Shepard Quest Mk VII, Age of Revy (ME/MCU)

[Dark as Silver]

So you yourself admitted that it makes sense for us to research it. Which means it makes sense for us to suggest to the organization literally going to war where people are likely to die and ask them to preserve dead soldiers bodies so that we may potentially rez them, because otherwise they'd die for good, because it just makes sense if we plan on doing the Lazarus project some time in the future and we do have good reasons to do it.

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Hang on. Brian probably isn't the logical candidate that would be suggested if we started Project Lazarus without saying we're doing it specifically for him. Theres probably some General or ship captain that the alliance would want back far more than one of probably many promising young soldiers that died in this fight.
Given the price associated with it in canon this tech being available to ordinary soldiers is multiple revisions down the line.

And the organisation going to war???? Sorry I've not really been part of this argument, but part of the current vote is Revy's Legionary set up for this fight and there was a 50/50 chance we'd be present for a Revy Interupt. It feels like the organisation being at war is already settled so what are you talking about?

 

[Red Bovine]

Hang on. Brian probably isn't the logical candidate that would be suggested if we started Project Lazarus without saying we're doing it specifically for him. Theres probably some General or ship captain that the alliance would want back far more than one of probably many promising young soldiers that died in this fight.
Given the price associated with it in canon this tech being available to ordinary soldiers is multiple revisions down the line.

And the organisation going to war???? Sorry I've not really been part of this argument, but part of the current vote is Revy's Legionary set up for this fight and there was a 50/50 chance we'd be present for a Revy Interupt. It feels like the organisation being at war is already settled so what are you talking about?

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Sorry, I meant the System Alliance and the army. As for the price feels like it should be noted that when Cerberus did the project they were working blind and Shepard's body in canon was pretty damaged. Here we have a comic book level super genius who is not only likely the smartest person in the galaxy and past million years but Shepard also worked to improve knowledge on such things as shown with the peak human treatments which pretty much mass produced Miranda for the rest of humanity while fixing nearly all genetic conditions and removing diseases for the races. And this is also taking into account the ability to cure aging on a wide scale across the galaxy.

Imagine that the Lazarus project would be much more able to be mass produced on a more wider scale with Revy at the helm. Which is why I suggested bringing it up to the army.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Sorry, I meant the System Alliance and the army. As for the price feels like it should be noted that when Cerberus did the project they were working blind and Shepard's body in canon was pretty damaged. Here we have a comic book level super genius who is not only likely the smartest person in the galaxy and past million years but Shepard also worked to improve knowledge on such things as shown with the peak human treatments which pretty much mass produced Miranda for the rest of humanity while fixing nearly all genetic conditions and removing diseases for the races. And this is also taking into account the ability to cure aging on a wide scale across the galaxy.

Imagine that the Lazarus project would be much more able to be mass produced on a more wider scale with Revy at the helm. Which is why I suggested bringing it up to the army.

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Just to be clear, the Lazarus project cost 4 billion credits. Lazarus Project
If we take a best case scenario and Revy can reduce the cost to 1/1000th, thats 4 million credits per person.
That is 100 times more than it costs to equip a soldier (non power armoured). Nearly twice the cost of a Centurion. Half the cost of a Tiger. The exact cost of a Prometheus mech.
If the Alliance where willing to spend 4 million per soldier then either everyone would be in power armour or they'd just buy mechs and have no humans in the firing line.
I consider this to be an extreme best case in cost reduction. Arguing "But magic Revy dust" only goes so far, its just not economical.

 

[HanEmpire]

4M Credits is peanuts to Revy, especially when it comes to a friend. Revy has precious few of those as is, let alone a childhood friend and an ex. Reducing this down to pure economics goes against the characterization of Revy, who is not a sociopath or psychopath incapable of valuing human life over profit margins.

In addition, the SA would definitely dump 4M credits on an elite commando. They're rare, and possess experience and loyalty to state that are difficult to locate and refine. Not to mention the optic of being able to save soldiers and not doing it because (affordable) money.

 

[Dark as Silver]

4M Credits is peanuts to Revy, especially when it comes to a friend. Revy has precious few of those as is, let alone a childhood friend and an ex. Reducing this down to pure economics goes against the characterization of Revy, who is not a sociopath or psychopath incapable of valuing human life over profit margins.

In addition, the SA would definitely dump 4M credits on an elite commando. They're rare, and possess experience and loyalty to state that are difficult to locate and refine. Not to mention the optic of being able to save soldiers and not doing it because (affordable) money.

