Alright, well, I and the other people who were tricked into voting for the permadox reduction fucked up. I guess we just don't have the GM's friendship spark of Genius required to change the setting with cool ideas. :(

There's generally only one way you can really fuck up in this quest-and that's if you choose something based on what you think is going on rather than what's actually going on.

"I choose this because I want Kessler to have less paradox so we can later install a TYPHOON EXPLOSIVE PROJECTOR/TWIN ARM-MOUNTED PLASMA GUNS/SWEET LASER EYES on him" would have been a totally valid reason. Or just "I want less paradox." I posted in response because people were choosing things for the fluff and assuming that was the benefit, and let it stand because it's not a game over (despite my maniacal cackling) and because sometimes it's good to have a reminder that you can screw up.

You can end up getting something akin to the benefits of Legendary Stamina or Strength or the like via upgrades, it's just a somewhat more convoluted path.
 
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Well, water under the bridge and all that.

The new question would be:

New bling? Or less backlash/more magic?

Also, how's Henriette going to beat the vampire/god/planetoid/machine that was once half (a third?) of her soul, but that can wait. :V
 
There's generally only one way you can really fuck up in this quest-and that's if you choose something based on what you think is going on rather than what's actually going on.
Yes, well, if you enjoy punishing us for our lack of telepathy, there's not much we can do about it if we otherwise enjoy the quest.
 
Has the vote actually been called somewhere? because if not I guess I'll switch to

[x] The Dragon(Slayer)'s Might: He who slays the dragon demonstrates his superiority over the dragon in might. Gain a Legendary Physical attribute of your choice and +1 to one other physical attribute. Had this been gained from eating of the dragon's heart, it would have echoed the first two (+3 to all attributes, Legendary Physical).
-> Legendary Stamina
-> +1 Strength
 
Pretty sure the vote has been called.

And again, fair enough lesson learned. Better to have learned this in a situation like the current one where the wrong reasoning still got us something useful than to have it happen during something crucial.

Now, how to best leverage the new low Dox? Maybe some combination of heavier cybernetics with Spirit Shenanigans? Yes, that seems appropriate.
 
I think it's more punishing us for pretending we have telepathy.
I did no such thing, and I would guess that most of the others who made the same mistake as I did didn't either. I just bought into the fluff because this game gives off the impression that flavor means more than that.
 
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Is Jamelia just going to go through every step of an accelerated timeline of hers? Because with the way things have been going, I can't help but imagine her hitting early to mid 1980s-Jamelia by the time they escape Hollywood and get back to the spaceships and meet Harlan.

It would seem to play into thte irony that for someone who pulled off one of the greatest acts of censorship on Threat Null, her own background is being spread around the amalgam (by herself even). At this point, the only real secrets she still has are Vigilance, Elissa, and her own mind-reconfiguration in mid 1980s (that and she knows the true nature of TN but Kessler already knows that so someone in the amalgam knows that secret too).
 
Between the fact that oMage is extremely heavy on fluff-influences-mechanics through the medium of paradigms and whatnot, and the illusion of transparency meaning that yes, actually, any attempt at judging what's "actually happening" versus "what we think is happening" is a Mind 2 Metagaming 2 attempt at telepathy...

Yeah, I'm kind of annoyed.
 
Honestly? I don't care. I voted for what I wanted, I made an argument based on that- but I also presented the other choices in the best context I could and made specific mention that they were all equally strong choices, albeit with some possible traps. I told people I didn't want to vote for the shiniest shiny, and that the less shiny votes may still have effects that aren't represented strictly by game mechanics.

I accept full blame for reading the part about the idea that people like Kessler could exist long after Kessler has died as meaning exactly that, because it leaves a long term effect on consensus that I theorized could be like blatancy. But even without that, the idea that Hermetics who love dragons are weeping in their beds because John Kessler killed the eldest of the great wyrms is just too funny- and also because it sends a message to dragons everywhere that you do not fuck with John Kessler. He is now literally the bogeyman of Dragonkind.

