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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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shepsquared said:
They did. The result was the G-Sprites, which the story called out as being utterly inefficient for power generation unless they had a lifespan of a month or so.
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No they did not.

Did I type duplicate kryptonian cells? I did not.

I typed duplicate the process.

Biological processes are not magic that technology cannot replicate.

The fact that power rings are basically reverse engineered from bacteria in this story should make that clear.

Heck, Amazo might have been duplicating the solar absorption with the rest of Supe's powers.

Also, the fact that Zoat's explanation for electricity generating genomorphs is kryptonian cells is fairly bizarre. And is realistically an obvious explanation for the inefficiency. Kryptonian powers can turn solar energy into force, or into heat.

Maybe they should have gone steampunk with G-Devils.

Coda said:
That's starting to sound like Superman has clairaudience instead of super-hearing.
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Part of the reason "kryptonian powers are psychic in nature" was a theory even before NE Superboy and his tactile telekinesis.

Superman would see that Jimmy was about to get shot from a bajillion miles away and then fly there in time to catch the bullet despite the fact that realistically by the time light would travel to Supes Jimmy would need a morgue all the time back in the day.
 
I have a question regarding this debate about Patents. Does the Patent has to have, with the copy of schematics, like an instruction guide on how to build it?

Because some of the schizo-tech is that precisely because the Inventor or Owner is the one that understands it or has all the rest of notes and references to make sense of it, no?
If I can look for a patent online, once is public, does it come with the instructions if I want to build it? Or do I have to be as/more smart than the inventor?
 
stsword said:
No they did not.

Did I type duplicate kryptonian cells? I did not.

I typed duplicate the process.

Biological processes are not magic that technology cannot replicate.

The fact that power rings are basically reverse engineered from bacteria in this story should make that clear.

Heck, Amazo might have been duplicating the solar absorption with the rest of Supe's powers.

Also, the fact that Zoat's explanation for electricity generating genomorphs is kryptonian cells is fairly bizarre. And is realistically an obvious explanation for the inefficiency. Kryptonian powers can turn solar energy into force, or into heat.

Maybe they should have gone steampunk with G-Devils.



Part of the reason "kryptonian powers are psychic in nature" was a theory even before NE Superboy and his tactile telekinesis.

Superman would see that Jimmy was about to get shot from a bajillion miles away and then fly there in time to catch the bullet despite the fact that realistically by the time light would travel to Supes Jimmy would need a morgue all the time back in the day.
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As far as WtR canon goes, they clearly tried and failed, moving on to better applications: cloning, telepathy and so on. Castigating them for something you think should be possible but doesn't bear out in a story (or in canon) where they can't even clone a kryptonian properly is a bit much.
 
Lord Ernest said:
I have a question regarding this debate about Patents. Does the Patent has to have, with the copy of schematics, like an instruction guide on how to build it?
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From the Wikipedia article on patents:
The application contains a description of how to make and use the invention that must provide sufficient detail for a person skilled in the art (i.e., the relevant area of technology) to make and use the invention. In some countries there are requirements for providing specific information such as the usefulness of the invention, the best mode of performing the invention known to the inventor, or the technical problem or problems solved by the invention.
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In practice you don't have to be that precise, though. You mostly have to define what makes the patented product different from anything else that exists already. I've actually applied for a patent before. When you go to file a patent you generally want to specify the minimum amount of information necessary -- if you provide TOO MUCH information, then your patent is actually WEAKER, because someone could use a subset of the patented invention in a different fashion and not be infringing. That's why if you look at a patent document you see lots of individual claims. You patent each little novel piece, then you patent using those pieces in combination with existing technologies, then you patent the whole thing put together, and if the jurisdiction you're in allows it you also patent the stuff you DON'T intend to build that's sufficiently similar to what you WILL build.

Schematic diagrams actually don't play into it terribly often. If you're patenting a schematic diagram, that's a sign that what you're doing isn't actually novel -- you've just come up with a specific way of putting it together that hasn't been done before. Because all someone has to do is tweak your schematic to something that's technically different but still accomplishes the same goals and suddenly it's not covered anymore. So instead, you patent things like "using technique X to accomplish Y" and handwave the specific details of how it's put together.
 
