Alternatively, it shows that when presented with new information she didn't expect that has incredible implications about her personal identity and could very well be used against her she feels that it's best to regroup to plan out her actions when dealing with Dyne or reassess her priorities. It could also mean that she doesn't actually trust Dyne as a source of unbiased information given her hatred toward Jazmin, and would rather pursue less potentially misleading avenues of inquiry first that won't color her perceptions or risk giving away such valuable information to one of her most bitter enemies. Hell, someone might even think the conditioning she has subconsciously biases her towards making decisions that steer her away from inquiring about these things further and dismissing them, or any other myriad reasons.
Ok. Now stop for a second. Stop and imagine that you actually did not have any prior knowledge of the memory alterations before this. What would you be voting for*? Because THAT is how Jamelia should be acting if she wants to bluff that she did not have any prior knowledge.


*I'll bet it would be "pretend you know what she's talking about while subtly prodding for more information"
 
Ok. Now stop for a second. Stop and imagine that you actually did not have any prior knowledge of the memory alterations before this. What would you be voting for*? Because THAT is how Jamelia should be acting if she wants to bluff that she did not have any prior knowledge.


*I'll bet it would be "pretend you know what she's talking about while subtly prodding for more information"
Wait, wait, wait. It's not two states we need to worry about - it's three.

- We have no memory alterations. This is what Dyne thinks currently. Convincing her of anything else will be giving her new information. This is *also* what our peers and superiors in the Technocracy think. This one is important because new information catalyses action, and we'd kind of prefer that she not act too much while we try to get this situation under control.

- We have memory alterations that we don't know about. This is what Threat Null thinks. Threat Null isn't here right now, though. If we convince her that we've had memory alterations that we don't know about, there's a good chance that she'll "let it slip" in some way, leading us to state 3.

- We have memory alterations that we *do* know about. Convincing her of this is functionally equivalent to picking choice 1, which just about everyone appears to be adamantly against.

The only ways to functionally avoid state three are to leave her convinced of state 1, or to convince her of state 2, and then beat feet before she can correct us (which also hands her more ammo that she *knows* is ammo, and leaves her significantly more aware of the power of her current arsenal - neither of which is a good thing).
 
But if Dyne goes over to Threat Null, there's no way they won't know Jamelia knows, because Dyne mentioned Nicaragua to our face. The only way to win is to stop her from going over TN.
 
Ok. Now stop for a second. Stop and imagine that you actually did not have any prior knowledge of the memory alterations before this. What would you be voting for*? Because THAT is how Jamelia should be acting if she wants to bluff that she did not have any prior knowledge.


*I'll bet it would be "pretend you know what she's talking about while subtly prodding for more information"

1, I don't necessarily believe that how I would vote in this would be a accurate reflection of the things Jamelia in character would be mos likely to do.

2. I don't necessarily believe what we most likely do in this situation is what the people who knew Jemelia now, much less decades ago would expect her to react in that situation

3. I'm fairly you'd actually be wrong. I'd probably actually assume this was a ruse to throw us off our most likely objective.
 
Step 1) Bluff/get out.
Step 2) Talk to our amalagam about this
Step 3) Use step two as a wedge to pry Jamellia loose from her vice (or at least get a start on it) because dear mod it's terrible when our current goals require building *trust* in the TU.

That's really what the long term course of action seems to be to me.

Short term, finding a way to keep CD from going over to the other side is a good idea, but not sure how...
 
Its super easy
We dont need to it personally.

We have allies. More importantly ItX will be over her company like a thirsty camel to water.


Dynes about to be very popular with both sides of ItX leadership
 
Do we want someone who hates us to be very popular with both sides of ItX leadership? Really?

Garrison likes you, Antoinette likes you (and her mom has no emotions), and Lovelace is positively inclined towards you. They're not going to change their opinions simply because she's butt-mad about a classified operation that they can't access because it's NTK/VIGILANCE. If they can access it, they've formed said opinions already knowing what Jamelia did there and made Dyne hate her so much.

Your thinking isn't wrong but that doesn't always mean your plan is right. That's the fun part about this quest! The discussion and internal debate informs a lot more than just direct first-order reactions! I certainly like adjusting the world to what you guys think is happening.
 