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So, A you're mixing up arguments. I was defending the validity of wanting to research it for its own sake and explaining that the SA would probably not use this on Brian. I don't particularly care if people dump money on resurrecting Brian as a seperate thing either way.
B: when I say

I consider this to be an extreme best case in cost reduction.

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Please understand that to mean, "Even in a situation that I consider impossibly good". I expect costs to be more around the billion to 500 million mark, however because I don't want to argue over how much magic Revy can sprinkle on the project I took an estimate that nobody would argue with, because it still doesn't work even then.

Anyway:
Brian ain't an elite commando. He's a newbie who might be on track for that. People are basing a lot of arguments on him having the 'potential' however that is entirely OOC knowledge. He didn't have Mindoir, the Skillian Blitz hasn't happened ect. The things that made people realise Shepard was a Spectre candidate haven't happened. ATM, he's probably one among hundreds of recent trainees who seemed like they'd be headed for the N programs in time.
And, militaries deal with that all the time. Its literally the job. People are already dying because the SA didn't spend more on Legionaries/Centurions/other PA tech, this is just one degree of separation less.

 

[dbRevned]

Please understand that to mean, "Even in a situation that I consider impossibly good" I expect costs to be more around the billion to 500 million mark, however because I don't want to argue over how much magic Revy can sprinkle on the project I took an estimate that nobody would argue with, because it still doesn't work even then.

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the Best I could see fore the common soldier, would be a 401k type thing with the military matching money you put in (up to an amount per week/month) where If you retire and dont need it you keep the money from it, But If you die they can take the money and if theres enough use it for the treatment to bring you back so life.

 

[Dark as Silver]

the Best I could see fore the common soldier, would be a 401k type thing with the military matching money you put in (up to an amount per week/month) where If you retire and dont need it you keep the money from it, But If you die they can take the money and if theres enough use it for the treatment to bring you back so life.

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Maybe if it is the impossibly cheap one (no 401K will cover hundreds of millions) but just to keep people grounded. If we're using 1 Credit == 1 Dollar, this is the equivilant of expecting the average GI to put down 2 million dollars (the impossibly optimistic number).

 

[Red Bovine]

Just to be clear, the Lazarus project cost 4 billion credits. Lazarus Project
If we take a best case scenario and Revy can reduce the cost to 1/1000th, thats 4 million credits per person.
That is 100 times more than it costs to equip a soldier (non power armoured). Nearly twice the cost of a Centurion. Half the cost of a Tiger. The exact cost of a Prometheus mech.
If the Alliance where willing to spend 4 million per soldier then either everyone would be in power armour or they'd just buy mechs and have no humans in the firing line.
I consider this to be an extreme best case in cost reduction. Arguing "But magic Revy dust" only goes so far, its just not economical.

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I think that the main reason the Lazarus project was so expensive for canon Shepard was that they were spending a ton of money just figuring it out how to do it in the first place and I believe it was mentioned the cost wasn't so bad for them since they did get a lot of money from medical knowledge gained. Imagine that like all things researched it would have become cheaper over time the more it was researched if they shared the process with others.

Think you are seriously underestimating Shepard who is a comic book super genius and whose thing is making tech that is mass producible and affordable on a mass scale. This is someone who made near infinite energy affordable on a mass scale, who gifted a Captain America package treatment to the citizens affordable galaxy wide, who can likely cure freaking age for the common man. If anyone can make such a treatment more affordable to at something like the common soldier, though hoping it may become affordable to the common man eventually, it's goddamn Revy Rebecca Shepard the galaxies resident super genius.

 

[Dark as Silver]

I think that the main reason the Lazarus project was so expensive for canon Shepard was that they were spending a ton of money just figuring it out how to do it in the first place and I believe it was mentioned the cost wasn't so bad for them since they did get a lot of money from medical knowledge gained. Imagine that like all things researched it would have become cheaper over time the more it was researched if they shared the process with others.

Think you are seriously underestimating Shepard who is a comic book super genius and whose thing is making tech that is mass producible and affordable on a mass scale. This is someone who made near infinite energy affordable on a mass scale, who gifted a Captain America package treatment to the citizens affordable galaxy wide, who can likely cure freaking age for the common man. If anyone can make such a treatment more affordable to at something like the common soldier, though hoping it may become affordable to the common man eventually, it's goddamn Revy Rebecca Shepard the galaxies resident super genius.