In that case, I definitely share @Tesuji 's opinion that in Comic Book Universes Patents should be working completely different and under different parameters. There's just no way that with Patents like that the world should be recognizable; if Mr. Fantastic, from what I recall, patent stuff (even if he then sells the patent itself), shouldn't the USA then have access to a lot of amazing technology?

And then, from there, how many secret organizations have or had hands in the USA government/military, to then have access to those technologies and, even without intention, spreading them?

Haven't thought of how it would be on DC Comics, but that's the first thing that came to mind. Reed Richards isn't useless, everybody else is incompetent; although I may be too harsh on them.
 
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shepsquared said:
As far as WtR canon goes, they clearly tried and failed, moving on to better applications: cloning, telepathy and so on. Castigating them for something you think should be possible but doesn't bear out in a story (or in canon) where they can't even clone a kryptonian properly is a bit much.
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What story do you think this thread is for again?

Because this thread is for a story in which the main character bangs his head against the wall because people refuse to be practical with their resources on a routine basis. ☺
 
Lord Ernest said:
In that case, I definitely share @Tesuji 's opinion that in Comic Book Universes Patents should be working completely different and under different parameters. There's just no way that with Patents like that the world should be recognizable; if Mr. Fantastic, from what I recall, patent stuff (even if he then sells the patent itself), shouldn't the USA then have access to a lot of amazing technology?
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You assume that the US government has interest in sinking those kinds of taxpayer money into building laboratories to manufacture products based on a technically-sufficient but as-vague-as-possible description of the process. You assume that US politicians have the political inclination to effectively steal the inventor's profits for something that isn't a matter of life and death, and to do so publicly with their own reelection on the line.

If this were, say, the Chinese government, OF COURSE that would happen. Between rampant corruption and bribery and their communist history, stealing from inventors is par for the course, and they can make experimental laboratories for a fraction of the cost because of the quality of life offered to the employees.

EDIT: Another thought if you want to use it, @Mr Zoat, is that at least in the US you can patent larger systems that make use of patented or public technology. Even if Luthor can't patent the cosmic rod, he could patent the use of a cosmic rod as a municipal electricity generation facility, for example. (TECHNICALLY, such a patent would risk running up against the obviousness test, but Luthor's lawyers are very good at what they do.)
 
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Coda said:
You assume that the US government has interest in sinking those kinds of taxpayer money into building laboratories to manufacture products based on a technically-sufficient but as-vague-as-possible description of the process. You assume that US politicians have the political inclination to effectively steal the inventor's profits for something that isn't a matter of life and death, and to do so publicly with their own reelection on the line.
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But is not Real Life USA Government, which we shouldn't even mention, is Marvel Comics USA Government. The same one where a Senator can begin his campaign on an Anti-Mutant Platform, which is not the same as running for Senator and also being racist, that's running on a racist campaign? The same one where with enough political acumen Red Skull can be Senator with a lame-ass anagram as Dell Rusk?

You are correct, I should not assume, but still I don't think I'm overestimating them.
 
Lord Ernest said:
But is not Real Life USA Government, which we shouldn't even mention, is Marvel Comics USA Government. The same one where a Senator can begin his campaign on an Anti-Mutant Platform, which is not the same as running for Senator and also being racist, that's running on a racist campaign? The same one where with enough political acumen Red Skull can be Senator with a lame-ass anagram as Dell Rusk?

You are correct, I should not assume, but still I don't think I'm overestimating them.
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Your very examples demonstrate that the Marvel Comics USA Government is neither sufficiently competent nor sufficiently motivated to try.
 
Of course, if we're discussing intellectual property and superheroes, the one storyline that has to be brought up is Infinity Inc.

Infinity Inc. was somewhat the Earth-2 version of the Titans, formed by Starman's original sidekick, the Star-Spangled Kid, and consisting largely of the kids of JSA members (Alan Scott's kids, Wonder Woman's daughter, Batman's daughter, Hawkman's son, and Atom's son, plus a few others).

