NeoDarklight
Lord of Mind
OL only needs to interdict a single planet. GLs would need to interdict a truly massive area to have any real effect without the pirates finding any holes in the net right off the bat.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
John At Dawn
I'm here, get over it.
- Location
- 35-Feet Above Sea Level
That's fucking stupid. He was willing to kill the Joker, a mass murder confined to one planet, but not a group of space pirates who pillage and rape across and entire star system?
I would argue that leaving criminals alive to try and come retake the planet after Paul leaves is pretty against his objective.
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I dunno, I kinda get what he means here. These two things aren't the same at all.
Human history is filled with slavery.
This clan's present day is filled with slavery.
If the question is "Should we kill slavers" then it's usually referring to present-day active slavers, not "anyone who has the blood of someone who once committed slavery, somewhere in their veins."
These aliens either have a society built on exploiting another species, or they do it for fun. Either way, the whole system has got to go.
Killing them all isn't the answer, because slaughtering civilians and children holds no practical purpose, but I wouldn't take military victory off the table.
Where are the Gordanians in this system based? A nearby planet? Liveships? Orbital stations?
If it's the latter, then maybe OL could (with help) transition the entire station into some far off corner of the galaxy, then make good on those interdiction fields.
Simple, neat. Leaves the Gordanians with no real way to respond.
If that's not an option though, the best I can think of is destroying their ability to fight back (gut their ships weapons and transporters) then demand they leave or you'll continue shooting holes in their station. Then drop the interdiction fields to prevent them from coming back.
I can't imagine that OL thinks he can negotiate an entire planet of slaves (and all the already taken slaves) away from this clan of slavers peacefully.
Well, technically I suppose he could just try to buy them all.
That's the wrong sort of message to give these Gordanians though, because it shows them that slavery does pay, and it pays extremely well.
I'd rather go with extremely precise and overwhelming violence, followed by the threat of much less precise (yet still overwhelming) violence to follow, if they don't do exactly what you say.
It's somewhat heavy-handed, but 'heavy-handed' seems perfectly appropriate here.
Obviously while you're doing this, you'd be scanning for Tamaranian life-signs on the ships/station and beaming them away.
Wait, can OL even do that? He needs line-of-effect for transitions, right? Going into or out of a space-ship without breaking atmospheric containment is a problem. 'Swhy Boom-tubes are such a big deal.
Well, if not, then brute-forcing it seems the best way. Find a section of the ship that looks uninhabited, breach it, seal it behind you. Then start rounding up the slaves via filaments and transitioning.
Anyone who wants to stay can go back, but everyone else gets a free ride back planetside.
Then comes society-building. Try to round up all the tech and knowledge for Erraia's stash, (and those of people like her) compile it all together (plus whatever you yourself decide to teach them) and build a prefabricated library stocked with all of it, in every major population centre on the planet.
Fixing Tamaran is going to be a long-term project, but that should give people something to do, while you deal with Lafleeze.
Once he's gone, we'll have Green Lanterns in the vega-system, and they can take some of the peacekeeping burden while you work on other stuff.
- Location
- Hampden Park
It didn't really change the way I felt about it at all. We don't learn enough about the way Injust Lords of Order think to properly evaluate what they were thinking.
Most Green Lanterns flat out couldn't do it. It is much harder to make things with a green ring. They'd have to get one of the handful of Green Lanterns with a good knowledge of spatial engineering and electronics to do it or have the Guardians do it themselves. Then you've got the fact that the total volume of space around Vega is much greater than a bubble around a single star system and the fact that as soon as the Psions worked out what was happening there would be a counter attack.
- Location
- texas
New Earth Nabu started his relationship with Kent Nelson by letting one of his booby traps kill Kent's father, then raised the boy as his apprentice so he can be a future meatsuit that was later retconned into being unnecessary, then when Kent died he plucked his soul from his deserved afterlife to stick him in his amulet for future use (the same thing he did to Kent's wife), then wore his dead body, and then tried to curse the souls of Kent and Ezra so they would be denied their eternal rest for all eternity.
YJ Nabu is arguably one of the nicer portrayals of the character, in that his actions could be seen as the result of being cranky and paranoid after being kept on a shelf for 65 years, whereas NE Nabu purposefully weakened Dr Fate so he could take over people's bodies.
- Location
- Canada
I like how New Earth Nabu and Neutral Evil Nabu have the same letters there, because the latter is what I read your abbreviation as.
And it fits. Neutral Evil is basically True Selfish as an alignment.
Lots of versions of Nabu are creeps, it's not unique to Young Justice.