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I can't argue against someone whose logic begins and ends at "Revy is a supergenius she'll figure it out."

Everyone has limits dude. Thats why tech trees exist.

 

[Red Bovine]

I can't argue against someone whose logic begins and ends at "Revy is a supergenius she'll figure it out."

Everyone has limits dude. Thats why tech trees exist.

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Have you seen the tech tree and the shit Revy can do down the line? But on top of that I'm basing this on her past feats. As in things she has already accomplished, of which included making her technology including medical technology wide spread and affordable to everyone in the galaxy.

 

[tri2]

I can't argue against someone whose logic begins and ends at "Revy is a supergenius she'll figure it out."

Everyone has limits dude. Thats why tech trees exist.

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Th only real limit Revy has is the amount time she has in one day. and even that might be solvable with enough eezo bullshitery

 

[Red Bovine]

Th only real limit Revy has is the amount time she has in one day. and even that might be solvable with enough eezo bullshitery

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Random person universe: "Shepard, you can't both solve death and make it affordable to the masses! It's impossible!"

Revy: "Don't tell me what I can and can't do!"

 

[Zealous Specter]

How long would such a project even take. Cause if even now one or two people die a second. Then 100 years from now... How much would this need to be scaled up so it can even be feesible for it to be open to the masses.

Unless there is some limiter, like age group restricting to children only, or something like that. Without that, PI is gonna have a massive backlog of bodies instantly. And this isn't really something revy can solve just by being magic smart.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Have you seen the tech tree and the shit Revy can do down the line? But on top of that I'm basing this on her past feats. As in things she has already accomplished, of which included making her technology including medical technology wide spread and affordable to everyone in the galaxy.

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Progressing the tech tree takes time my dude. You haven't even tried to contest that my numbers are correct or that 1/1000th of the price would be likely not an impossibly good situation.
If you're now arguing that we need to research Lazarus Project MK.XXXX then at least acknowledge the goalpost has shifted and we can move on to discussing where is a reasonable point where dimishing returns have kicked in.

Th only real limit Revy has is the amount time she has in one day. and even that might be solvable with enough eezo bullshitery

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Not to argue with the QM but...
She's also affected by causality. So she need to go through the tech tree one at a time.
Unless you're going to say now that I actually underestimated the cost reduction when I justified that it would not be used for foot soldiers in the SA, nothing changes. Just now, maybe, farther down the line, much farther down the line, It might be viable. Which whatever, I would never contest that given infinite time Revy could manage it just that that was not the discussion.

Also bad idea to float eezo bullshit as a tech multiplier, because if thats on the table it's all well research in the next couple turns and the tech tree will probably need to be rebalanced.

 

[Red Bovine]

Progressing the tech tree takes time my dude. You haven't even tried to contest that my numbers are correct or that 1/1000th of the price would be likely not an impossibly good situation.
If you're now arguing that we need to research Lazarus Project MK.XXXX then at least acknowledge the goalpost has shifted and we can move on to discussing where is a reasonable point where dimishing returns have kicked in.

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The 1/1000 thing being the best we could is pretty much a guess you just made and assumed was true. I'm pointing out that it's likely wrong due to the precedence that Revy has set with making all her other tech accessible to the public masses. You keep using Cerberus' canon example but miss this isn't canon, we aren't Cerberus and Revy's existence drastically changes things. Biggest example being arc reactors actually making laser tech actually practical to field as weapons which isn't the case in canon Mass Effect.

Revy overall has consistently shown to have better tech than everyone else bar the Reapers that is decades, centuries and even millenia ahead of everyone else. She has better medical knowledge and will have better cybernetic technology available. Which as shown with all her other stuff will make the tech far more affordable. Which again we literally see her do constantly with things like the Captain America package being available to the masses.

How long would such a project even take. Cause if even now one or two people die a second. Then 100 years from now... How much would this need to be scaled up so it can even be feesible for it to be open to the masses.

Unless there is some limiter, like age group restricting to children only, or something like that. Without that, PI is gonna have a massive backlog of bodies instantly. And this isn't really something revy can solve just by being magic smart.

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Simple, just make the tech available for everyone out there like we have been doing with our other medical tech.

 

[tri2]

Progressing the tech tree takes time my dude. You haven't even tried to contest that my numbers are correct or that 1/1000th of the price would be likely not an impossibly good situation.
If you're now arguing that we need to research Lazarus Project MK.XXXX then at least acknowledge the goalpost has shifted and we can move on to discussing where is a reasonable point where dimishing returns have kicked in.