Your thinking isn't wrong but that doesn't always mean your plan is right. That's the fun part about this quest! The discussion and internal debate informs a lot more than just direct first-order reactions! I certainly like adjusting the world to what you guys think is happening.
By any chance, is Threat Null so interested in Jamelia because she has an exceptionally powerful impact on the Consensus in-universe?

Like changing Solar Exalted into something else by ignoring them, for example?
 
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Personally I'm kind of fine with the Exalted elements remaining in place in the background rather than becoming something else, because it's hilarious for the plot to basically tell Solar Exalted that they really aren't that important in the grand scheme of things.
 
Garrison likes you, Antoinette likes you (and her mom has no emotions), and Lovelace is positively inclined towards you. They're not going to change their opinions simply because she's butt-mad about a classified operation that they can't access because it's NTK/VIGILANCE. If they can access it, they've formed said opinions already knowing what Jamelia did there and made Dyne hate her so much.

Sure... but that's not really the point. Let's suppose that Dyne gets into her happy place snuggled up to the ItX higher-ups. Let's further suppose that her distaste for us is both still there and not hidden. There's a good cahnce that Aleph would find out about it - and hey! Insight into what makes us tick. He's been wanting some of that. He has a little sit-down chat with her in which he expresses "concerns" about us in a beating-around-the-bush sort of way. I'm pretty sure she'd be happy to open up on the matter... and from there to Threat Null knowing about her is a relatively short hop - and at that point, Threat Null knows about her and has a serious in to try to turn the lady.

Even without Threat Null under the bed, it's not that I'm concerned that she'll turn them against us. It's that she'll be given a position of some degree of power and responsibility, and she'll be waiting. I can almost *guarantee* that at some point she'll have an opportunity to make our lives a *lot* more difficult, and would take it with relish.

Your thinking isn't wrong but that doesn't always mean your plan is right. That's the fun part about this quest! The discussion and internal debate informs a lot more than just direct first-order reactions! I certainly like adjusting the world to what you guys think is happening.

I'm not even saying that my plan is Best Plan. I'm saying that people seem to be flocking to the currently prevailing pan in an attempt at damage control, and as a plan, it's not that good at damage control. I would be *delighted* if someone could come up with a better plan to handle the situation, that had a solid chance to defuse the situation without revealing anything further, but I haven't seen one yet and I'm not currently convinced it's possible. I'd be happy to see someone come out with a better plan to let out a controlled amount of information, possibly with some disinformation (as mine does) that does so better and more efficiently. I'd probably change my vote.

Still, if people find my idea unacceptable on the face of it, there are other options that might manage this. How about this one?

[] Apologize. Apologize deeply. Think about the fact that she really did get screwed over by your actions through no fault of her own and try to show real contrition. Say that you hadn't known what had happened to her until just recently (they sent you through INVISIBLE BEAR and then worked you like a dog for about a decade, and by the time you got out you'd lost track of basically everyone). Say that you'd just recently discovered what happened, that you really do think she was treated unfairly, and that you're pulling some strings to try to get her back in. Possibly mention that you're pretty sure you could get her into a fairly good position wrt ItX leadership, but that they're requiring you to investigate at least a bit, just in case. She'll likely come out of it still disliking us, and thinking badly of us, but if we swing it right, she won't feel motivated to actually do us harm, and we have a decent shot of getting more information (via rant or investigation).

I'm trying here, I really am.
 
We don't even know the details of what Jamelia would be apologizing about.

Really, let's just scram. Don't go into sunk costs fallacy here. There's already seeming net loss from coming here, and on balance sticking around looks like it'll cost more than leaving.

I don't consider leaving to be the best option because it gains us anything, because it doesn't. I consider it the best option because it loses us the least.
 
*She* doesn't know the details of what we'd be apologizing about. She wasn't in the area, and they certainly wouldn't have told her. Also, mostly what we're apologizing for is "our screwup made things worse for you and we didn't realize."

It's not about sunk costs. It's about additional costs, and additional gains. What additional do you think apologizing costs us, anyway?
 
*She* doesn't know the details of what we'd be apologizing about. She wasn't in the area, and they certainly wouldn't have told her. Also, mostly what we're apologizing for is "our screwup made things worse for you and we didn't realize."

