Panopticon: A Game of Posthumans, Perniciousness, Paranoia, Politics, and Plasmaguns
- Location
- Spain
Well, stricly speaking the reformed Abjad isn't a internal police.
It's just a vigilante group.
Donald: "And I'm..."
Roth: "I'M BATMAN!"
Donald: "... fine, I'll be the Riddler, then."
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Panopticon already has that kind of power. Refusing the offer to join the Abjad does not change that, nor does it help push either Panopticon or the Abjad into a position where they have incentive to reform. Having Donald join the Abjad might, might improve things. We differ on whether that's worth gambling on, fair enough.
Would a less powerful secret police be better than Panopticon? Yes. Does saying 'no' help bring that about? I don't see that it does. On the contrary, it makes the Abjad less capable than they might be. Given that the non-Abjad parts of Panopticon still serve Control, I consider this very much a bad thing.
Now does this mean that there can't be (a) better alternative(s), some way to reduce the power of Panopticon without Donald signing up? No. There probably are such ways. But without a concrete, convincing plan for how to say 'no' without weakening the anti-Control forces, it seems to me the worse choice.
As for self-righteousness, that is a problem endemic to humans in general, and the Awakened in particular. I do not find the Abjad more self-righteous than the average Mage/Technocrat shown in this quest. They seem significantly more self-aware than Siddharth or Roth, at least.
- Location
- Austria
I think this is called "damning with faint praise", considering he is supposed to be objective impartial watcher.
Otherwise, you have a point: voting "No" doesn't solve the problem. Voting "Yes" isn't that better, because Donald isn't likely to reform Abjad, even if he is smart and genre savvy enough to understand how stupid and prone to going shitty current Panopticon is.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Pretty much, yeah. But for me at least, reforming Panopticon is more of a nice-to-have bonus, if it happens. A significant enough gain to be worth rolling the dice, metaphorically speaking. Possibly also literally.
The most important thing is to prevent Control from coming back, which I believe will be helped by having Donald join the Abjad.
The most important thing is to prevent Control from coming back, which I believe will be helped by having Donald join the Abjad.
Warning: THE SLEEPER HAS AWAKENED
the sleeper has awakened
Okay okay stop reporting I get it.
Look, MJ12, you decided to write a quest. The whole point of writing a quest - other than the ego boost, of course - is that other people are going to have opinions, they're going to express those opinions, and at least theoretically, those opinions are going to matter.
If you didn't want that to be the case, well, you could just have written a story. This level of salt isn't warranted, either from you or from @EarthScorpion.
Slap on the wrist, bad Xon, you've failed Oppression 101, you're supposed to carry them off in the dead of night not roll up to their front door in broad daylight in a tank and go "SEND OUT THE DISSIDENTS PLEASE".
No, Xon is not going to change people's votes, yes, he shouldn't have gone on about it, let's move on.
- Location
- Austria
Yes, but it tells certain things about Donald. I am not sure I want him to grow into person who is willing to go with so shitty bullshit as Panopticon - which deserves to be more or less remade from scratch because of issues discussed earlier which boil down to "memetic Inquistion doesn't work unless your only purpose is to increase grimderp of organisation" - for a very vague and far-in-future chance of changing something.
"Sykes joins Panopticon to cure it from inside" is like Syndicate!Donald seeing corrupted SPD and instead of uncovering them joining them because "idea itself had merit and he wants to cure it from inside". It miiight have worked out, but just exposing this shit, remaking all that is wrong and moving on, IMO, makes more sense.
Now, to be fair, Abjad is not Pentex collaborator so Panopticon is probably better off, but parallel is still there.
Then you pile on the fact that he betrays all his friends (who are doing more for Union's health atm) in order to join Panopticon and it becomes even less sensible.
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[X] Yes - but not unconditionally.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
[X] No
I honestly don't see why IC Donald would trust Panopticon at all. Donald literally has no idea if what they tell is truth or not and while they probably are not controls dogs since they haven't mindrape him but it doesn't means Panopticon won't decide to kill Main party for being inconvient after dust settles. And even if they won't Donald doesn't know this
More to point I don't want Panopticon roll in and take credit for all of our efforts which can happen much more easly if they have Donald. And that would be bad since it would make Panopticon untouchable in the aftermath.