I'm liking this part of the space adventure better than the last part. It wasn't bad though.
I'm liking this part of the space adventure better than the last part. It wasn't bad though.
Obloquy
CrossMyHeart And HopeToDie, StickANeedleInMyEye
- Location
- the Physical Realm
Wait, are there people on Okaara? Like, actually living on it? On the same planet as Larfleeze?
I would expect him to kill or Identity Theft anyone who lands on the planet as a matter of course, just because they might steal some of his shinier. Or, you know, "You're breathing my air."
Hmm... so it's easier to shape constructs from green light than orange, and easier to transmute or construct things from orange light than from green. I remember that red rings are supposed to have very hard times when making constructs or generally building things...
What are some other limits like that, I wonder...
Interdicting a single planet mean people can't just FTL into orbit. Interdicting a system means people have to stop a few light hours from the star.
What OL proposes is interdicting an insanely vast area.
Additionally: OL is one Lantern. The GLs number in the hundreds and are backed by the Guardians. Plus they have had literally thousands of years to try and deal with the no-go zone being a pirate haven.
Or they could have the above build some automated factories. Or buy them. Or spend a few years teaching more Lanterns spatial engineering and electronics.
The scale isn't an issue. There are plenty of GLs and no particular rush. Spend a decade slowly building up the shell.
As to the Psions, so what? Nothing in the story or linked wikis suggests that the Psions could actually win a fight with the Green Lantern corps. They are tolerated because they live in a restricted area and the GLs have other stuff to be doing. Not because their ability to kill individual Lanterns makes them a genuine threat.
Chaoswind
Lord of nonsense
- Location
- Latin America
The math still doesn't work out, even with the sublight speeds/acceleration demonstrated by Guy during the Paulophudian moon trip and a interdiction field that covers two whole light years, it would still be less than three hundred years. I suggest you change that to a hundred years, that is plenty enough time for Tamaran to rebuild and is more mathematically accurate.
Edit: Yes a hundred years is plenty, they haven't completely lost their knowledge, only the large scale infrastructure, also proper motivation and a deadline, lends itself to a focused command economy.
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- Location
- texas
Yes, the warlords of Okaara run a combat school with such diverse alumni as Starfire and her sister from Tamaran and their classmate Fatality from Xanshi, Primus and Kalista of the Omega Men I understand, and the human White Lotus.
How a human ended up a student on Okaara, I have no idea. Paul probably won't run into her, although that would be funny.
"There's an exchange student from Earth on Okaara? Seriously?"
There's also been an Okaaran green lantern or two.
Larfleeze basically plays Gollum in the underground temple in the forbidden forest of Okaara.
Silverias
Seeing is Believing
- Location
- Squiddy Places
Well, The Injustice Nabu acted on the command of The Lords of Order, so I suppose it depends how much agency you put on him.
okay, it appears various people have mistaken beliefs about some of the facts of the situation:
1) the 'Vega System' is not a single star system, it's a star cluster with a total of 26 inhabited planets (I'm unaware of the total number of stars, or exactly how many stars those 26 worlds are spread among)
2) Presumably, Tamaran is the only inhabited planet in it's particular star system, allowing OL's interdiction zone idea to work.
3) Larfleeze does live on an inhabited world (Okarra) but he rarely leaves his cave (hidden in the Forest of Weeds) because he's afraid someone will come and steal part of his collection (which is mostly garbage admittedly). The fact that the OCPB does draw the greediest beings in the galaxy there both reinforces this belief and provides him with Construct Lanterns.
4) Simply 'killing all the slavers' is neither a quick nor easy plan, since he'd have to destroy not only the Gordanian clan that 'owns' Tameran, but also the rest of the Gordanian clans, and the Cidellians, and the Psions, (and maybe the Brax and/or Okarrans, can't recall if they use slaves too) and the various other pirates/mercs that would be hired to help against him/figure they'd be next on the chopping block. Basically he'd have to go to war with most of the Vega system and that much use of his ring may well attract Larfleeze's attention.
TL
R slavery is endemic throughout the Vega cluster, because the ruling powers are slavers. War on slavery = war against Vega.
1) the 'Vega System' is not a single star system, it's a star cluster with a total of 26 inhabited planets (I'm unaware of the total number of stars, or exactly how many stars those 26 worlds are spread among)
2) Presumably, Tamaran is the only inhabited planet in it's particular star system, allowing OL's interdiction zone idea to work.