Not to argue with the QM but...
She's also affected by causality. So she need to go through the tech tree one at a time.
Unless you're going to say now that I actually underestimated the cost reduction when I justified that it would not be used for foot soldiers in the SA, nothing changes. Just now, maybe, farther down the line, much farther down the line, It might be viable. Which whatever, I would never contest that given infinite time Revy could manage it just that that was not the discussion.

Also bad idea to float eezo bullshit as a tech multiplier, because if thats on the table it's all well research in the next couple turns and the tech tree will probably need to be rebalanced.

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you ain't gonna pull the secret of unlimited SCIENCE from me that easily.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Biggest example being arc reactors actually making laser tech actually practical to field as weapons which isn't the case in canon Mass Effect.

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....
I would love to hear you explain how we're going to use Lasers as part of a Resurrection tech. Lightning not cool enough anymore Dr Frankenstein?
Again:

I can't argue against someone whose logic begins and ends at "Revy is a supergenius she'll figure it out."

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Its impossible, because whenever I disagree you just say I don't have enough faith. This has more in common with arguing the existence of a deity than it does any actual serious planning conversation

you ain't gonna pull the secret of unlimited SCIENCE from me that easily.

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib084tzN8H0
E:
Somehow missed this.

How long would such a project even take. Cause if even now one or two people die a second. Then 100 years from now... How much would this need to be scaled up so it can even be feesible for it to be open to the masses.

Unless there is some limiter, like age group restricting to children only, or something like that. Without that, PI is gonna have a massive backlog of bodies instantly. And this isn't really something revy can solve just by being magic smart.

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We've made no progress on this part of the tech tree so its a full

Advanced Prosthetics	800
- Full Body Prosthetics	1600
- - Project Lazarus	3200

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5600 research points away, you'd need UberJJK or someone who knows where all the planning spread sheets are to give you an actual timeline.
Given that in order to contest the fact that its going to be extremely expensive to be widely deployed they seem to have retreated to the idea that we can do further research to reduce the cost of the process its going to be more to acheive that. however theres no precedent so far for repeating research so we can't say how much it will increase, it could increase in cost it could be a smaller amount than the original tech.

 

[tri2]

think of it this way, every bit of supertech heroes and villains made in Marvel? Any other supergenius would eventually be able to make if given enough time and resources. Stark? Making ultimiate nullifiers like reed richards, making doom bots, making space ships, making sentinels, cloning asgardians. then imagine Amadeus Cho doing the same. Tech has no real user restriction, merely restricted by knowledge, and if supergeniuses are good at one thing, its learning really fast.

 

[dbRevned]

reading the Page, I'm pretty sure most of the Cost 4 Billion cost was research on whats needed. So honestly I would assume the Finished needed parts would be considerable cheaper to build, since at that point it would only cost the labor, and materialize needed. And Assuming some of the materialize which was used in cannon are super expensive, while Revy has made new materials since then and I can easily see her being able to use cheaper materialize. Not only because 'revy super science' but also because she wouldnt be satisfied with a ok worked once we are done, she would go till it becomes mass producible. which Yes the first couple iterations would probably use super expensive materials, but part of refining proto-types is either making the materials easier to get, or figuring out cheaper materials that can be used.

 

[Red Bovine]

....
I would love to hear you explain how we're going to use Lasers as part of a Resurrection tech. Lightning not cool enough anymore Dr Frankenstein?
Again:

Its impossible, because whenever I disagree you just say I don't have enough faith. This has more in common with arguing the existence of a deity than it does any actual serious planning conversation

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I used the laser tech example by pointing out how tech can make things drastically more feasible. Example with the laser tech was that it was completely impractical in canon due to the insane energy requirements but for this quest is possible thanks to arc reactors which came from Revy.

Then there is the fact that while it does cost a ton of money to research something once something is researched in things like medical tech it becomes far more cheaper to implement the finished product once they know how. Example being countries spending millions on researching a vaccine and then once said research is done the vaccine is easily able to be given out to the public for cheap.

That's the logic I'm basing things on along with the canon examples seen in this quest.