No if Technocracy is to be stronger it must do this itself.
Also if Panopticon were to closed down it doesn't means all instutional information will dissapear (contrary to what @EarthScorpion said). Main party after all is reaching to leadership positions already. When Panopticon is rebuilding Jamelia will remember Vigilance and all the lessons she learned from it so let panopticon be gone. Nothing value will be lost with them. Once they are gone they could be rebuild with the lesson learned from all of this. But if you leave it as it is they will simply change as little as possible and keep going. Considering it is build on wrong foundation that is a dangerious thing.
Donald should I think appeal to Abjad to destroy Panapticon and rebuild it on the stronger foundation with the lessons learned from all of this written into its founding charter.
You don't reform 3rd Reich after all, you reform Germany. IT is important distinction.
I honestly don't see why IC Donald would trust Panopticon at all. Donald literally has no idea if what they tell is truth or not and while they probably are not controls dogs since they haven't mindrape him but it doesn't means Panopticon won't decide to kill Main party for being inconvient after dust settles. And even if they won't Donald doesn't know this
More to point I don't want Panopticon roll in and take credit for all of our efforts which can happen much more easly if they have Donald. And that would be bad since it would make Panopticon untouchable in the aftermath.
No if Technocracy is to be stronger it must do this itself.
Also if Panopticon were to closed down it doesn't means all instutional information will dissapear (contrary to what @EarthScorpion said). Main party after all is reaching to leadership positions already. When Panopticon is rebuilding Jamelia will remember Vigilance and all the lessons she learned from it so let panopticon be gone. Nothing value will be lost with them. Once they are gone they could be rebuild with the lesson learned from all of this. But if you leave it as it is they will simply change as little as possible and keep going. Considering it is build on wrong foundation that is a dangerious thing.
Donald should I think appeal to Abjad to destroy Panapticon and rebuild it on the stronger foundation with the lessons learned from all of this written into its founding charter.
You don't reform 3rd Reich after all, you reform Germany. IT is important distinction.
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Hm... Frankly, I've never voted in this quest before. Never really felt strongly enough to.
This time, though...
Well, I'm just not convinced by the "it's in character". I'd rather vote for character development, for something to change. To break the system, to crowbar in a phrase.
I don't have the time to write out a very long post, but I'll vote for what I'd like to see.
[X] No
This time, though...
Well, I'm just not convinced by the "it's in character". I'd rather vote for character development, for something to change. To break the system, to crowbar in a phrase.
I don't have the time to write out a very long post, but I'll vote for what I'd like to see.
[X] No
If someone actually did a write-in for that 'Donald says "no you help us"' thing MJ commented on, I think I'd rather vote for that than for either Yes or No. As it is, though, I'm not nearly aware enough of the fiddly workings of the Quest to justify a No vote, and I just don't particularly want to vote Yes
pt246
Sometimes sarcastic, occasionally grumpy
[X] Yes - but not unconditionally.
... Look, Donald isn't exactly a great technocrat. He's unorthodox at the best of times and falls back on old habits quickly when he needs them. And he knows this. The Abjad is a good fit for him, so long as they stick to what he cares about these days, which is basically what he's asking of them: Watch for things that are out of line and take action. Not to police the thoughts to the Technocracy but to take action when a line is crossed and things begin to happen that are against the principles of the Technocracy. If the Abjad agrees to that, if he can hold them to that, then I think it's very much in character for him to join them.
... Look, Donald isn't exactly a great technocrat. He's unorthodox at the best of times and falls back on old habits quickly when he needs them. And he knows this. The Abjad is a good fit for him, so long as they stick to what he cares about these days, which is basically what he's asking of them: Watch for things that are out of line and take action. Not to police the thoughts to the Technocracy but to take action when a line is crossed and things begin to happen that are against the principles of the Technocracy. If the Abjad agrees to that, if he can hold them to that, then I think it's very much in character for him to join them.
- Location
- Austria
Multiple problmes which were already discussed:
1. Why Abjad is good fit for him? Please explain, I don't understand. I don't get why putting two people with same mental biases in same room with no sane person to balance it out is good idea. And then to go on and give them no-oversight unlimited power? I just don't get why it is considered good idea at all.
