You know, it was a Hermetic who claimed that thaumium is even better than true primium. Take that with a ice cube sized chunk of salt in your drink.
Actually, I think that in this case it might be no more than half-a-teaspoon of salt. Remember that an Etherite, who didn't exactly seem to hold a high opinion about Hermetics otherwise, commented that what the Hermetic said about Thaumium was basically right.

But anyway, I think I might now try writing something about our current situation and vote instead of drooling about hypothetical shinies.

Hmmm. You know, I wasn't actively participating (or maybe even reading) this quest on any of the trainwrecks where the enemy was goaded to angrier and angrier states with the goal to lead them to making more mistakes. I feel I should seek to remedy this, and suggest to do this by trying to analyze who the pilot is (Sanjeet, unless the deck has been shuffeled against meta) and what their potential mental weakpoints are ("We have Ayanami, I mean Ling, come get her if you dare!"), then exploit them to make the pilot go berserk and hopefully demolish their own base and allies.

I mean, what could go wrong with this approach? (Hint, its everything. For the love of Neon Genesis Evangelion, don't even think about doing something like this seriously. Also, heavy Conditioning might make it unworkable from this angle from the start.)
 
"Ah yes, RNEs. According to Reality Deviant doctrine, they're the 'souls' of deceased people. We have dismissed those claims."
The thing is, the Union knows they only appear when people have died...and honestly, I think Henriette, like the rest of the amalgam, is more accepting of things maybe not being what the Union party line says they are than most. Henriette lost much of what she understood during the Apotheosis, but I think she chose to accept what the "RNE"s said as true.
 
Remember that an Etherite, who didn't exactly seem to hold a high opinion about Hermetics otherwise, commented that what the Hermetic said about Thaumium was basically right.

"Even if he happens to be right about how great thaumium is."

This is slightly different from backing up Thig4Life's claim that Thaumium is even better than True Primium.

Henriette's reaction when she analyzed the Sword of Mars is "this primium alloy is disgusting how the hell did RDs make this 500 years ago", not "oh my god it's better than True Primium and that idiot vampire just had it sitting in his vault."

She also thinks that Mari could make something like thaumium, and Mari has Matter 5 Prime 4. This isn't conclusive evidence, but it does suggest you don't need Prime 5 for thaumium.
 
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The thing is, the Union knows they only appear when people have died...and honestly, I think Henriette, like the rest of the amalgam, is more accepting of things maybe not being what the Union party line says they are than most. Henriette lost much of what she understood during the Apotheosis, but I think she chose to accept what the "RNE"s said as true.

"RNEs are noetic imprints created as a side-effect of people dying in violent and/or traumatic fashion."

You're falling for the same trap as referring to Alicia as an Avatar. If you subscribe to the Technocratic position that people don't have souls, then killing an RNE is just destroying a noetic echo of them and shouldn't actually interfere with the resurrection process. Granted, sometimes you get more degradation of the storage material, causing unfortunate personality changes.

Remember that the Technodigm is no less true than the Traditionalist paradigm.
 
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"Even if he's right about Thaumium being amazing."

This is slightly different from backing up Thig4Life's claim that Thaumium is even better than True Primium.

Henriette's reaction when she analyzed the Sword of Mars is "this primium alloy is disgustingly how the hell did RDs make this 500 years ago", not "oh my god it's better than True Primium and that idiot vampire just had it sitting in his vault."
Oh, good point. I had somehow missed the part where it was descriped as "primium doped with mercury". Just thought it was a True Primium blade.

And now back to thinking about ways to handle a Godzilla-expy piloted by Shinji-expy, this time more seriously from my part. On "David and Goliath", I think this might actually be the worst option available. We've already seen the dracoid get rapidly stronger over time. And while "Overwhelming Firepower" might bring it down if the alpha-strike has enough power and happens fast enough, the cautious approach presented in David and Goliath seems to be all about slowly trying to whitle the beast's defenses down while looking for the opportunity for the killing blow(s). Unfortunately, this might allow it just grow so strong and though that we can no longer contest its power, without even more ridiculous amount of firepower, bringing us back to the starting situation except worse.

Or we could try luring it out of the Construct to somewhere where it would (hopefully) become very soon a puddle of cancer-cells, though we risk more collateral damage and Masses -witnesses if it doesn't immediately pop like a giant flesh-balloon. And, well, Godzilla in Japan? That sound something that might last the hammer of Paradox a little too long for our comfort.
 
Less good: Henriette is pretty definitely out of the fight at this point. Maybe there will be something that we'll need her to remote-pilot, but even then, I don't know if she's up to it. And she'll need some extensive healing.

Eh, better a short fight we win damaged than a long one where we stay intact thanks to clever Procedures, at least in this situation. Henriette was suppressing her Paradox until the fight ended, but she was still racking it up, possibly quite quickly. I'm glad and a bit surprised we got out of this with health level damage and some relatively minor "systems offline while rebooting" paradox flaws, rather than something like a Paradox Spirit, a fall into marauderdom, crippling long-term flaws, or straight up death.
 
