, against six experienced Green Lanterns, I had the impression that Orange Lantern was barely fighting."
That, is someone who has earned the right to brag.
 
It's not so bad that I want Paul to die: I just want to see him humbled.

Part of the reason I like Grayven's story more than Paul's now is for all his bravado, Grayven (ironically enough) knows who he is. He's learned repeatedly that, while he may be personally powerful, he can get his ass handed to him by a normal with the right tools.

Well that and every word out of Paul's mouth just seems to leave the listener feeling condescended to. His words just give off that aura of "I know better you poor stupid child so let me solve everything while you continue playing pretend cops and robbers".

I guess my real problem with Paul is that he has no tact and refuses to even pretend he could handle some situations better with help.

But I guess that's Orange Enlightenment for you...
 
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Well that and every word out of Paul's mouth just seems to leave the listener feeling condescended to. His words just give off that aura of "I know better you poor stupid child so let me solve everything while you continue playing pretend cops and robbers".
While its not true of everyone, I can understand how Paul got to that point.

It probably happened some time between "You invented Crumbler tech, capable of disrupting almost any force field including lantern constructs, and you put it in a gauntlet and punch stuff with it?!" and "This man, who built a habitat on Venus, was repeatedly turned down by investors?!".
 
12th April
08:46 GMT -5



I nod. "Yes. That's how bad things are." I pause to let that sink in. "I think my connections in the US government will allow me to talk people around to expanding your remit. Even the.. Pprotestant right.. are aware of just how vulnerable America is. I'm perfectly happy to act as your political cheerleader."

Should have a single p.
 
As far as I can remember, Paul doesn't even know how to throw a punch without his ring does he?
Why in the world would he punch someone? He's not a metahuman like Grayven.

Now, guns, those make much more sense. And he has trained with those. And kinetic belts. And cold guns...how much of his subspace arsenal is he allowed to bring to the fight?
 
Not including them implied that they had no place participating. Since their honor system doesn't factor for ability to contribute, the logical conclusion is that they took it to mean that Paul that they were morally unfit to save their comrade from captivity.
And the other thing about honor codes is that they don't let you gracefully back down when the answer is, "well, yeah, you had eight months and did nothing, that speaks for itself."
Sadly, this. It's very much the truth, but it really doesn't help.

"Your knowledge of magic is inferior to my own, and I cannot find any danger hidden in the golem. If my powers of perception cannot pierce the deceptions of the forces of Chaos, what hope do you have?"
Yeah, that's the problem with starting from a conclusion and jamming the observed facts around it. Unfortunately, that's a very common mindset with closed-minded people, and is very much in character for this Earth's Nabu.
 
If memory serves Zoat imported Nth Metal's anti-magic properties from the cartoon.

In which case, having meat shields who have anti-magical metal flowing through their veins and hand to hand weapons that can smash through magic seems useful to me when facing a magic guy.

Plus, now I'm wondering if one of the Hawks had vouched for Paul's golem if Nabu would have accepted their word on it.
No, Nth metal from the DCAU universe has anti-magic properties, Nth metal from the Young Justice universe does not.
 
Out of curiosity when Paul and co. temporarily spoke to the ghost of Kent Nelson didn't Kent imply that Nabu might've been mentally manipulating the JSA at the time and probably would have done the same to the JL? Was that ever addressed and if not why hasn't Paul brought up the fact that he had reasonable suspicion to believe that they were mentally compromised especially after what happened at New Years?
 
Out of curiosity when Paul and co. temporarily spoke to the ghost of Kent Nelson didn't Kent imply that Nabu might've been mentally manipulating the JSA at the time and probably would have done the same to the JL? Was that ever addressed and if not why hasn't Paul brought up the fact that he had reasonable suspicion to believe that they were mentally compromised especially after what happened at New Years?
Because I don't remember that. Did he?
 
I would imagine that somebody have already asked this question(and many times), still: is there a way to read paragon and renegade stories separately? At some point I have read paragon one fully(though that was half a year or so from that moment) and want to read renegade line too, but I find searching through all the pages really annoying.
 
I would imagine that somebody have already asked this question(and many times), still: is there a way to read paragon and renegade stories separately? At some point I have read paragon one fully(though that was half a year or so from that moment) and want to read renegade line too, but I find searching through all the pages really annoying.
The index on the first page of this thread distinguishes between Paragon and Renegade updates for each individual link. So, if you're willing to binge the archive using methods that predate threadmarks...
 
I'm not going to defend Paul being disrespectful towards people he doesn't feel much respect towards as such, but...

It's not so bad that I want Paul to die: I just want to see him humbled.

You mean like the time he got flat out OHKOed by an improvised telepathic weapon and lost his ring, hospitalizing assbeat to follow?

Or the time he got his memory wiped by Psimon, burned all his charge like a jackass because he thought he was dreaming, and wound up being nearly useless for most of the rest of that mission?