2. The exact problem with this setup is that without separating "watching" and "taking action" parts you have risk of kinda-sorta-unofficial usurpation sooner or later.
That's what at least some of the "No" voters are concerned by: it would be better (and still feasible) to only limit Panopticon to watching and leave action to, for example, giving new!Panopticon first dibs on calling cavalry from other Conventions[1]. But Abjad with his belief that he knows how and where to steer TU will never agree to limiting his personal power^W ability to help the TU[2].
3. Those are extremely big ifs. And on them both coming true hinges the whole point of "Yes" vote...or doesn't it? I am not sure what do "Yes" people expect if Aleph refuses in some way or doesn't keep his word (trusting shadowy internal police guy when he needs more tools and thus is willing to talk shit and has enough Mind to convincingly lie? Nope).
[1] Basically what protagonists' construct have been doing all this time, only official and with first dibs. Nothing too outstanding and there is proof-of-concept going around opposing Threat Null, so idea is not out of nowhere or not tested.
[2] Regardless of intentions, belief that he knows better than every single memeber of Union what is and isn't properly Unionistic is so arrogant he should be poster boy for Mage hubris. He's like walking Dunning-Kruger effect personification with 40K-Inquisitorial permissions.
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Are you seriously still confused on Abjad != Panopticon even after the super long discussion of it?
The whole point of the Abjad is that they aren't known by the technocracy. They can't take credit for jack because being in any way public defeats their point.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
@Imrix is working on one I believe.
You are not making any sense. Have you simply ignored all the discussion?
Firstly, the leading vote opinion of "Yes" voters is "Yes - but only if you make sure there's no replacement for Panopticon". Donald has laid down the line - he refuses to join Panopticon. What he's willing to do is to join the Adjad on the condition that they're going to dismantle Panopticon and go back to being designated heretics who look outside the Union's paradigm and Dual-Tradition. He's willing to do that.
Secondly, there is no way the Abjad are taking credit for this. It goes against their ethos entirely. You know who probably is going to get handed the credit for this? Serafina. She's an already-existing Hero of the Technocracy who's also a Progenitor and is working on the ground in Tokyo to unite the Progenitors to make sure the rebels don't have anyone on their side, and she's also made a deal with Professor Li that in return for her support in some of his goals, he's going to enforce.
Thirdly, In Character... hello? Donald is a desperate man. Donald has just spent the last month running around finding out that Gregor Leon is planning to summon Control. Donald spent months before that trapped in the Demise with an avatar of the machine god trying to kill him. Donald just called in the Void Engineers because he doesn't think Damage Control know what they're walking into and he thinks it's that vital that Control are stopped. A few hours ago in character Donald gambled his life trying to flip Yinzheng.
People who say Donald isn't prepared to take risks to make sure Control are stopped are, bluntly, ignoring the evidence. Yes, he will work with the Abjad if it'll stop Control. He'll sure as hell work with them if it means tearing apart Panopticon, who are Control's major remaining Earthside asset. If you claim Donald has no reason to work with them, you're ignoring the events of the past arc.
Fourthly, "it doesn't means Panopticon won't decide to kill Main party for being inconvient after dust settles". Uh. Hello. Saying "No" doesn't change that at all, even if it wasn't just paranoid. And it is paranoid. If you were afraid of people who "decide to kill Main party for being inconvient after dust settles", why the fuck would Serafina have made a deal with Professor Li and why the fuck would the party be working with NWO higher ups. Go on, how exactly would the party be inconvenient? On the contrary, Serafina came to an arrangement with them and she's doing what they want, being the bright idealist they need.
And fifthly, as @Cavalier said, the Abjad serve a vital role as official heretics. May I remind you, the Technocratic Union is a sinister culturally hegonomistic global conspiracy. If you don't think "people who stand outside the paradigmic groupthink and who can point out when things are going wrong, but who aren't in charge and making the decisions" isn't a vital role, you appear to have brought into the Technocracy's story that it's the unadulterated good guys.
I mean, sheesh. "More to point I don't want Panopticon roll in and take credit for all of our efforts which can happen much more easly if they have Donald. And that would be bad since it would make Panopticon untouchable in the aftermath." That? That's just unreasoning player paranoia combined with player ego. That is not going to happen, and unless you're going to provide any proof you're just making assertions.
