The more time we spend around Dyne, the more chance she has of deducing the memory editing.

Just because we don't tell her doesn't mean she can't notice.
That's true... which is why the plans that I have suggested have things in place to control for that - like keeping the topic elsewhere, and letting her do most of the talking when we're talking about the past, and so forth. Have you read what I've been writing, though? Booking it out of here without providing a viable explanation for why we were here in the first place given the hostility that we would have known she had has a nontrivial chance of letting her deduce it too. If we hang around a little, we have some influence over what conclusions she comes to and what she does as a result (quite a lot of influence, really). If we leave, it goes on without us.
 
That's true... which is why the plans that I have suggested have things in place to control for that - like keeping the topic elsewhere, and letting her do most of the talking when we're talking about the past, and so forth. Have you read what I've been writing, though? Booking it out of here without providing a viable explanation for why we were here in the first place given the hostility that we would have known she had has a nontrivial chance of letting her deduce it too. If we hang around a little, we have some influence over what conclusions she comes to and what she does as a result (quite a lot of influence, really). If we leave, it goes on without us.
For 'reading what's been written', follow your own advice. The leave vote does cover providing an excuse before we scram.
 
Viable explanation: We came here because the Technocracy is interested in reactivating Dyne and integrating Cybersolutions.

She doesn't like us, so we let her know of the Union's interest in acquiring Cybersolutions, tell her someone else will be in contact, and leave.

Seriously, it even has the advantage of being true.
 
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No. I'm saying that it's not news that she's had a large portion of her *personality* rewritten.

The "secret" that everyone seems so opposed to giving up is *worthless* out in the wider world.


Okay, so I shouldn't have taken the first parts to mean you believe the invisible bear procedure was the same procedure that too away Jamelia's memories, and the the personality Rewrite was a part of that. I used that interpretation, because the other, less charitable was that you were either confused about hat people think is the big secret thats informing a large part of your oppositions vote, I missed someone saying this. Because that certainly is not it.

That's true... which is why the plans that I have suggested have things in place to control for that - like keeping the topic elsewhere, and letting her do most of the talking when we're talking about the past, and so forth. Have you read what I've been writing, though? Booking it out of here without providing a viable explanation for why we were here in the first place given the hostility that we would have known she had has a nontrivial chance of letting her deduce it too. If we hang around a little, we have some influence over what conclusions she comes to and what she does as a result (quite a lot of influence, really). If we leave, it goes on without us.

Err, what exactly do you think the votes to bluff are wanting us to bluff about? What else other then bluffing about why we're here, which is what the people who've made the vote have been talking about. Like, what, do you think it means she's going to make a random false claim and then run out full speed?
 
Okay, so I shouldn't have taken the first parts to mean you believe the invisible bear procedure was the same procedure that too away Jamelia's memories, and the the personality Rewrite was a part of that. I used that interpretation, because the other, less charitable was that you were either confused about hat people think is the big secret thats informing a large part of your oppositions vote, I missed someone saying this. Because that certainly is not it.

No. You're missing it. There are two different options for "things we could reveal". The first is that we could reveal that our memories were changed by INVISIBLE BEAR (and, by extension, that we know our memories have been changed). Nobody wants this. No plan includes this. Everyone looked at this and said "No, that's a terrible idea", myself included. The second is that we could reveal that INVISIBLE BEAR caused a death of the personality, or nearly so. This was my proposal (with a fair bit of write-in). Most of the rest of you, however, seemed to respond "No, that's still a terrible idea, we're still telling her far too much vital and dangerous information, we need to just bluff and go." My point here was that this was not, in fact, vital and dangerous information, as there was already a large group of people who had it, and who had reason to expect that Jamelia had it.

If that's *not* where the opposition is coming from, then where is it?

Err, what exactly do you think the votes to bluff are wanting us to bluff about? What else other then bluffing about why we're here, which is what the people who've made the vote have been talking about. Like, what, do you think it means she's going to make a random false claim and then run out full speed?