The Star-Spangled Kid apparently set it up so that Infinity Inc. owned all of the rights to the names used by the II members and that the SSK himself was the owner of the corporation... and then he died a few years after the first Crisis, which led to Lex Luthor buying the assets of the corporation from his estate, and during New 52, Lex then using those names as branding for new heroes under his control, despite the fact that some of the II members were still around and unaware that they didn't legally own their own name.

All of which I found hilariously plausible, because you have to figure out that a bunch of teenagers starting a superhero group is a lot like a bunch of teenagers starting a band, where you're going to have people sign away rights they really shouldn't, and not realizing the legal implications until it's too late.

To bring this back on-topic, this seems like the sort of thing I could see Paul delving into, given his lack of respect for codenames and secret identities, where you get into issues of just who has the rights to call themselves what name (and who's profiting from merchandise being put out using certain names). Adds another reason for him to call people by their real name. ("Oh, I'm sorry, Huntress, but Paula Crock has prior rights in that name, so I'm afraid I can't address you by that.")
 
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Coda said:
Your very examples demonstrate that the Marvel Comics USA Government is neither sufficiently competent nor sufficiently motivated to try.
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I concede the point on the competent part, but those were the first two individuals that came to mind because I imagined them motivated enough, at least to try and take advantage of advanced technology at the practical fingertips of the government for their nefarious purposes, no?
 
Lord Ernest said:
I concede the point on the competent part, but those were the first two individuals that came to mind because I imagined them motivated enough, at least to try and take advantage of advanced technology at the practical fingertips of the government for their nefarious purposes, no?
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It's one thing for an individual to be motivated enough to perform nefarious acts within the government. It's another entirely for an individual to be able to redirect significant portions of the government's budget to their own ends. The government as a whole lacks the kind of cohesive direction that would be practically necessary to perform something on the kind of world-changing scale as you describe.

I could easily see Francis Rodd, Corrupt Patent Examiner, becoming a supervillain by reproducing technology he stole from the patents and using 1498(a) as his loophole to say "nyahaha, you can't stop me, I've not done anything wrong". But would that change the face of United States technological progress and penetration? No, on the contrary it would become another example of exactly the kind of dead-end that Paul complains about so vehemently.

EDIT: No relation to Francis Rodd, 2nd Baron Rennell. I didn't even realise F. Rodd was a real name.
 
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Empiricist2 said:
There's also the whole laser eyes thing, which Kryptonians are known for. Marvel can kind of emulate the ranged/aoe attack by saying Shazam and then dodging the ensuing lightning bolt, but that's inferior in a number of ways. He has to call out his attack, not as a focusing aid or whatever but for the ability to work at all, and he has little to no control over the strength of the lightning bolt or its precise direction.
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I will point out that Marvel project/throw lightning of the none SHAZAM bolt variety. Power of Zeus after all.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
I will point out that Marvel project/throw lightning of the none SHAZAM bolt variety. Power of Zeus after all.
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I don't believe that this version can. During the fight with Sabbac, Adom and Marvel were both doing calling Shazam and then dodging the bolt.
Mr Zoat said:
"Yes! They will come, infernal majesty undimmed by summoning rites, their glorious voices speaking in the souls of all who have the strength to discern their meaning! And when that-!"

"SHAZAM!" / "SHAZAM!"

Two colossal bolts of lightning blast through the sky towards William and Adom. They blur as they fly to evade and the bolts miss, smashing into the barrier protecting Sabbac's ritual space. Runes around the edge of the tower flare and several of them gutter out.
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Empiricist2 said:
I don't believe that this version can. During the fight with Sabbac, Adom and Marvel were both doing calling Shazam and then dodging the bolt.
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I have always been under the impression that the Shazam bolt is basically the most powerful attack they have. So it would make sense to use it instead if you are trying to smash through a barrier.

As for the story, many of Adom's words lead me to believe that Billy has not really been trying to use, or understand, his powers to their fullest extent.
 