- Location
- Austria
At least some of "No" voters are very much pro-such group, but don't think Aleph is willing to reform it into something actually worthwhile.
More to the crucial point,
If you give them authority to judge right from wrong and ability to act on it and no supervision, they are going to eventually wind up in charge and making decisions, that's main problem with such group. And taking away their ability to independently act won't be ever accepted by general "I know what's better for TU" Aleph.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
No. You will see my older post if you look back.
I simply have no faith in Abjad. They will not make a through enough a job. IT will still Panapticon in the end complete with death squads. They will simply hide their death squads better.
Donald still has option to go to VE. He is not that deperate.
VE is much better option than Panapticon IC. Only reason we consider Abjads wannabe Panapticon is what we know OOC that Donald does not.
I imagine party is going to want Panapticon either taken down or overseen in the aftermath. You think Panapticon is going to take that laying down?
And what has Prof. Li has to with anything?
Panopticon is only offical in the sense Control created it. At the moment there is nothing offical about it. Only a history of bloodshed and killing actually loyal TU personal for being inconvient. If there is a need for offical heretics let Comand start anew.
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I'm withholding my vote until someone comes up with a "Come to the protagonist side; join us and we will rule the Union together!" write-in, I think. Or barring that, until I have time to write one myself.
Give us a few more days, @MJ12 Commando? Seems like we could use some time to cool off anyway.
Give us a few more days, @MJ12 Commando? Seems like we could use some time to cool off anyway.
Then if he's not willing, the "but" clause of "Yes, but..." kicks in.
Like, that's why I said earlier "I'm totally down with Aleph refusing Donald's demands". If he doesn't want to do that, then he can go wipe Donald and Donald can go "Fine, then, I'm going over to the Void Engineers and getting those motherfuckers someone on side who actually knows PR and how to make deals".
Donald has his line in the sand. If the Abjad won't meet him, then they won't meet him.
... are you literally ignoring the entire conversation? I think you have to be, given that Donald's demand is "No more Panopticon". Hell, in the update, Shin was all like "Bro, we can't trust most of Panopticon, we need to purge vast amounts of it".
Moreover, are you still conflating Panopticon and the Adjad?
... I don't... I...
Of course Panopticon is official. It's a Convention, it's on Command, that's why it's a problem! If it was just an oversized amalgam, we wouldn't be in this whole fucking mess because it would be small enough that it could be crushed by a task force!
You know who else was created by Control? The New World Order! If "created by Control" makes a Convention invalid, then the New World Order isn't official either! And the New World Order has as a major part of its jurisdiction monitoring and running the Technocracy!
But once again, Donald is arguing that Panopticon can't go on and shouldn't be refounded and that the Abjad need to take themselves back to their original goal! And Command can't set up heretics, because there's a grand total of one Enlightenment 6+ person on Command and that's Aleph, so he's the only one who can understand why it's necessary!
The Technocracy is a secret conspiracy that cannot let the Consensual nature of reality be known - and mostly doesn't know it itself. Heretics are needed to warn people from half inside and half outside, but the Technocracy as a whole cannot and will not understand it. And Command cannot set up a replacement group, because:
- Command doesn't have the mental tools to actually understand why it's needed, because they're not Enlightenment 6+
- Control having too much control over the Abjad is why we are in the problem we are right now, because they wound up wearing two hats.
This is part of being a secret conspiracy. You need a group like the Abjad to watch the Technocracy's paradigm to make sure the paradigm is being run for the good of mankind, rather than the good of the paradigm itself.
pt246
Sometimes sarcastic, occasionally grumpy
1. The Abjad is a good fit for him because he cares about the Union and it's goals. They do as well[1]. More to the point, Donald isn't paradigmatically locked into viewing the world as a binary between 'Technocratic Science' and 'Supersitionist Bullshit/Reality Deviancy,' and being able to escape from that binary is a critical part of the Abjad. It doesn't need to be a full on Enlightenment 6 view of it ultimately being the same, but to be willing to do what they do, they have to be more flexible than someone who's locked into the viewpoint of a convention or conventions.
