For completion's sake: How useful is the permadox reduction and Kessler's name being inserted into the human unconsciousness/dreaming/important universal magicky thing?

It's pretty good. Like, he has Permadox 5, he'd then have Permadox 2. Not very exciting, but it means he gets less 'Dox, and when he gets backlashes they're less bad. Potentially would let him put in more augs without getting unusably much 'Dox, if he was so inclined.

Like, mechanically it's probably the most vanilla thing there, but everyone can always use less Permadox.

... also, fuckin' hilariously it'd mean he'd now have less Permadox than Jamelia.

Donald: "That's just sick and wrong."
 
... also, fuckin' hilariously it'd mean he'd now have less Permadox than Jamelia.

Donald: "That's just sick and wrong."
Henriette: "I call bullshit! Director Belltower doesn't even have an ADEI! Kessler is 47% Primium! He weighs 379 kilos! He's 220cm tall and his eyes glow red! What the fuck?"

John: "It's the hair. Everybody loves the hair."
 
Well, so much for my idea of using the heart to uplift humanity. Instead of smoothies we could have used it as an additive in a vaccine or something (give those anti-vax Verbena something to really cry about!), which would have made for a totally sweet focus for the Progenitors. Best plan, no possible downsides with injecting all of humanity with the heart of avarice and corruption.

If we reforge the sword into an actual sword, maybe we should play up the whole guardian of humanity thing by making it a tool - not for John - that appears when needed. So give it a nice Entropy + Time effect so that it conveniently appears to give those that fight humanity's monsters a decisive edge.

Would the people voting for the sword please actually read what it says?

It needs to be reforged. It's essentially an exotic ingredient at the moment. This does mean you need to find someone with the fuck-high spheres to be able to make - for example - a primium sword from scratch if you want it made into one of those. It's not in a usable state at the moment, and turning it into something usable is not trivial in the Technocracy, where swords went out of fashion quite a while ago.
Don't the VE put rams on some of their ships? Might make for a really useful peace offering with the convention when we decide to do the whole, "Yes, we know about Threat Null already please don't shoot us" thing.
 
It's pretty good. Like, he has Permadox 5, he'd then have Permadox 2. Not very exciting, but it means he gets less 'Dox, and when he gets backlashes they're less bad. Potentially would let him put in more augs without getting unusably much 'Dox, if he was so inclined.

Like, mechanically it's probably the most vanilla thing there, but everyone can always use less Permadox.

... also, fuckin' hilariously it'd mean he'd now have less Permadox than Jamelia.

Donald: "That's just sick and wrong."
To get creative with it, would there be any big magic/enlightened science applications for the fluff of it?

Actually, should think on if there's any for the legendary stamina too.
 
If we reforge the sword into an actual sword, maybe we should play up the whole guardian of humanity thing by making it a tool - not for John - that appears when needed. So give it a nice Entropy + Time effect so that it conveniently appears to give those that fight humanity's monsters a decisive edge.
Okay. And again, who is going to do this? You're talking about someone with Entropy 4, Time... 2 or 3 for that blessing, Matter 5, Prime 5 for the primium, potentially several dots of Forces and/or Spirit... does anyone have an actual suggestion of someone whose Spheres and paradigm would allow them to do something like this, or are they voting to grab a shiny bit of junk on the off-chance that we might be able to turn it into something really cool later if we find someone who can turn it into something we're not sure about but could totally be sweet?
Don't the VE put rams on some of their ships? Might make for a really useful peace offering with the convention when we decide to do the whole, "Yes, we know about Threat Null already please don't shoot us" thing.
Yeah, uh, holding out a semi-RD-ish artefact for them to use might possibly not go down terribly well. Because, you know, a dragon-slaying sword whose mythological legend is such that it can be remade into a weapon of enormous power that carries the hopes and dreams of an entire tradition of humanity's fight against great and terrible forces is, uh... not terribly TU-paradigm-happy.
 