Or the time he got laughed at by the gods because he was acting /too/ cautious and respectful of traditions he didn't know or understand to the point of undermining his common sense?

I mean, how humbled are we talking here, because his story isn't exactly lacking for moments of personal failure, stumbling, and recovering from his errors, or even just acknowledging when he's outclassed. One of the earliest conversations he had with Kid Flash was an honest breakdown about how he could wreck Robin, but KF would most likely mop the floor with him because, at the time, he had no real hard counter for super-speed.

Part of the reason I like Grayven's story more than Paul's now is for all his bravado, Grayven (ironically enough) knows who he is. He's learned repeatedly that, while he may be personally powerful, he can get his ass handed to him by a normal with the right tools.

Again I'm going to have to cite all the times Paragon got his ass handed to him, or the times he skated by the skin of his teeth. Remember when Klarion shut off his ring entirely for awhile? Or heck, even little moments like when the Sivanas just casually jacked everything out of his subspace storage and there was a whole lot of shit-all he could do about the Sheeda Huntsman?

I mean, come on, /in this update/ he flat out admits that he couldn't take the Hols without his rings. The man is not /unaware/ of his weaknesses.

I guess my real problem with Paul is that he has no tact and refuses to even pretend he could handle some situations better with help.

You mean like the time Johnny Sorrow nearly flat out killed him from two full rings, and the only thing that saved him was calling the Guardians for help with the tools he needed?

Or how he started an arcanotechnological revolution, seeking counsel and support from just a whole bunch of people to accomplish an entire swathe of objectives, up to and including but not /limited to/ freeing someone from possession by a being he didn't think he could kill on his own without endangering the person he wanted to save? How many times has he consulted people like Mera, John and Sephtian because he knows he has no clue of his own when it comes to magic?

Or how about how he doesn't go marching off to Apokalypse because he knows he'd get his ass beat sideways if he got into a premature confrontation with Darkseid? Or how he got Tamaran off the ground to help him found his Corps and start cleaning up Vega with the help of anyone who could be persuaded to improve conditions there?

Paragon's story has /literally/ been 'get other people involved all the time as much as possible because not only do I not know or care about everything, I cannot be a single point of failure for everyone to lean on'. That is his /thesis/, contrasted against Renegade's path of esoteric conquest and benevolent rulership.

The one time he /didn't/ do this was /specifically/ not getting the /League/ involved because he did not feel that he could trust them in a specific matter. And you know what he did? He got a WHOLE BUNCH of other people to help him because he wasn't going to go after Nabu solo because it turns out Parapaul is not actually that arrogant.

Well that and every word out of Paul's mouth just seems to leave the listener feeling condescended to. His words just give off that aura of "I know better you poor stupid child so let me solve everything while you continue playing pretend cops and robbers".

He condescends and disrespects people who are comporting themselves in fashions and under circumstances he finds unworthy of respect, but that's hardly the only way he interacts with people, or the only attitude he has about them. Heck, he /gets/ condescended to in pretty much every interaction he has with the Controllers and Dox.

Yes, his attitude in moments like this where he just doesn't give a damn about someone's opinion can be grating and viscerally repugnant (something Renegade is AT LEAST as guilty of, see: Themyscera), but if that's all it takes to make you completely forget every other aspect of his character, experiences, trials and accomplishments then I don't know what to tell you except 'read it again'.

Paragon's story is not a one-way street of being awesome, unstoppable and smarter than everyone around him any more than Renegade's is, and acting like it has been is a disservice to the story and any constructive conversation we could possibly hope to have about it or the characters who comprise it.
 
You know... I don't know if it exists here, but if it does I really hope she shows up in a full Nth metal battle-suit just for the resulting "oh crap" moment as he realizes he's about to get a beat-down.

I want to see her show up in one and get beaten down anyway. Railguns ahoy.

As far as I can remember, Paul doesn't even know how to throw a punch without his ring does he? Effing Crazy Quilt could take him out.

It didn't get time onscreen, but I don't think that's true. In between the double-marathon endurance training Diana gave him I expect there was some close-combat practice.
 
More than that, considering the amount of time OL was with the team I would eat my hat if unpowered combat wasn't covered. There's Batman, Green Arrow and Black Canary who would all likely want to include it, plus Artemis and Robin on the team who would need to keep up with it.
 
So no Nth-Metal battle-suits? Awwww. :(
Thanagar has those, but they're generally an inefficient use of Nth metal compared to just about anything else they could do with the stuff. And they certainly don't give them to undercover agents in places where the armour might well get captured.
 
If the hawkfolk are so adamant that they would have tried to do something, then why didn't they say anything at any point?

Hawkwoman specifically isn't the type to hold her tongue. If she cared then she'd have spoken up the moment she and nabu where in a room together.

The fact they did nothing means they have no right to be offended for being called out on doing nothing.
If being told that offends your sense of honour so badly that you want to pick a fight with someone who could most likely turn you into paste, then by all means.

Stupidity is often a self-correcting trait, in the grand scheme of things.
 
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