ES is correct in that you might consider that a 'fame' option, but I disagree that it isn't a warranted one. The real 'fame' option would be to bring the heart back to the technocracy. Say 'here's proof that I did it'- now he can tell them, and because of him becoming a Mythic Thread, that means that they might well believe him- but all he's getting out of it is a permanent paradox reduction. He's not getting extra strength, he's not getting the ability to shrug off tank rounds.

And I accept that. I think that it was a meaningful choice to make, even if the result is mostly just fluff. Because ultimately I'm participating in this quest for the story. A good portion of that is Kessler's story, but I was completely zen about the possibility that he would die. That he's lived and become myth... that's above and beyond what I expected.

Regardless of what happens, I'm glad a some people voted for fluff even if that fluff isn't mechanically represented, or even mechanically meaningful, because I truly feel that the impact of that vote on the game universe enhances the story. Does that mean I'm attributing more to it than there is? That should be obvious. I believe in him. Even if there is no God or Buddha, there's John Kessler, stabbing the dragons who would threaten humanity in the face, forever.

I can't think of a better conclusion to his character arc than that.



Also, this theoretically means that that Kessler will be a valid candidate for any successors to the Exemplar project. Just let that sink in. They'll decant the clones to find they've all got mullets despite being grown without active follicles.
 
Honestly? I don't care. I voted for what I wanted, I made an argument based on that- but I also presented the other choices in the best context I could and made specific mention that they were all equally strong choices, albeit with some possible traps. I told people I didn't want to vote for the shiniest shiny, and that the less shiny votes may still have effects that aren't represented strictly by game mechanics.

I accept full blame for reading the part about the idea that people like Kessler could exist long after Kessler has died as meaning exactly that, because it leaves a long term effect on consensus that I theorized could be like blatancy. But even without that, the idea that Hermetics who love dragons are weeping in their beds because John Kessler killed the eldest of the great wyrms is just too funny- and also because it sends a message to dragons everywhere that you do not fuck with John Kessler. He is now literally the bogeyman of Dragonkind.

ES is correct in that you might consider that a 'fame' option, but I disagree that it isn't a warranted one. The real 'fame' option would be to bring the heart back to the technocracy. Say 'here's proof that I did it'- now he can tell them, and because of him becoming a Mythic Thread, that means that they might well believe him- but all he's getting out of it is a permanent paradox reduction. He's not getting extra strength, he's not getting the ability to shrug off tank rounds.

And I accept that. I think that it was a meaningful choice to make, even if the result is mostly just fluff. Because ultimately I'm participating in this quest for the story. A good portion of that is Kessler's story, but I was completely zen about the possibility that he would die. That he's lived and become myth... that's above and beyond what I expected.

Regardless of what happens, I'm glad a some people voted for fluff even if that fluff isn't mechanically represented, or even mechanically meaningful, because I truly feel that the impact of that vote on the game universe enhances the story. Does that mean I'm attributing more to it than there is? That should be obvious. I believe in him. Even if there is no God or Buddha, there's John Kessler, stabbing the dragons who would threaten humanity in the face, forever.

I can't think of a better conclusion to his character arc than that.



Also, this theoretically means that that Kessler will be a valid candidate for any successors to the Exemplar project. Just let that sink in. They'll decant the clones to find they've all got mullets despite being grown without active follicles.
Except that MJ said it's not true. It was just something he made up to explain the permadox reduction. Which is sad, because I really liked what I thought it was, and I'd have picked it even if it didn't give anyone mechanical benefits like Blatancy.
 
Between the fact that oMage is extremely heavy on fluff-influences-mechanics through the medium of paradigms and whatnot, and the illusion of transparency meaning that yes, actually, any attempt at judging what's "actually happening" versus "what we think is happening" is a Mind 2 Metagaming 2 attempt at telepathy...

Yeah, I'm kind of annoyed.