3) Larfleeze does live on an inhabited world (Okarra) but he rarely leaves his cave (hidden in the Forest of Weeds) because he's afraid someone will come and steal part of his collection (which is mostly garbage admittedly). The fact that the OCPB does draw the greediest beings in the galaxy there both reinforces this belief and provides him with Construct Lanterns.
4) Simply 'killing all the slavers' is neither a quick nor easy plan, since he'd have to destroy not only the Gordanian clan that 'owns' Tameran, but also the rest of the Gordanian clans, and the Cidellians, and the Psions, (and maybe the Brax and/or Okarrans, can't recall if they use slaves too) and the various other pirates/mercs that would be hired to help against him/figure they'd be next on the chopping block. Basically he'd have to go to war with most of the Vega system and that much use of his ring may well attract Larfleeze's attention.
TL
R slavery is endemic throughout the Vega cluster, because the ruling powers are slavers. War on slavery = war against Vega.
Technological society of spacefarers; that makes zero sense.
Slaves are at best a luxury good that doesn't contribute much in the way of economic value.
Certainly not garrison the damn planet value. Especially when you are actively degrading their value by destroying anything approaching educational apparatus in the system, which leaves you with a lot of marginally knowledgeable sapients.
Compare it to the way the Reach treat their
No way to run a successful railroad.
At the rate the Gordanians are currently going, it will cost more to garrison Tamaran than they could possibly make back in tribute and slaves.
Which means there's possibly something odd going on.
Maybe there's a religious imperative of some sort.
Or the Tamaraneans are being harvested for Psion experiments, which given what happened to the royal twins, is at least semi-canon.
Or Tamaran is basically an exile outpost for the stupidest Gordanians, and isn't really supposed to produce anything.
I'd suspect there was something valuable in the system that the Gordanians were mining, but OL would have seen it on his way in.
If I was dealing with a superhuman of uncategorized powers?
The lack of a body would leave me extremely paranoid.
Especially when said superhuman was among other things a precog.
Just hoping against hope that the first independent human to roam the stars in this AU didn't get himself killed...
The part where people are saying the math doesn't add up is that just interdicting the planet itself only means the raiders need to simply ftl to the starsystem and then stl the rest of the wayokay, it appears various people have mistaken beliefs about some of the facts of the situation:
1) the 'Vega System' is not a single star system, it's a star cluster with a total of 26 inhabited planets (I'm unaware of the total number of stars, or exactly how many stars those 26 worlds are spread among)
2) Presumably, Tamaran is the only inhabited planet in it's particular star system, allowing OL's interdiction zone idea to work.
3) Larfleeze does live on an inhabited world (Okarra) but he rarely leaves his cave (hidden in the Forest of Weeds) because he's afraid someone will come and steal part of his collection (which is mostly garbage admittedly). The fact that the OCPB does draw the greediest beings in the galaxy there both reinforces this belief and provides him with Construct Lanterns.
4) Simply 'killing all the slavers' is neither a quick nor easy plan, since he'd have to destroy not only the Gordanian clan that 'owns' Tameran, but also the rest of the Gordanian clans, and the Cidellians, and the Psions, (and maybe the Brax and/or Okarrans, can't recall if they use slaves too) and the various other pirates/mercs that would be hired to help against him/figure they'd be next on the chopping block. Basically he'd have to go to war with most of the Vega system and that much use of his ring may well attract Larfleeze's attention.
TL
That rather depends on the range of the interdictors.
Do remember that the techbase OL has access to includes things that are rather higher level than much of what's easily available to the nation-states of the Vega Cluster. And that neither resource cost nor power is an issue for an Orange Lantern as it would be for an interstellar polity.
So while everyone else might build satellite arrays in the tens or hundreds of tons?
OL might simply build a Ceres-sized interdictor and shut down everything for light-years.
For all we know, interdictor efficiency scales with size; we have no knowledge of the physics involved.
Chaoswind
Lord of nonsense
- Location
- Latin America
The math still doesn't add up, again even if the retaliation force has to slow boat two whole light years it would still be faster than three hundred years and that is if we assume they can't shot c fractional Kinectic weapons as those should take orders of magnitude less time.
We are already assuming light year ranges for the interdiction field, anything less is measurable in years (months) to a few decades at the most.
Edit: To make it SIMPLE to understand an interdiction field ten light years across would delay a retaliation RKKV ten to twenty years.
The Citadel and the Psions have the technology to make those, thus AT best Paul is buying Tamaran a decade IF they decide to use them.
Edit2: Paul needs to make an interdiction field that would cover the entirety of the Vega systems (considering the earlier stated distance from earth) for his 'three hundred years' nonsense to work and CLEARLY he isn't talking about killing FTL travel in the entirety of Vega.