You've argue that putting two people with the same mental biases in the same room without someone sane to balance them out is a a problem. There's some truth to that, if we're dealing with that hypothetical room in isolation. But we're not. The context is of the Union as a whole, not just the Abjad. "Loyal Opposition" is a term that's been thrown around a bunch to describe them, and I think it's fairly accurate. They have their viewpoint, which is influenced by their paradigmatic flexibility, and thus is different from the normal viewpoint of the Union. It's not a group of likeminded people in a room having and ideological circle jerk. It's a room of people in a house who share the same overall goals and loyalties (that of the greater Technocratic Union) who are looking at the problem from a different direction, and also looking at how everyone else is going about trying to solve the problem.
Then there's the issue of unlimited power and no supervision. I'm not entirely sure if you're conflating them or treating them separately, but just to make my position clear: No Supervision =/= Unlimited Power. Nor does one arise from the other. Going by ES's write-in, which is what I voted for, Donald is explicitly demanding they give up the 'unlimited' power Panopticon currently enjoys. They become a small group with no oversight and sharply limited power. They are, by their nature, secret. A conspiracy within a conspiracy, if you will. They cannot openly exercise power. They will have to influence events in other ways. Again, this is what Donald is demanding they become. If they don't comply, he walks. That's his whole point.
I'll get to the bit about no oversight shortly.
2. I think you're missing the point here. That's partially my fault; I didn't articulate my thoughts on the matter particularly clearly. It mostly goes back to what Donald's demanding though: The separation of the Abjad from Panopticon and the destruction of the latter as a force. Watching is not being separated from taking action, but the methods of taking action are being curtailed dramatically. The goal is that taking action becomes something that the Abjad can't and won't do overtly. If major action needs to be taken, they prod and pull and hint and let the Union sweep up the problem with conventional assets.
Honestly, on this point, you and I are actually arguing slightly different points, based on our interpretation of what Donald is demanding.
3. This might be the messiest issue. You're right. These are huge ifs. Personally, based on OOC knowledge such as how he interacted with Serafina, I think Aleph is on the level right now, and so is the offer. In character, Donald has to make a snap judgement: To take them on faith, or to think they're blowing smoke up his ass. My vote for "yes - but not unconditionally" is, amongst other things, a vote to take them on faith if they accede to his demands. Which leads into that whole no oversite deal. It's true that the Abjad has no effective supervision besides Aleph himself, and he's declaring himself the arbiter of what is and not the technocratic way of doing things. But when it comes down to it, he's simply trying to do his best by the Union. He may fuck up. He may be succeeded by people who fuck up. The purpose of the Abjad may be perverted again. Those are unavoidable chances, essentially consequences of time. But as long as he's honestly trying, and thus keeps the Abjad in line, I think it's worth trusting him.
So now we're at the last part of your point: What happens if Aleph says no? Quite probably, we're fucked. That's what makes this decision so problematic. We have no guarantees. We've laid it all on the line; gone all in. However you want to describe it. We can come up with plausible scenarios for what happens next (The Abjad lets us walk unmolested, they mind-rape Donald into working for them[2], they say yes but they're lying, ect, ect... ) and war game them out to our heart's content, but it doesn't do us much good. The whole point of this vote is that it's a gamble. It's a gamble that's in character for Donald to make, because when thing really matter, he's willing to make this sort of choice. And it's a gamble I'm happy to make as (part-time) participant of this quest, because, as I've said, I think Aleph is being honest, I think that the Abjad will take Donald's offer, and I think it offers us (the players) the best possible way out of the situation that's been presented to us.
[1]Ok, so we're taking the argument that they want what's best for the Union on faith. I'm doing a lot of that throughout my argument.
[2]This option seems kinda unlikely. They weren't willing to force Serafina to work for them and I don't think they'll do it to Donald either. Having unwilling or conditioned members in their ranks defeats the purpose of the Abjad.
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- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Wait are we arguing that things created by Control are bad?
I would argue that this makes all of the Conventions objectively bad and that we should join the Rogue Council.
I would argue that this makes all of the Conventions objectively bad and that we should join the Rogue Council.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Here is a question to you how is it better to go to Adjad? You said yourself Adjat is not Panopticon. He won't have the resources to bring to coming Control-Examplar fight. VE in comparation can bring a lot.
Why choose the side that is totally irrevelant to crisis at hand? Without Donald around to steer them VE can do a lot of damage to their own side.