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Then how does gigul work in the technodigim? When a mage giguls a technocrat does it retroactively blow up there backups or something?

Gilgul destroys the mind of the person and their avatar.

That notably does not prevent you from resurrecting something very similar to that person. If you gilguled a mage, and then tried to resurrect them, it would be much harder, sure. You would have significantly more failures. But you could get someone similar to that mage. Like, every single EXEMPLAR is in effect a resurrection of an ancient heroic figure. The chances that Achilles's original avatar was floating around when Piero was made is... pretty low.

The entire point of gilgul is to remove corrupted avatars from circulation, making resurrection more difficult is a side effect.
 
I'm inclined towards some variety of 'dragons are big' plan that involves pinning the thing to the ground with I beams and collapsing the hangar on it.
 
I'm inclined towards some variety of 'dragons are big' plan that involves pinning the thing to the ground with I beams and collapsing the hangar on it.

I did consider that, but then I remembered that a characteristic of hangar roofs is that they tend to be pretty thin and light for their size, because they're very large roofs with minimal column supports. Obviously we're not really bound by real world engineering constraints, but I wouldn't feel confident unless we could drop a mountain of rock on the Gojira, and even that may not be enough to stop it.

Not to mention all the problems with the fact that we'd have with our own forces still inside.
 
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I did consider that, but then I remembered that a characteristic of hangar roofs is that they tend to be pretty thin and light for their size, because they're very large roofs with minimal column supports. Obviously we're not really bound by real world engineering constraints, but I wouldn't feel confident unless we could drop a mountain of rock on the Gojira, and even that may not be enough to stop it.

Not to mention all the problems with the fact that we'd have with our own forces still inside.

Well it's an underground hangar, so you can drop a mountain of rock on it.
 
What happens when you Marauder but your paradigm is the dominant one, by the way? Wouldn't you see the world, well, as usual?

You can't. Marauders are an expression of excess Dynamism, so they're not going to conform to reality-as-everyone-else-agrees.

Even if Jams went Marauder, her world would probably turn into a full on 24-7 spy movie, where literally everyone is a double agent working for at least three different people and every time you go to the shops you're doing a handover of a dead drop, every loaf of bread has a gun hidden in it, and people only talk to one another in meaningful statements and recognition codes.

"Hello. I would like a Bacon Cheeseburger with Pickles."

"I understand. The Golden Arches are on the Box. I repeat, the Golden Arches are on the Box."

"How much will it be for the handover?"

"It will be $10.07. Or at least that's what I'd say if," *draws gun* "I wasn't taking you down!"

*turns into gunfight. In the next queue, someone opens up their burger box to find a high tech gadget and nods, walking out as three car chases start on the street outside*
 
You can't. Marauders are an expression of excess Dynamism, so they're not going to conform to reality-as-everyone-else-agrees.

By definition, a Marauder is in Quiet, which means they are enforcing a reality different from consensus on the world around them, in a bubble. A 'Marauder' who is seeing the world as everyone else sees it? The Traditions have a word for that. It's "Sleeper."
 
You can't. Marauders are an expression of excess Dynamism, so they're not going to conform to reality-as-everyone-else-agrees.

Even if Jams went Marauder, her world would probably turn into a full on 24-7 spy movie, where literally everyone is a double agent working for at least three different people and every time you go to the shops you're doing a handover of a dead drop, every loaf of bread has a gun hidden in it, and people only talk to one another in meaningful statements and recognition codes.

"Hello. I would like a Bacon Cheeseburger with Pickles."

"I understand. The Golden Arches are on the Box. I repeat, the Golden Arches are on the Box."

"How much will it be for the handover?"

"It will be $10.07. Or at least that's what I'd say if," *draws gun* "I wasn't taking you down!"

*turns into gunfight. In the next queue, someone opens up their burger box to find a high tech gadget and nods, walking out as three car chases start on the street outside*

Oh man Kessler's Marauderdom would be full 80s action movie, wouldn't it?

*string of car explosions, followed by a crashing helicopter*
 
[X] Overwhelming Firepower

We picked the hangar, because we could amass more troops this way and concentrate firepower. It would be crazy to not use the advantage. The dragon adapts and regenerates, but those two can't be infinitely flexible. I kind of bet that forcing it to adapt and heal with too many things at once would cause it problems.. (" The first few blows are slow, but it increases in speed with every attack, muscles reconfiguring painfully, bulging in odd places and skin tearing before it regrows around gray-blue tissue.. let see if the dragon could do it while the odd places and tear skin and exposed muscles are under heavy fire.).

Third, we kind of need to move quickly before they re-group.
 