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- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
I mean, the big issue with bringing in Greece and Rome is that their form of slavery was radically different from what we're seeing here and what went down in the American South. Greco-Roman slavery, for one thing, had laws about how a slave could be treated - you couldn't legally beat or otherwise physically punish a slave without providing due cause, you couldn't kill a slave you owned unless there was evidence they had committed major crimes (rape/murder kind of major) - and most significantly, it was not uncommon for city slaves (and even field slaves) to be freed by their masters, to the point where a cornerstone of how Roman business worked was that there'd be a circle of ex-slaves who worked as employees and business partners to their former owner, which helped encourage a basic level of decency in many slave owners & helped their society as a whole view slaves as being low-ranking servants or "people-in-waiting" than nonsapient possessions. Likewise, while slaves were technically not allowed to own property or be married, those laws were often ignored in practice, and widespread use of slaves as actors, singers, musicians, clothing-makers, gladiators, and other such positions meant that slaves regularly became celebrities.
There were definitely issues with the system, mind: slaves who were sent to work in mines or quarries often endured gulag-like conditions (because it was often seen as a way to dispose of "savages", criminals, and other groups who were considered to either deserve such treatment or have already fallen through the cracks of societal empathy), the actual punishments for beating or killing a slave were far from equal with those for beating or killing a freeman, and abuse of various kinds could and did happen that might have been halted or at least ameliorated by the lack of slavery.
However, it was nothing like what appears to be going down here on Tamaran. The Gordanians deny the Tamaranians anything beyond Dark Ages technology, actively seek to destroy their culture and all attempts to retain any since of social unity, & respond with mass killings via orbital bombardment if they think they're being disobeyed, all while demanding yearly payments for the privilege of not being exterminated completely. Gordanian "hunting parties" routinely descend on a random area of the planet to kill the locals for sport or take them offworld for unknown purposes.
That is a level of casual sadism and sociopathic disregard that honestly exceeds the Deep South, repulsive as the slavery practices there were. The only human civilization I'm aware of that even approached that were the ancient Spartans: their slaves, referred to as helots, were treated as less than animals. Spartan laws included a mandatory minimum of yearly abuse slaveowners were expected to dispense to their helots, and a common game played by rambunctious Spartan teenagers was to slip into the helots' sleeping quarters at night and compete to see who could kill the most before the other helots noticed and woke the others.
The Spartans, for reference, were considered vicious, brutal, and more than a bit mad by their contemporaries, who regularly murdered their own infant children if they happened to be deformed or sickly. Instances of helots in a region rising up, invariably because of how poorly they were treated and how much hatred the Spartans engendered in them, were one of the greatest problems the Spartan nation had to deal with (which, by the way is why they instituted mandatory beatings for all helots, in the belief that keeping in semi-constant pain on top of being overworked & underfed would leave them too drained to revolt), and they happened very frequently right up until the entire culture's collapse.
At this point, trying to negotiate with the Gordanians will constitute, at best, purchasing the Tamaranians and their homeworld from the clan that currently claims ownership of it. While certainly possible, it still means handing the Gordanians, a race that has done nothing to merit such benevolence, a giant chunk of resources and waving merrily as they sail off into the sunset with their reward for committing recreational murder, cultural genocide, and Hell knows what other atrocities to these people. Anything else (barring just telling them to submit or die, which will then necessitate one or more object lessons) is likely to result in the Gordanians either telling him to fuck off or trying to kill him, and in either case they now know to initiate a fresh round of purges among the local Tamaranian population and be on guard for spaceborne attackers.
OL's disturbing fixation with trying to "civilize" the degenerate warlords, slaver-kings, tinpot dictators, war-criminals-for-hire, and general psychopath Pick'N'Mix of the Vega Systems (even though there is no real reason to believe that such endeavors will or could ever succeed without implanting bombs in all involved parties' heads or otherwise forcing them to reform under threat of death), to the point where he intends to destroy the only group of natives willing to try and make Vega a less horrible place because he considers them "too disruptive", was already nauseating enough. However, doing that, and then claiming his morals won't permit the swift removal of a group whose actions here make the Nazis look restrained? That is fucking disgusting, not least of which because it gives the impression that Paul either prioritizes the rights of oppressors and murderers over those of their victims, or that his senses of empathy & ethics are entirely unimportant compared to his desire to prove that he can "win" via means he views as more challenging or more enlightened than more direct, traditional, and morally-motivated ways of handling things.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
You have the ability to run everywhere in your city and it is healthy for you to do so. I'm guessing you don't though, because it's hard work and who wants to use their own power when you could use a machine's?