[] The Dragon(Slayer)'s Might: He who slays the dragon demonstrates his superiority over the dragon in might. Gain a Legendary Physical attribute of your choice and +1 to one other physical attribute. Had this been gained from eating of the dragon's heart, it would have echoed the first two (+3 to all attributes, Legendary Physical).
-> Legendary Stamina
-> +1 Strength
 
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[X] The Dragon(Slayer)'s Might
> Legendary Stamina
> +1 Strength

If I understand the way this works... having Legendary Stamina means that the time Kessler was blown through a wall and ate Paradox for surviving that... if that happened when he has Legendary Stamina, it wouldn't be a 'dox backlash anymore? Or something like that; maybe just able to survive even more punishment rather than shrug off lesser damage 'dox-free?



Pictured: John Kessler is briefly inconvenienced as he totals yet another vehicle.
 
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Okay. And again, who is going to do this? You're talking about someone with Entropy 4, Time... 2 or 3 for that blessing, Matter 5, Prime 5 for the primium, potentially several dots of Forces and/or Spirit... does anyone have an actual suggestion of someone whose Spheres and paradigm would allow them to do something like this, or are they voting to grab a shiny bit of junk on the off-chance that we might be able to turn it into something really cool later if we find someone who can turn it into something we're not sure about but could totally be sweet?

Nichols could do it. She also has a non-zero chance of running off with it, going "so long and thanks for all the fish!"

The General could totally reforge it into some kind of weapon. Of course the General is the General, soooo...

You could always give it to Christos, what could go wrong there?

And if you wanted to be super Reality Deviant you could use Spirit 4 to summon and bind a forge-spirit.
 
It's pretty good. Like, he has Permadox 5, he'd then have Permadox 2. Not very exciting, but it means he gets less 'Dox, and when he gets backlashes they're less bad. Potentially would let him put in more augs without getting unusably much 'Dox, if he was so inclined.

Like, mechanically it's probably the most vanilla thing there, but everyone can always use less Permadox.

... also, fuckin' hilariously it'd mean he'd now have less Permadox than Jamelia.

Donald: "That's just sick and wrong."
Henriette: "I call bullshit! Director Belltower doesn't even have an ADEI! Kessler is 47% Primium! He weighs 379 kilos! He's 220cm tall and his eyes glow red! What the fuck?"

John: "It's the hair. Everybody loves the hair."
So what you're saying is that mullets would probably see a resurgence and come back in fashion.
 
Would the people voting for the sword please actually read what it says?

It needs to be reforged. It's essentially an exotic ingredient at the moment. This does mean you need to find someone with the fuck-high spheres to be able to make - for example - a primium sword from scratch if you want it made into one of those. It's not in a usable state at the moment, and turning it into something usable is not trivial in the Technocracy, where swords went out of fashion quite a while ago.
I'm not sure I really see the problem here.

Henrietta is already at Matter 4, Prime 3 (enough to repurpose Primium IIRC) with probably gobs of xp heading her way, and Antoinette Sylia is a big contact for the Construct with Matter 5. Jamelia herself is Entropy 4, and both Kessler and Donald have pretty high Spirit. I mean, we were talking just a few pages back about the Construct's Spheres being pretty damn high.

If Kessler already had a crazy good weapon or were in the habit of using dangerous-as-hell weaponry I could see the reforged sword as being trivial. A scary-ass primium sword is only so useful if you have a railgun. But Kessler is already a trenchcoat-brigade guy with a penchant for conventional arms. A primium sword would be right up his alley, and it's not hard to imagine him using Spirit to awaken the spirit of the sword he gets into something scary as hell.
 
I have been convinced - Changing vote from sword to

[x] Legendary Stamina
 
I have been convinced of the viability of making Kessler even more durable.

[X] The Dragon(Slayer)'s Might: He who slays the dragon demonstrates his superiority over the dragon in might. Gain a Legendary Physical attribute of your choice and +1 to one other physical attribute. Had this been gained from eating of the dragon's heart, it would have echoed the first two (+3 to all attributes, Legendary Physical).
-> Legendary Stamina
-> +1 Strength
 
Now that votes have been locked in and we're quibbling about the finangling the detals, I figured I'd mention a thing.

Was the heart a trap? Sure. Probably. But it was also a choice, and a recurring theme of this choice has been that we define the nature of the universe- of both the quest choices and how the universe reacts- through our own decisions.