It's not about sunk costs. It's about additional costs, and additional gains. What additional do you think apologizing costs us, anyway?
Given Dyne has her memories and Jamelia doesn't, I'm reasonably certain Dyne knows more than Jamelia. This is a bad thing, particularly if she figures that out.

And it costs us potentially tipping our hand.
 
Given Dyne has her memories and Jamelia doesn't, I'm reasonably certain Dyne knows more than Jamelia. This is a bad thing, particularly if she figures that out.

And it costs us potentially tipping our hand.
Dyne knows more, overall, about our past, but most likely all she knows about the debacle was that Starling went Nephandi, we went rogue and came back, and she got mothballed. The rest would have been pretty heavily classified, and if she was getting mothballed hard enough that they lost track of her entirely and she couldn't fix that herself, then they certainly weren't telling her what happened in detail (...and she would have known that what they *were* telling her probably wasn't all that trustworthy)

Also, and more to the point, she doesn't want to know our justifications. She wants a chance to yell at us and be better than us and get back where she belongs. She'll be only too happy to keep the conversations off of our explanations and onto her grievances. It costs us basically nothing to give her that, and could net us a fair bit.

Everything we do gives her information. We can't stop that from happening. All we can do is control what information we leave - what impression we leave her with. If we came in here, we had to have a reason. If we leave in a way that indicates that her yelling at us was not in our initial plan, that means that her yelling at us is new information - and she's good enough to have a decent chance of going from that to "hey, I bet she had some memory editing" on her own. Thus, in order to not tip our hand, we have to have some explanation of why we are there in spite of her yelling at us. "Bluff and go" doesn't really do that.

Again, I will note that this sort of situation is almost exactly what Jamelia is good at. The adversary is talking and off-balance. We have to tread lightly, because she knows who we are and she's good at what she does, but I guarantee that Jamelia has way more experience with this sort of scenario than Dyne does, currently has more of the immediately pertinent information, and is less personally invested to boot.
 
Dyne is talking, but not off balance. She hates Jamelia, but there is no indication that hate is making her irrational. Indeed, Dyne has been noted to be an usually NWO-ish Iterator, and so there's indication against her being emotionally compromised.

Jamelia thrives in situations where she has the advantage. Usually surprise or having more information.

Jamelia does not have those advantages here. Dyne does. And Dyne dislikes Jamelia.

So no, this is not the sort of situation Jamelia is good at, because this is an actively bad situation to be in.
 
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Dyne is talking, but not off balance. She hates Jamelia, but there is no indication that hate is making her irrational. Indeed, Dyne has been noted to be an usually NWO-ish Iterator, and so there's indication against her being emotionally compromised.

Jamelia thrives in situations where she has the advantage. Usually surprise or having more information.

Jamelia does not have those advantages here. Dyne does. And Dyne dislikes Jamelia.

So no, this is not the sort of situation Jamelia is good at, because this is an actively bad situation to be in.

Jamelia absolutely has the information advantage here. Dyne has knowledge of what happened waaaay back in the day. This is useful information that we want, but it has almost no impact on tactics in the immediate situation. We have knowledge of the current state of the world. We have a decent knowledge of her objectives, her assets, and her mental state. She knows none of that for us. We know what it would take to get her what she wants. She does not know what it would take to get us what we want. We have *tremendous* informational advantages here.

Admittedly, Dyne may not be fully off-balance, but she's certainly invested, and way more than we are. For us, this is a lead, and we need to make sure it doesn't blow up in our face. For her, this is the shape of her *life*, in addition to her emotional investment - and even if she can play the NWO game, I guarantee we play it better. Also, she's at least somewhat emotionally compromised, because if she weren't, this would be trivial.

Oh, and for the record for all of you...
JB XXIX: EXORDIUM

"Good, because I would not trust such an offer. You'd just want to drag me off to some reprogramming facility, to bring back the old fire and ice. Talking about reprogramming, are you still tripped out on painkillers all the time? Still wondering where your American bosses got the knowledge for INVISIBLE BEAR from? Maybe you've come to me for the better kind of drug your Americans failed to get their hands on?"