 

[Dark as Silver]

reading the Page, I'm pretty sure most of the Cost 4 Billion cost was research on whats needed. So honestly I would assume the Finished needed parts would be considerable cheaper to build, since at that point it would only cost the labor, and materialize needed. And Assuming some of the materialize which was used in cannon are super expensive, while Revy has made new materials since then and I can easily see her being able to use cheaper materialize. Not only because 'revy super science' but also because she wouldnt be satisfied with a ok worked once we are done, she would go till it becomes mass producible. which Yes the first couple iterations would probably use super expensive materials, but part of refining proto-types is either making the materials easier to get, or figuring out cheaper materials that can be used.

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The labour and materials, are an extremely specialised team of very talented doctors and technicials observing and managing the process to make sure it doesn't go wrong, and highly advanced possibly needing to be reprogrammed to the specific individual nano machines.
Yes it will almost certainly be cheaper the second time, but thats far from cheap.

 

[lbmaian]

Project Lazarus is pretty far down my list of research priorities. There's so many other technologies I'd rather her (or Mordin) focus on.
With regards to Brian, if you can find some in-character reason for Revy to ask for his body or brain to be put on ice until we get Lazarus tech in a year or three, go for it.

 

[Red Bovine]

The labour and materials, are an extremely specialised team of very talented doctors and technicials observing and managing the process to make sure it doesn't go wrong, and highly advanced possibly needing to be reprogrammed to the specific individual nano machines.
Yes it will almost certainly be cheaper the second time, but thats far from cheap.

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That argument of needing specialists can apply to pretty much all surgeries. And while resurrecting people may be more complicated imagine that many would have their bodies intact enough to be relatively easy compared to someone like canon Shepards condition at the time of his own resurrection.

On the subject we might want to consider making a medical VI project to make medical procedural easier and cheaper.

Project Lazarus is pretty far down my list of research priorities. There's so many other technologies I'd rather her (or Mordin) focus on.
With regards to Brian, if you can find some in-character reason for Revy to ask for his body or brain to be put on ice until we get Lazarus tech in a year or three, go for it.

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Think the line is worth doing since the research line does improve the quality of life for many people along with saving countless lives that would have been lost in the war. Would also like to have the project done in the case of Shepard's death to drastically improve the odds of Shepard being resurrected. Because I'd really rather not rely on say Cerberus to try to rez us.

 

[Zealous Specter]

Simple, just make the tech available for everyone out there like we have been doing with our other medical tech.

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That doesn't solve the scale problem, all that's doing is making part of it somebody else's problem. Like I'm not sure you grasp the amount of bodies that would need to be stored for long term from the backlog. And that's just if we limit it to humanity alone, which we definitely wouldn't do.

This type of endeavor could potentially require multiple resurrections worlds, and fleets of ships dedicated solely to transporting cryo-preserved bodies to them and living ones back. It's not really something that can be realistically solved by just having dedicated professionals(or automated if we could figure that out) and material in every hospital, or shifting responsibility to some other companies. At it's worse, within mere days they would be overflowing with corpse's.

Not to mention opens it up to a high potential of it being abused by... shall we say less morally responsible people and organizations.

We've made no progress on this part of the tech tree so its a full

5600 research points away, you'd need UberJJK or someone who knows where all the planning spread sheets are to give you an actual timeline.
Given that in order to contest the fact that its going to be extremely expensive to be widely deployed they seem to have retreated to the idea that we can do further research to reduce the cost of the process its going to be more to acheive that. however theres no precedent so far for repeating research so we can't say how much it will increase, it could increase in cost it could be a smaller amount than the original tech.

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Sorry I misspoke. I didn't mean project research time, I meant the projects procedure time. Like would it take a couple hours, days, weeks or will it take months to regenerate a body and install all the augments and repairs needed for a body. Cause if even now one person dies a second, then a population 100 years into the future and a galaxy filled with even more species. It's easy to see it getting out of control.

So we would need to put a restriction on who it can be used on. Like for example children and specifically noteworthy people.

 

[lbmaian]

Think the line is worth doing since the research line does improve the quality of life for many people along with saving countless lives that would have been lost in the war. Would also like to have the project done in the case of Shepard's death to drastically improve the odds of Shepard being resurrected. Because I'd really rather not rely on say Cerberus to try to rez us.

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Any tech that we research is useful. The question is how useful compared to other techs, opportunity cost and all that. For ex, on the biological/medical side of things, I'd rather PI research Drell cure, Quarian cure, and peak Asari before Lazarus. Advanced prosthetics too, but that's a prereq for Lazarus anyway. And there's non-medical tech I'd like Revy to focus on too, like total internal reflection, thermal compensators, even unobtanium.