Had we chosen consuming the great wyrm, could it have corrupted us? Sure. Would it have corrupted us?

Now that we've chosen NOT TO, almost certainly, because by choosing not to, by declaring that it is a corrupting force and that it's a trap... we've made it into a trap option. We've defined that option we didn't take going forward, which in turn defines some of the universe and the future of this quest.

We saw this before with some of the different mission options- what happened when we didn't pick one. MJ12 even did a spiel on it that everyone seems to have forgotten.

Remember that you are all willworkers here, changing and voting on the destiny of this world, and the actions you choose to not take are just as important as the actions you do take.

Does that mean I think we've made the wrong choice? No. It means that I think that there are not necessarily any 'wrong choices' when the choices are equal, and that there are ways to make things work. I think that by denying a choice, we're defining what that choice means or would have meant in universe as to be negative, rather than making it something we can make good and just and right.

Is that confusing?

GOOD.




Now all that aside, the options we get by locking the vote in are all still incredibly potent, adding on to the already incredibly potent base that is John Kessler, DRAGONSLAYER. I think everyone has their own pet choice, so I'm going to discuss each of them.

[X] Forged By Dragon's Fire: Slaying the great wyrm has imprinted your name on the very dreams of Sleepers themselves. People who never knew what you accomplished will understand, instinctively, that you existed, that you could exist. You are legend. -2 Permanent Paradox.

I think the people who are voting for this- their stated reasons, and the people who are ignoring this, and their stated reasons, are doing a disservice to John, to humanity, and to the endstate of the game. This isn't just -2 permanent paradox, but something far greater that can't be measured in mere game stats. It's an idea, but an idea permanently imprinted on the very dreams of consensus. Do you have any idea how valuable that is? Not just to John for his actions and future actions, but for hope, for the future. With this choice he's creating a new legend, that humanity can triumph against the greatest of evils, and he's doing it with all those classic eighties values like brotherhood and friendship and determination and bonds of loyalty- the stuff that humanity needs now more than ever, the stuff that there, in that timeline that could have been where stasis won, had been stamped out and eliminated for the reality deviance it was!

On top of that, that -2 permanent paradox probably isn't the only benefit, just the most obvious one. Knowing that a man like John Kessler, that a hero could exist, that someone could rise to light the darkest hour- that's going to confer some pretty amazing benefits onto him whenever he's acting in what would be public. We're talking Blatancy 5 here at the very least. Like Chuck Norris facts except people actually believe they're true. And they are true. "Holy shit that guy just punched a laser beam!"

The bonus here is that it isn't just people understand and will understand that he actually existed- long after he's gone to his final rest- but they instinctively recognize that someone like him could exist. That's the real benefit here. That's hope and it's hope that will see the rise of heroes in the defense of mankind long after the man named John Kessler is dead and gone. I think that of all the options this one of the best- not for just the personal mechanical bonuses, but for everything else.


[ ] King Beowulf's Sword: It's a pathetic looking thing, isn't it? Poor quality steel, pitted and cracked from all this abuse, half-dissolved by the caustic wyrm's blood? Nevertheless, the importance of this weapon cannot be misstated. Should someone be able to take it apart and reforge it with better materials, its strength of story would make it a weapon of unbelievable ability, specialized in slaying those who would threaten mankind with monstrous might. Right now though it's just a really bad blade.

The part people are forgetting is that this blade is a legend in of itself. It has a preternatural existence where it finds its way into the hands of those who need it, those who are defending mankind against those who threaten it with monstrous might. Right now it's half-dissolved, pitted, worn, ruined, but just like the dragon it's still a thing of legend. It's a really bad blade, but a blade doesn't have to be a sword, or even a cutting edge. We could, absolutely, reforge it into a gun, into a replacement for John's trusty thunderhead, or a Mjolnir type or whatever. It would serve for a long time, and probably pass through many hands. It would brings its blessings and its legend to those who wield it, and stand against the enemies of man. But it is a weapon, and though it is legend, it has no will of its own. It can't make decisions, it can't even aid decisions, save by its appearance and disappearance, and frankly anyone who causes it to flee the coup probably won't care that it's gone.