Empiricist2 said:
I don't believe that this version can. During the fight with Sabbac, Adom and Marvel were both doing calling Shazam and then dodging the bolt.
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From memory Billy didn't gain that power until the late 90's/early 2000's when he became the wizard and Freddy became Cap. Also when the continuity for the Marvels got super confusing so...

But it did become a mainstay power of his after the New 52 and I can kinda see the appeal, even if I think Billy should focus on punching and leave the electrokinesis to Freddy or Mary for some real differentiation between their powers.
 
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Converse (part 14)
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    • 14th September
    20:16 GMT -2

    I lay my right hand on the resonance receiver that serves as the Atlantean equivalent of a doorbell for a moment, then drift back in the water slightly. One magic guy disappeared from the material universe, another so far out of his depth that the fish have lights on their noses -though perhaps I shouldn't think that around here- and the other -shock horror- having a life outside of work.

    I don't know how he lives with himself.

    The water barrier marking the entrance to Sephtian's home becomes translucent as an Atlantean woman I don't recognise answers my ringing. It's not the same building as Sephtian lived in when I first met him; it's an upgrade in both size and location. Poseidonis real estate isn't any cheaper than the dry land equivalent. The woman in question is octofolk… No, that doesn't sound right. Octopodiform? A somewhat better proportioned Topo. The tentacles around the lower front part of her face are in constant motion, and hide the hard beak I know to be under there. Her skin is a sort of mottled sandy brown with darker spots and her eyes are black circles mounted on a smooth face.

    "Orange Lantern, I didn't know that Sephtian had invited you."

    "Oh… He didn't. I just.. wanted to ask him about something… Work-related. I can come back, it's not a problem."

    "An Orange Lantern project? Of course you can come in!" She takes hold of my right arm and tugs me through the doorway. "Most of us are thaumaturgists of one stripe or another. I know I've been positively green-" Her skin momentarily changes colour to match her words. "-with envy over the things he's been able to do with you."

    "I've only recently returned to Earth." A few of Sephtian's other guests look around as my escort continues pulling me through Sephtian's home. "I take it that his work is going well?"

    "So many projects were being held back by a lack of materials. Some of us have been nearly laying siege to the Conservatory's circuit-printing equipment."

    "If you're interested in working for a surface company with access to that sort of-."

    "Hah hahah!" She glances at me, her lip tentacles forming a circular shape. An indication of polite amusement. "You certainly don't waste time."

    "No, but it's a serious offer. KordTech is quite serious about securing marketplace dominance, and it doesn't really have any competition at the moment. But it also doesn't have its own pro-."

    "Paul!" Sephtian darts around another couple of Mantafolk and comes to a halt just in front of me. "Welcome back to Earth!"

    "Thank you. I apologise for intruding."

    "Oh, no, no. This.. whole gathering has been discussing the sea change in modern thaumaturgy your.. input has created. Your presence here is.. entirely appropriate." He stares me in the eyes for a moment, then smiles. "Should I.. assume that you have something new for me to work on?"

    "Yes, but don't want to take you away from your-."

    Sephtian lets out three loud clicks, and the conversations around us die. Guests begin filing in from other rooms. "Friends and colleagues! Orange Lantern has a problem for us!"

    "And you're sharing now?!"

    A quiet laugh passes around the room and Sephtian's head jerks towards the speaker. She has visible gills and a slightly metallic sheen to her skin, unusual in Atlanteans. "Sabina, I would certainly be delighted to share some of my headaches with you. Especially with you."

    "Hmpf."

    "So what is it? A new arcane device you need me to build? Something to.. analyse?"

    "That will.. probably be involved." I turn my head left and right, taking in my audience. "Is anyone here a member of a monotheistic religion?"

    I wait a moment, but no one responds in the affirmative. About what I expected; there are Atlantean monotheists but the idea hasn't ever really caught on. And as part of Ahri-ahn's legacy to Atlantian society high-end magic users are likely to have a more dismissive attitude to elementals in general.

    "Item one is an ancient Human magic user with a soul made out of Hell magic. Item two is a pair of wings cut from a high-end Angel. I need to know how to fuse the magics of-" Sephtian starts laughing and twitching, his right hand wiggling backwards and forwards and sending him in a circle. I think he's been drinking. "-the wings with the demonoid without destroying her. This is made more complex by the fact that she's empowering herself using a pocket Hell containing thousands of tormented souls. Ideally I'd like a way to release them somewhere as part of the process."