No, but if you look a layer or two down, the explanations given are not adequate to the task. The one write-in (not a bad one) basically says "Why yes, I am doing quite well. I have this opportunity to help you, but I suppose if you would prefer, I can pencil in one of my minions". We're NWO enough that if we'd known how she'd react, and known how much hate she'd have, we'd never have walked in in the first place. We'd have sent the minion to begin with. If we want her to believe that we, as a competent, high-ranking NWO operative, came here knowing our full past, we're going to have to imply a viable motivation that would be sufficient for a competent, high-ranking NWO operative to have come here under those conditions. I haven't seen anyone propose one yet, unless we go with the write-in, and the implied motivation of disliking her ourselves and wanting to rub her face in it... which also seems like a poor idea. Perhaps you saw someone write up a bluff that I didn't.

Viable explanation: We came here because the Technocracy is interested in reactivating Dyne and integrating Cybersolutions.

She doesn't like us, so we let her know of the Union's interest in acquiring Cybersolutions, tell her someone else will be in contact, and leave.

Seriously, it even has the advantage of being true.
Sure... but (and I'm saying this twice in different ways, because I've said it before, and it didn't seem to stick) that's not enough to explain why we came in person, rather than sending someone like Donald in instead. Right now, we're in a situation where, having made a nonoptimal decision without full information, we have to somehow justify having made it intentionally with full information.

Mind you, I can't *really* blame you all for skimming over the text-walls. I was a philosophy minor in college and never quite got over it.
 
Jamelia sighs, letting her eyes drop. "Harlan took it about as well when I told him he was being reactivated. I apologize. I should have asked someone else to handle contact."

She looks at Catherine then, straight on "Harlan wanted to tell me to go and... well, do something unpleasant to myself. I could see that. I can see you do too. But he was still a Technocrat. And whatever you feel about me, I believe that you still care about the Union, too." You wouldn't be so angry otherwise, she doesn't add.

"I can ask for someone from Iteration-X to take over from me. I..." she swallows, and she doesn't even have to fake the consternation weighing on her stomach though she intends to keep the reason for that opaque. "The Union has to come first." She turns, slightly, telegraphing her intent to leave. "I'll see myself out."

/write

Okay, yeah, that was terrible, but ugh, someone has to make actual suggestions instead of arguing SEKRITS.
 
Goddamnit, my brain is basically in corkscrew mode right now.

I think we're being way too paranoid here.

For fuck's sake, there's no point in hiding the fact that we've had memory alterations from Dyne. Why the fuck are we even trying?

If she gets suspicious and looks it up, she'll find the truth; we had our memories edited, we genuinely forgot she hated us, and so we came personally because we've already handled the past few reactivations and thought why the hell not. It's not like Jamelia with edited memories wouldn't remember Dyne as a colleague (she remembered HELMETSHRIKE just fine), just the bit about her having a really good reason to hate us.

This is assuming she even finds anything.

The important thing to hide is the fact that we've regained said edited memories.
 
Okay, having thought about it, I'm going to vote this way.

[X] (0.6x) Tell her the truth about your memory gap and let her make a biased rant. (Requires suppressing Chameleon)

Elaboration on that: We act genuinely surprised (because we are), and we let her rant about Nicaragua and how we fucked up, occasionally prodding for more details where necessary.

We're not telling Dyne anything that Threat Null doesn't already know by doing this. All Dyne will learn is that we've forgotten what happened in Nicaragua. We're certainly not tipping her off to the fact that we've already recovered our memories.

If she talks with Aleph or some other agent of Threat Null (or if Aleph is spying on us through his tea leaves), they're going to know that Dyne has tipped Jamelia off to our edited memories, and they're most likely going to assume that Jamelia would proceed to do some digging into her past, and act accordingly.

So, the moment Dyne talks, the cat is out of the bag. If we prod her for info now, we have a headstart because we have more information to use. Really, if we want to keep this hidden from TN, we need to a) make sure that Dyne doesn't speak to anyone and b) hope that we aren't being spied on.
 
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For fuck's sake, there's no point in hiding the fact that we've had memory alterations from Dyne. Why the fuck are we even trying?