Jamelia ignores her. She's poked into INVISIBLE BEAR herself, through backdoors, and for all that the Russian Technocracy complains that most of the techniques used in it were stolen back in the seventies, those complaints appear to be ungrounded. She thinks. The fact that it's called "INVISIBLE BEAR" is probably why the Russians won't give it up. "I'm here in Russia for another purpose," she says calmly. "I didn't even know you'd..." she picks her words carefully, "... handed in your notice until I asked some questions of Ivan."

The fact that Jamelia has INVISIBLE BEAR? the fact that that involved a fairly heavy personality rewrite? This is not news. The Deadelans in Moscow knew these things. The "secret" that everyone seems so opposed to giving up is *worthless* out in the wider world.
 
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*my train of thought*Ok, I'm back, it looks like people haven't updated yet, let's see if ES has made another one of his awesome write-ins to switch to...
...
...Wow, I think this is the first time I've outright disagreed with him. I'll leave my vote as is.
 
Oh, and for the record for all of you...


The fact that Jamelia has INVISIBLE BEAR? the fact that that involved a fairly heavy personality rewrite? This is not news. The Deadelans in Moscow knew these things. The "secret" that everyone seems so opposed to giving up is *worthless* out in the wider world.

I'm sorry, what? Are you actually saying saying that the Daedelan woman who was presumably a high level russian technocrat saying "Speaking of Reprogramming " in reference to Jamelia undergoing the Invisible Bear Treatment means it's not news that she's had a large portion of her memories rewritten? Do you think that maybe she might have been referencing the fact that Invisible Bear was a super-soldier/spy program that mainly involved rewriting vast portions of the subjects nervous system and psyche to do things like rewriting instinctual responses to be useful in a postmodern combat paradigm, removing her ability to feel pain or other sorts of combat fatigue, and enhancing her precision, reaction times, and cognition that if I recall even gave her a number of superhuman attributes including manipulation 6. Especially considering that the sentence continues with "are you still tripped out on painkillers all the time?" and her addiction to painkillers is a direct result of said modifications. I think it might be more likely that she that this is the mental reprogramming she's talking about, which was on the mental level, which is sort of why Panopticon managed to shut it off with a command phrase. Keep in mind this is mostly information that is on the front page, in one of the first posts, on the character sheet of our main character.

Hell, in your very quote we see that from what we now Jamelia probably knows more about it then she does given she seemed to erroneously think it was based on Russian techniques, which also leads me to believe that the only well own things about it are the easily perceived effects of it. Also, considering the highly trusted veteran superspy who was one of the first recipients of the treatment had to use backdoor channels to find out, it's probably not exactly common knowledge.

Of course I don't know why this even matter, because to put it quite bluntly even if you were right, that is NOT The secret people are worried about. No one cares that people know Jamelia has Invisible Bear, that cat sort of went out the bag when Panopticon switched it off and we had Serafina augment her a entirely different way. The fact that she had her memories rewritten is probably known to certain people in high level technocratic position, the big secret is that Jamelia KNOWS that it happened now and is investigating it. This is something I and other have said a number of times.

I'm sorry if I'm very flippant at the moment or seem like I'm nitpicking, but I feel like your being incredibly smug about something very easily explained as if it blows a crucial part of your opponents argument out of the water.
 
I'm sorry, what? Are you actually saying saying that the Daedelan woman who was presumably a high level russian technocrat saying "Speaking of Reprogramming " in reference to Jamelia undergoing the Invisible Bear Treatment means it's not news that she's had a large portion of her memories rewritten?

No. I'm saying that it's not news that she's had a large portion of her *personality* rewritten. No one has been proposing that we tell her that we've had memories scrubbed. My initial proposal was only to let her know that we'd had our personality scrubbed (in a deniable way, with some disinformation folded in). Thus the acting like a hyper-professional drone. Big difference.
 
No. I'm saying that it's not news that she's had a large portion of her *personality* rewritten. No one has been proposing that we tell her that we've had memories scrubbed. My initial proposal was only to let her know that we'd had our personality scrubbed (in a deniable way, with some disinformation folded in). Thus the acting like a hyper-professional drone. Big difference.
The more time we spend around Dyne, the more chance she has of deducing the memory editing.

Just because we don't tell her doesn't mean she can't notice.
 
Dyne was part of Helmetshrike right? Well, we already talked with one former helmetshrike dude - Arlan. She may have no sympathy for Jamellia, but maybe she'll have sympathy for him?
 
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