    My escort's tentacles are hanging straight down now. "Is that all?"

    "Um… I was wondering… If it would be possible to include scry-ward tattoos like mine? Since you're essentially going to have to recreate her soul from nothing without killing her, I thought you-" The whole room is staring at me. "-could..?"

    An Eel-man standing toward the back of the cluster in the library puts his right hand to his mouth. "Do you have a thaumatic break down of the demonoid's power?"

    I shake my right hand, causing three Praexis Demons to fall out of my ring. "No, but they do, and the woman herself is available for consultations." Ah… "But that will have to be on the surface; her abilities don't lend themselves to the aquatic life and she's loath to leave a heavily warded environment."

    The Praexis Demons give up on trying to waddle through the water. Instead, two of them pick up the third and throw him at the cluster around the library entrance. That provokes a sharp bit of backing up as it lands, tilts back its head and opens its cavernous mouth. A floating wisp of purple/red flame emerges from the back of its throat, and after a moment's delay the guests' hands rise, tattoos glow and invocations get muttered.

    Sephtian recovers himself somewhat, and clicks again. "Working parties! Pure thaumaturgists! We need a way to replace one energy with another without losing the fundamental structure. Spiritualists! We need theoretical models for the transmigrations of souls under a variety of conditions! Biomancers! How do we interface a set of wings with a Human body in such a way that they can function? Arcanists! Techniques for making any of this happen. How can we affect such magics?" He turns back to me as the guests begin to group up. "Do you.. have.. an example-?" I take three angel feather rounds out of subspace and hold them out to him. "Excellent. And artificers! We'll need mana taps and containment channels and… All manner of devices to handle the energies. Unless any of you have them already, in which case:-" He gestures imperiously towards his front door. "-get out for not sharing!"

    There's some distracted laughter, but the guests are mostly focusing on their new problem.

    "Anyone left?" A couple of slightly nervous hands. Sephtian looks perplexed. "And what do you do?"

    A Dolphin-man with a pocket of air bound to his blowhole hesitates slightly. "Elementalism?"

    Sephtian blinks at him. "Who invited you?"

    "Ah. You did? You said you liked my study piece on-."

    "Oh, that. Do you.. know anything about Angels?"

    "A little. There isn't much published, but I-."

    "Fine. Thought models. How is Orange Lantern's latest project going to need to behave in order to use their new magics?"

    The Dolphin-man looks around as the huddles turn their back on him. "Just… Think about it on my own?"

    "I'm sure you're used to it. Elementalism." Sephtian turns to the Pureblood owner of the other hand. "And you?"

    "I… No, I'm Ankhu's date. I work in the diplomatic corps."

    "In that case, you can help Orange Lantern work out the political ramifications of his actions, and the best way to deal with a simultaneous invasion of Earth by the armies of Hell and the Silver City when they find out what he's doing this time. And what all of the surface monotheists are going to make of it."

    "Ah… I… Really.. work more in inter-city diplomacy than-."

    "Just do your best. Ikeni!" Sephtian swims towards the pure thaumaturgy group while the two leftovers look at me slightly helplessly. "What about negative space dream form…"

    "Alright chaps, looks like you're with me."

    "Nothing wrong with elementalism."
     
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    • Lord Ernest said:
    In that case, I definitely share @Tesuji 's opinion that in Comic Book Universes Patents should be working completely different and under different parameters. There's just no way that with Patents like that the world should be recognizable; if Mr. Fantastic, from what I recall, patent stuff (even if he then sells the patent itself), shouldn't the USA then have access to a lot of amazing technology?
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    There's always the Minion answer to that. Or perhaps after the Armour Wars they changed the rules.
     
    The intensity of the chapters wax and wane... this one was a definite hit though. The amount of sudden energy Sephtian brought into the scene was amazing, and there was just the right amount of humor too.

    And what's elementalism? Or rather, why is it so disregarded?
     
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