Says who? Sure, they're pretty shitty, and when Tamaran gets back running again I imagine they won't look fondly on them. But why specifically does Tamaran need to go to war with the Gordanians? So far as I know, Tamaran doesn't worship any god that demands blood for any transgression, or follow a moral code that says the same.
Although it's worth pointing out the distinction between killing the slavers and killing the society of the slavers. It can be morally justified to attack the people who actively capture and enslave people but leave their society unharmed. Whether or not that is the case here is yet to be determined, but given the description of the Gordanians that are personally enslaving Tamaran I can see a case for them to be destroyed. The Gordanians overall of course should be left unharmed.
Maybe the Citadel would have to send a sublight probe to determine what's going on before sending in ships? That would roughly halve the required radius of exclusion.
That would likely incentivize them to make FTL methods that the GLC doesn't know how to block. If the SI has 50 different interdiction methods on his database of commonly used tech, then it can't be all that hard to come up with new ones.
For the Joker, it's basically impossible to make him even a half decent member of society without completely erasing his identity, which defeats the point of not killing him. For the Gordanians as a whole, it's unlikely there is anything inherent that prevents them from being better, so they are a candidate for non-lethal intervention.
Maybe the ships that can sustain a crew for long enough have a very slow acceleration? Even if a regular battleship is capable of making it to Tamaran within a decade, that doesn't mean it can sustain the crew complement for that long. Or stay in working order.
I don't get the issue.
OL: I'd rather not kill them if I can avoid it.
Certain Readers: How dare he declare his unshakable refusal to kill anyone!?
OL: Killing isn't off the table, it's just not the first option.
Certain Readers: Now he's giving them free tables?!
OL: I'd rather not kill them if I can avoid it.
Certain Readers: How dare he declare his unshakable refusal to kill anyone!?
OL: Killing isn't off the table, it's just not the first option.
Certain Readers: Now he's giving them free tables?!
Tactical Tunic
Glorious Burgerman of Eagleland
- Location
- Holy Terra
That's only British citizens. Slavery was made illegal within the British isles in 1807 and completely banned in the British empire in 1843. And lets not kid ourselves here, serfdom is pretty much slavery.
At that point the active lethal anti slavery operations carried out by what was (at the time) the most powerful navy on earth helped to end the international slave trade.
On the other hand, the Royal Navy had both the rep and the power to pull that off, and was mostly dealing with nations and not chaotic wastelands in a millions of years long free for all.
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- Location
- Hampden Park
Yep. In the comics the Controllers drift past them on the way to his cave. Larfleeze really doesn't leave the cave unless he has to.
I admit that I may be misremembering the television program in question, but my recollection is that a black slave in Britain fled his owner, then appealed to the courts when they tried to demand his return. The judge ruled that he shouldn't be. Since this is a rather old memory I can't quote names I'm afraid.
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Chaoswind
Lord of nonsense
- Location
- Latin America
Unmanned drone ships, RKKV ensure a response time measued in months/years, a hundred years already presumes we are dealing with an unreasonable amount of difficulties for crewed fleets.
Again an interdiction field is a very interesting piece of lore/tech than can indeed buy time for the people of Tamaran, but that time is measured in years, or decades at the most, to buy the people of Tamaran three hundred years the interdiction field has to have a range of dozens of light years (like +64), and the Citadel has to refuse to use anything else aside a poorly crewed fleet. At those ranges the interdiction field is going to completely kill space ship traffic over a significant area of the Vega sector, thus i see no reason why the people of the Citadel won't break the glass and use more efficient retaliation forces.
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Tactical Tunic
Glorious Burgerman of Eagleland
- Location
- Holy Terra
It was effectively, but not litteraly banned in England and Wales in 1772, Scotland in 1778, Ireland and some colonies in 1807, in all officially held colonies in 1833, and everything held by the East India Trading Company, St Helena, and Ceylon in 1843. In 1807 is when the British government started making treaties to interdict ships involved in the slave Trade.
- Location
- In the mathematical center of your mind palace.
Goodness me you people are bloodthirsty. If he can defeat, or preferably change the gordanians without slaughtering all of them why wouldn't he? What would be the point of killing them? OL has already shown he's capable of using lethal force when necessary, and I more than suspect it will be necessary at some point. But why not strive to be better than one's enemies? Why not strive to make the universe a better place by being better? He's a hero, remember?
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