I didn't give you a bunch of fluff choices and then tell you to extrapolate the mechanics benefits. I gave you the mechanics benefits, flat-out, in the open, and people decided to vote for one choice because they talked themselves into thinking that it meant +Fame +Legend +Shinies when all it meant is -2 Paradox. If a choice has easily extrapolated mechanical benefits or costs, I try to post those. Fluff influences mechanics, yes, but nobody even tried to ask whether or not the mechanical benefits they imagined in their head were real at any point.

It got to the point where I reverted it back to -3 Paradox just because people were insisting it was a better deal than it actually was and I'm not here to dick people over.
 
I didn't give you a bunch of fluff choices and then tell you to extrapolate the mechanics benefits. I gave you the mechanics benefits, flat-out, in the open, and people decided to vote for one choice because they talked themselves into thinking that it meant +Fame +Legend +Shinies when all it meant is -2 Paradox. If a choice has easily extrapolated mechanical benefits or costs, I try to post those. Fluff influences mechanics, yes, but nobody even tried to ask whether or not the mechanical benefits they imagined in their head were real at any point.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my post covering the stuff. I picked it for the story benefits, and noted all the really cool stuff you could do with the other options. I really don't think I understated how awesome those were. I did encourage people to not just vote based on shinies, but I don't think it came across very well given that it turns out lots of people decided that the not as shiny option meant 'super special unlisted bonus shinies' rather than just fluff. I mean theoretical blatancy was something I posited at, but @ everyone else: I'm not sporting special insider knowledge, so everything is based on my own experience with WoD and my own assumptions. One of those assumptions was that if I say something wildly out of line, someone who knows will correct me. But that really only means like two people, ES and MJ. That's not something I can rely on all the time.

Which is why we've made several attempts to get you guys to avoid vote bandwagoning, and why I only really speak up on the stuff I really feel strongly for.

The whole mythic thread thing got way out of hand in the five hours I was away from the keyboard though.

It went from theorizing that Kessler becoming a mythic thread might mean that someone who embodies his values, or draws on his mythic thread, could get some of that paradox reduction while fighting monstrous enemies who threaten humanity.

Then it went to "When humanity's existence is on the line, those who fight to guard it will get a dox reduction."

And then it made the really unsupported jump of: "Anyone who ever fights anything monstrous will get a dox reduction on everything they do."

I would have loved to actually be here to tell you guys that no, that's not how that works. But I can't be at the computer all the time, and ultimately I was happy with my vote. I would suggest for the future that if you see someone making a claim- even if it's me, try and source that claim before you assume that everything works exactly how you think it works. Don't just 'run to the logical conclusion' that you think is the natural outcome of the game working as advertised when you don't have confirmation.

Sometimes that means quote jumping or otherwise tracing posts back three to five pages to try and figure out where something originated- but I'm telling you its worthwhile to do. All it takes is one person misreading how something works and people just accepting their comments.

Trust, but verify.
 
I didn't give you a bunch of fluff choices and then tell you to extrapolate the mechanics benefits. I gave you the mechanics benefits, flat-out, in the open, and people decided to vote for one choice because they talked themselves into thinking that it meant +Fame +Legend +Shinies when all it meant is -2 Paradox. If a choice has easily extrapolated mechanical benefits or costs, I try to post those. Fluff influences mechanics, yes, but nobody even tried to ask whether or not the mechanical benefits they imagined in their head were real at any point.
When people speak in definitive language in this quest, I generally assume they've been talking to you on IRC, have a private conversation on the board with you, or have some other source of Secret Voodoo Knowledge Not For Us Sleepers. You know, like usual.

And "talked themselves into" implies that each of us deluded ourselves individually, not that the group. People without the writing talent for stunts or the capacity to cast the Mind 2 Metagaming 2 rote to figure out setting information aren't a single homogenous swarm, no matter how much we can act like it in our dumber moments.