I think the question is ultimately what tools you desire and what would you have mankind believe in. Would you have them remember a legend- for remember a legend they shall- for his weapon? To know that in times of darkness against threads dire that weapon could find its way to you, had you only the strength to wield it?

That's a powerful belief, and I cannot understate that this choice is just as strong as the first one, but that the particulars are different. This would be, for as long as we need it, for as long as John lives before he passes it on, immense personal utility to be used against mankind's enemies. It is a weapon of legend, and by reforging it, we would be reforging its legend.


[ ] The Dragon's Scales: Destroying the dragon means most of its treasure is lost forever. But even there, some of it is with you. Its very body is precious in a way that extends to metaphor. Its scales are beautiful, nigh-unbreakable. Its claws immensely sharp, capable of tearing through even the armor of a battleship. You can break some of them off, bring them back. You can use them as the basis of a... somewhat heterodox... Device of immense power.

This choice is interesting because it takes what remains of the dragon's legend and subverts it. By making an armor we have both weapon and protection, and the strength of the Dragon's legend now flows into the armor, and the one who wields it. But by doing so it is, in a way, purified, because all the rage and tyranny of the dragon has gone. That legend still matters, but it's toothless, the dragon can- has- and always will be defeated, and from its teeth we build the armory that will safeguard our future.

This option is a lot more personal powerup, but also riskier because while absolutely top tier, the armor would just be... armor. Weapons. A device, certainly, perhaps even a wonder with a spark of John's permanent willpower within it, but something that can be taken. Something that can be used against us. Of course nobody's taken the things we truly own before, not really, but it's something that can happen.

Of course by accepting that risk we are gaining a greater reward. This armor is legend, and it will protect the one who bears it and let them fight and win against nearly any foe, let them battle the enemies of man with clear eyes and open hands-that-end-in-battleship-piercing-claws!

For all the choices this one gives the best personal powerup. Risk? Reward. In all honesty it'd probably be way better than the Nobel November suit, and given who John is he could probably get the NN suit incorporated into it for the best of both worlds.



[ ] The Dragon(Slayer)'s Might: He who slays the dragon demonstrates his superiority over the dragon in might. Gain a Legendary Physical attribute of your choice and +1 to one other physical attribute. Had this been gained from eating of the dragon's heart, it would have echoed the first two (+3 to all attributes, Legendary Physical).


Legendary stats can't be undervalued. Jamelia has Legendary Dex, which lets her wallrun coincidentally. Legendary abilities, even when below their max, have added benefits. Additionally, a legendary attribute can be raised, naturally, to six, and will never incur permanent paradox for going beyond the human. So at the very least John will be losing a dot of permanent paradox for taking this, but it will be a personal decrease, not because of his legend.

I agree with Earthscorpion that Legendary Stamina is probably the best option- there are a number of ways that could manifest, and they're all pretty awesome.

For example:

Soak any attack with full soak regardless of conditions.

This would let John roll Stamina+Armor against any attack, even one that targets a chink in his armor or is made in a way that would bypass it. Mind freem? Stamina+Armor. Gas attack? Stamina+Armor. Missing both arms and in the middle of a major refit? Stamina+Armor!

Autosoak mundane attacks

We're talking Megastamina from Aberrant- the ability to dismiss mundane attacks automatically is something that John almost already does, though heavier attacks still threaten him. But when most of the enemies we go gun to claw with are supernatural that becomes less valuable- but cannot be understated. All the thralls of the vampires firing AKs and rocket launchers at him can now be ignored. He doesn't even have to worry about his synthskin burning off in public anymore.

Unkillable

The ultimate survivor, you will survive even in the face of all the odds. If any attack would reduce you to less than 1 HL from more than 1 HL, it reduces you to 1 HL instead. Though you may be bruised, battered, worn, and damaged, you will survive. No one who lives is tougher than John Kessler!


So those are the options, I've made my own vote but you should really consider each one accordingly, because they're all really really good and I think a lot of people have been excluding certain ones because the listed mechanical bonuses aren't shiny enough.
 