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By definition, a Marauder is in Quiet, which means they are enforcing a reality different from consensus on the world around them, in a bubble. A 'Marauder' who is seeing the world as everyone else sees it? The Traditions have a word for that. It's "Sleeper."

Are you calling normal people insane? :p

A Mage does have more reality-bending influence than your average Sleeper, so I don't think it's very implausible for there to be, say, a Sleeper that enforces Paradox much more quickly and/or strongly than normal. I don't know if it goes against setting rules to somehow turn a Mage into a Sleeper, though.
 
Isn't that what Gigul does? You destroy the Avatar/Genius and thus they can no longer practice magic/enlightened science. (Though usually Gigul is a death sentence, usually done to get rid of things like the inverted avatars of the Nephandi. I don't think you can be a Sleeper and Awakened.
 
Are you calling normal people insane? :p

A Mage does have more reality-bending influence than your average Sleeper, so I don't think it's very implausible for there to be, say, a Sleeper that enforces Paradox much more quickly and/or strongly than normal. I don't know if it goes against setting rules to somehow turn a Mage into a Sleeper, though.
"Sleepwalker". Like Mari.
 
Gilgul destroys the mind of the person and their avatar.

That notably does not prevent you from resurrecting something very similar to that person. If you gilguled a mage, and then tried to resurrect them, it would be much harder, sure. You would have significantly more failures. But you could get someone similar to that mage. Like, every single EXEMPLAR is in effect a resurrection of an ancient heroic figure. The chances that Achilles's original avatar was floating around when Piero was made is... pretty low.

The entire point of gilgul is to remove corrupted avatars from circulation, making resurrection more difficult is a side effect.

To build on that, the thing is, you can't channel qlipphotic spheres through a non-inverted avatar. So if you resurrected a gilguled Technocrat or Traditionalist with a perfectly fine avatar, you would get someone with... possibly a significant degree of personality change and a damaged capability to do Enlightened Science/cast True Magic, but still quite similar to that person in question. It's quite possible that such a resurrection might lead to someone with severe enough damage that they can't act as a mage anymore, which is unfortunate. Such people tend to either hit the books a lot in the hopes that they get Awakened again via primer (which happens pretty often) or end up retiring, getting any sensitive memories willingly removed (the nice thing about erasure of memory is that it's much easier with a consenting party to do a clean erasure), and ending up in an influential but mundane job which the Technocrats or Traditions need people in.

If you resurrected a gilguled Nephandus, you'd end up with someone who has their very nature rebelling against their existence. It's not going to be Fun Times. It is exceedingly unlikely a gilguled Nephandus who gets resurrected will come back with magical ability, and the entire point of bringing someone back is because mages are rare and hard to acquire. Like, instead of wasting time on a has-been who demonstrably fucked up and got himself captured alive for gilgul purposes, you could find a promising candidate and tutor them in the dark arts instead, which takes much less time and requires fewer spheres. The main reason you might want to risk a resurrection after the person's original avatar is unavailable/their information pattern has degraded sufficiently/etc etc is to bring back an experienced mage who knows what they're doing, and that's harder for Nephandi. Turns out seeking the destruction of all things makes it harder to come back from destruction.

And the term 'braintape' is kind of misleading. In PQ, the Technocracy finds accurately emulating brains hard. The Progenitors and ItX have adopted the idea of the brain as quantum computer to explain why NWO agents and Syndicate personnel can often manage predictive/analytical feats far exceeding even high-end computers with far more on-paper processing power. So a resurrection is generally either done with a much higher-resolution than just a mere copy of someone's memories, whether it's with a preserved corpse or with a very high-resolution map of the user's brain. These stored templates are refreshed every so often at Technocratic facilities, but they start degrading very quickly, and obviously can't be refreshed when someone is dead. Outside of very high-ranking individuals (who almost certainly have a dedicated team and Devices to keep these templates updated every few days or hours, i.e. a Mind/Corr/Prime effect to soul jar them at the moment of death), these templates are highly lossy and fragile (which is why the Technocracy much prefers near-immediate resurrection with the actual corpse around)

Gilgul or Mindwipe would fuck the victim up to the point where you can't use them to verify the template. This means they're using a technique which generally produces beta-levels or gamma-levels and trying to upscale the resolution of the resulting brain template that they get an alpha-level. For a videogame analogy, the Technocrats doing a resurrection on a damaged braintape template are basically looking at screenshots and a handful of videos of the new Wolfenstein games, a copy of the script, and a copy of Wolfenstein 3D, and then trying to recreate Wolfenstein: The New Order more or less exactly.

You can imagine how easy this is going to be.
 
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For a videogame analogy, the Technocrats doing a resurrection on a damaged braintape template are basically looking at screenshots and a handful of videos of the new Wolfenstein games, a copy of the script, and a copy of Wolfenstein 3D, and then trying to recreate Wolfenstein: The New Order more or less exactly.

This is a bad analogy, because doing this would, in all likelihood, make a game better than The New Order :V
 
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