It got to the point where I reverted it back to -3 Paradox just because people were insisting it was a better deal than it actually was and I'm not here to dick people over.
*bitter laughter* That would be a lot more believable if you hadn't closed the vote in the exact same post as you informed us that we were mistaken. While laughing in sadistic glee.
 
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It would have been nice if some of this disagreement with what Kerrus had written had been posted sometime before the vote. Even a post of "that seems to be reaching" would have been helpful, especially for the people not too familiar with the setting apart from this quest.
 
When people speak in definitive language in this quest, I generally assume they've been talking to you on IRC, have a private conversation on the board with you, or have some other source of Secret Voodoo Knowledge Not For Us Sleepers. You know, like usual.
Then there's been a valuable lesson learned here about verifying what one trusts. Net gain!
It would have been nice if some of this disagreement with what Kerrus had written had been posted sometime before the vote. Even a post of "that seems to be reaching" would have been helpful, especially for the people not too familiar with the setting apart from this quest.
Alas that ES and Aleph have lives and can't correct people all the time on the internet.
 
Perhaps they wanted us to crash and burn so we wouldn't trust cool ideas from anyone outside their cabal, allowing them to control the direction of the story without interference while maintaining the illusion that their non-MJ members are just players like the rest of us...

*notices tinfoil hat that spontaneously appeared on head* Or not.
 
John Kessler: The Man. The Myth. The Mullet.

With regard to upgrades vs. lower permadox, I'd recommend staying away from built-in weapons, simply because they'll be unusable if Kessler is wearing armor, which he'll need more due to the lack of Legendary Stamina. That said, a firepower upgrade of some sort would not go amiss - even after all the downsides were listed (and before I realized that the vote had already been called,) I was seriously considering the sword simply because with his default gear, Kessler doesn't have anything suited for dealing with single, really tough targets. Remember back in our very first mission, when Siddharth basically soloed a 120mm-proof Nephandi Iterator with a plasma lance and a phase disruptor? Kessler's arsenal may have a lot of quantity, but it has nowhere near that quality.
 
*bitter laughter* That would be a lot more believable if you hadn't closed the vote in the exact same post as you informed us that we were mistaken. While laughing in sadistic glee.

You were informed. The vote had been fairly in favor of Legendary Stamina before everyone bandwagoned onto a choice for a reason that wasn't actually valid, and there were valid reasons to choose it (it wasn't a suicide choice or anything) so I didn't see any reason to correct it until I got back and it turns out that no, people weren't taking @Kerrus's argument as an argument, they were taking it literally as "this is totally what the true benefit is."

It's pretty good. Like, he has Permadox 5, he'd then have Permadox 2. Not very exciting, but it means he gets less 'Dox, and when he gets backlashes they're less bad. Potentially would let him put in more augs without getting unusably much 'Dox, if he was so inclined.

Like, mechanically it's probably the most vanilla thing there, but everyone can always use less Permadox.

... also, fuckin' hilariously it'd mean he'd now have less Permadox than Jamelia.

Donald: "That's just sick and wrong."

If there are that many people who feel like they would have voted for Legendary Stamina instead (and give up the chance to give Kessler an incredible level of upgrades with possibly a net permanent Paradox decrease at the end of it) I'll see if I can accommodate them. I think Kessler does have barely enough XP to manage it anyhow. Of course this is going to slow down his development of Enlightened Science and other backgrounds some. So that railgun might be out of reach. Again.
 
Is there a way for Kessler to get some survivability upgrades that he doesn't already have from being coated in Primium?
 
The choice that won was not objectively bad. It was, however, unsurpassingly bland. We passed up a cool thing like Jamelia's ridiculous freerunning. Or something more mundane yet still useful, like Cross's ability to ignore called shot and cover penalties. In the short run, legendary stamina was clearly superior. It gave us something useful, right now, at no cost and no risk of corruption.

In the very long run, it all comes down to one question: how much permanent paradox is legendary stamina actually worth?
 
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