I'm not sure I really see the problem here.

Henrietta is already at Matter 4, Prime 3 (enough to repurpose Primium IIRC) with probably gobs of xp heading her way, and Antoinette Sylia is a big contact for the Construct with Matter 5.
Yes, you will note the "and paradigm" in what I said. Because a paradigm of "I'm Iron Maiden"? Is not terribly conducive to reforging a spiritual artefact into something that draws out its full power and potential as a symbol of humanity's strength when united against the monsters that would seek to tear down civilisation and return it to fearful ignorance and slavery. Nor is "I'm an incredibly well-trained agent" very good at a blessing like "this sword will always find its way into the hands of one who truly has need of it".

Paradigms matter. They are not inconveniences you deal with to get at the effects in the Spheres, it's the other way around. Paradigms are what your powers come from; Spheres merely model the effects. If your paradigm does not support an effect that you have the Spheres for, you cannot do it, because you have no focus for it.

And before you start saying that Jamelia doesn't need a focus for Entropy anymore, I invite you to justify her using blatant RDism to make an RD sword that is basically Excalibur/the Sword of Gryffindor, when we could just make Kessler the next best thing to indestructible instead.
 
[X] Forged By Dragon's Fire: Slaying the great wyrm has imprinted your name on the very dreams of Sleepers themselves. People who never knew what you accomplished will understand, instinctively, that you existed, that you could exist. You are legend. -2 Permanent Paradox.
 
Yes, you will note the "and paradigm" in what I said. Because a paradigm of "I'm Iron Maiden"? Is not terribly conducive to reforging a spiritual artefact into something that draws out its full power and potential as a symbol of humanity's strength when united against the monsters that would seek to tear down civilisation and return it to fearful ignorance and slavery. Nor is "I'm an incredibly well-trained agent" very good at a blessing like "this sword will always find its way into the hands of one who truly has need of it".

Paradigms matter. They are not inconveniences you deal with to get at the effects in the Spheres, it's the other way around. Paradigms are what your powers come from; Spheres merely model the effects. If your paradigm does not support an effect that you have the Spheres for, you cannot do it, because you have no focus for it.

And before you start saying that Jamelia doesn't need a focus for Entropy anymore, I invite you to justify her using blatant RDism to make an RD sword that is basically Excalibur/the Sword of Gryffindor, when we could just make Kessler the next best thing to indestructible instead.


But remeber what John's paradigm is- he can hack an EDE possessing a person because cyborgs. Similarly, he can empower a spirit by taking care of its physical housing. By reforging the sword- that's enough in his paradigm for him to empower the spirit, to draw out its full power- and he can do that even if the person actually making the weapon is blind to the spiritual.
 
And before you start saying that Jamelia doesn't need a focus for Entropy anymore, I invite you to justify her using blatant RDism to make an RD sword that is basically Excalibur/the Sword of Gryffindor, when we could just make Kessler the next best thing to indestructible instead.

If it was Donald, this would be simple. "I paid a Reality Deviant a large wad of dosh to make it for me."
 
[X] The Dragon(Slayer)'s Might: He who slays the dragon demonstrates his superiority over the dragon in might. Gain a Legendary Physical attribute of your choice and +1 to one other physical attribute. Had this been gained from eating of the dragon's heart, it would have echoed the first two (+3 to all attributes, Legendary Physical).
-> Legendary Stamina
-> +1 Strength
 
Yes, you will note the "and paradigm" in what I said. Because a paradigm of "I'm Iron Maiden"? Is not terribly conducive to reforging a spiritual artefact into something that draws out its full power and potential as a symbol of humanity's strength when united against the monsters that would seek to tear down civilisation and return it to fearful ignorance and slavery. Nor is "I'm an incredibly well-trained agent" very good at a blessing like "this sword will always find its way into the hands of one who truly has need of it".

Paradigms matter. They are not inconveniences you deal with to get at the effects in the Spheres, it's the other way around. Paradigms are what your powers come from; Spheres merely model the effects. If your paradigm does not support an effect that you have the Spheres for, you cannot do it, because you have no focus for it.
I think you are vastly oversimplifying both the Sword of King Beowulf and the paradigm of Iteration X if you think that there is no common ground to be found between those paradigms. Iteration X itself isn't The Computer, and it never really was. Maybe Threat Null wouldn't have any belief in or respect for the weapon of one of the greatest champions of humanity, but it's absurd to say Iteration X in general or Antoinette Sylia specifically wouldn't if you took some time to explain it to her.

There's a reason that Reina has a hero of the Technocracy from back in the early days in her brain instead of Jamelia, and there's a reason ACHILLES is named after a greek hero. There's a reason Iteration X still thinks the Terminator is cool and a worthy opponent even if it's an obsolete HIT Mark by their standards. I absolutely believe that you can reconcile taking some of the strength of the myth of Beowulf and using it to make a modern weapon in-paradigm.
 
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If Kessler already had a crazy good weapon or were in the habit of using dangerous-as-hell weaponry I could see the reforged sword as being trivial. A scary-ass primium sword is only so useful if you have a railgun. But Kessler is already a trenchcoat-brigade guy with a penchant for conventional arms. A primium sword would be right up his alley, and it's not hard to imagine him using Spirit to awaken the spirit of the sword he gets into something scary as hell.

People kept voting for survivability and power armor over big guns. Iteration X has a sizable arsenal of very, very big guns. He still has his X-14, which is a great crowd pleaser (by which I mean crowds go "can you please not turn us into small chunks of hamburger, sah? Please?") after all.
 
[X] Forged By Dragon's Fire: Slaying the great wyrm has imprinted your name on the very dreams of Sleepers themselves. People who never knew what you accomplished will understand, instinctively, that you existed, that you could exist. You are legend. -2 Permanent Paradox. (This is a weaker version of what you'd have gotten had you consumed the great wyrm's legend in its entirety).
 
I give ES credit for thinking in literary and thematic terms rather than purely mechanical terms when the decision as to whether or not we eat the heart came up.

But let's be serious here- THIS is also a choice of theme or paradigm, even if it's one the players are making rather than John Kessler. The question is whether it's John Kessler who can slay the dragon and save humanity - or whether any human, any heroic man, any patriot or mother's son could potentially have done the deed.

Both are certainly true from a certain point of view. The second may feel like it's not giving John due credit, but it's the kind of ideal that he's devoted his life to upholding- that humanity is stronger than the monsters that it faces. Iteration X in particular, who John has devoted his life to, is all about Enough Gun. Back in the day it was Enough Sword, for some it may be Enough Plasma Cannon, but the ideal is empowerment of humanity in particular through technology, not just mages.
 
The bonus here is that it isn't just people understand and will understand that he actually existed- long after he's gone to his final rest- but they instinctively recognize that someone like him could exist. That's the real benefit here. That's hope and it's hope that will see the rise of heroes in the defense of mankind long after the man named John Kessler is dead and gone. I think that of all the options this one of the best- not for just the personal mechanical bonuses, but for everything else.
Hmm. I think I like this, even if making Kessler even more hard to kill has its attractions.

[x] Forged By Dragon's Fire: Slaying the great wyrm has imprinted your name on the very dreams of Sleepers themselves. People who never knew what you accomplished will understand, instinctively, that you existed, that you could exist. You are legend. -2 Permanent Paradox.
 
But remeber what John's paradigm is- he can hack an EDE possessing a person because cyborgs. Similarly, he can empower a spirit by taking care of its physical housing. By reforging the sword- that's enough in his paradigm for him to empower the spirit, to draw out its full power- and he can do that even if the person actually making the weapon is blind to the spiritual.
... yes, but now we get into the opposite problem, because Kessler is only Matter 3, Prime 2, and he has to have the Spheres to do it even if his paradigm fits.

And honestly, I don't think we need the sword. We have weapons, and we can requisition weapons. As MJ said, Kessler still has the M14A Thunderhead Heavy Machine Gun, which is a ridiculously heavy weapon. Weapons - even big weapons - are not something the Union has a massive shortage of. Giving Kessler a shitload less permadox or a shitload more toughness, on the other hand, are things we can't really get in other ways.
 
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