If she gets suspicious and looks it up, she'll find the truth; we had our memories edited, we genuinely forgot she hated us, and so we came personally because we've already handled the past few reactivations and thought why the hell not. It's not like Jamelia with edited memories wouldn't remember Dyne as a colleague (she remembered HELMETSHRIKE just fine), just the bit about her having a really good reason to hate us.

Uh.

What.

Says fucking who "she gets suspicious and looks it up, she'll find the truth"? Yeah, ultra-black projects which now formally never happened and were all a part of HELMETSHRIKE all along (which is also incredibly highly classified) aren't something you can just find with a few research rolls, you know? And given that Jamelia never found out herself in decades - yeah, I'm calling bullshit on "she'll find the truth". How would you tell Jamelia's actions not-knowing from her actions if she was denying her failures and being super-hard-working and loyal to try to make up for her failure and hide her past? It's not like finding out things about the past of Senior Operatives is easy - the Technocracy sure as hell lies in its own files. Hence why Jamelia is going to all these lengths to try to find it out herself. Plus, uh... you know, this is even assuming that a lot of this ultra-classified data ever existed on earth, rather than being stored in all those Ivory Tower archives in space.

... and we don't actually know the reason she hates us. You're reaching when you assume they hated each other all along, rather than it happening in the post-HELMETSHRIKE mess.

And, you know, for that matter why do you assume she knows the truth rather than having her own redacted version? Hypothetically, if I was trying to cover up something like this, it might even be more effective to implant different false memories in each survivor, as to veil the past under layers and layers of obfuscation. ~nwo~
 
[X] Bluff her
->[X] Just walk away.

Do not get into discussions with someone who hates us over something we don't remember when we want to keep it quiet that we're aware there is something we don't remember in regards to a super secret technocratic operation.
 
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... and we don't actually know the reason she hates us. You're reaching when you assume they hated each other all along, rather than it happening in the post-HELMETSHRIKE mess.

When did I imply that? o_O

And, you know, for that matter why do you assume she knows the truth rather than having her own redacted version? Hypothetically, if I was trying to cover up something like this, it might even be more effective to implant different false memories in each survivor, as to veil the past under layers and layers of obfuscation. ~nwo~

That was going to be an issue no matter what, though.
 
I'd also just like to point out that the memory editing wasn't stupid and didn't leave obvious wide discrepancies to be noticed by someone who wasn't there in person. It passes against anyone with the HELMETSHRIKE (rather than Vigilance) level of knowledge. To realise the bits about the end of HELMETSHRIKE she's missing, you'd have to know that she and Starling were at it like bunnies (which they were hardly obvious about), and that she went AWOL while having a nervous breakdown (even harder to notice, because Operatives vanish off on missions all the time).

Jamelia always knew she'd fucked up and trusted Silent Starling when she shouldn't have, which led to her getting betrayed and dragged towards a Caul. She might not have remembered that she loved him, but she did trust him as a teammate. Likewise, she knew she was a wreck after that betrayal, so that's why she volunteered for IB.

"That was not a joke, Agent Belltower. Why are you so sure that certainty gets you killed?"

"You're part of my mind," Jamelia hisses. "You know why."

"I know I know, and I know you know. But I will have you admit it."

"Because certainty means you wind up being dragged towards a Labyrinth by someone you trusted! Because you believed them when they said they had orders!" Jamelia snaps, forcing out the words. The lights in the room blow all at once, shattering glass down on the ground. "Because if you don't accept you could be wrong, then… then… then…"

"Silent Starling betrays you," her younger self says.

"That bastard. He betrayed the Union. He betrayed us!

"He betrayed you. And so you said yes to INVISIBLE BEAR. To try to seal away the pain. You asked for it."

"I needed to be better! I had to stop something like that ever happening again! And it worked! When people betrayed me since then, I've been ready for them!"

"It tore your team apart. You all have your scars. Furious Ratel has never commanded an amalgam since, and has a problem with authority. Screaming Owl is a washed up embarrassment the Union pretends it never sanctioned, half-crazed by voices and filled with regrets over his daughter. Cunning Squid committed suicide in the eighties. Prowling Wolf defected. And then there's you."

"Your point is?" Jamelia hisses. "I know this. This isn't some profound revelation."

"I wished for you to think about it. And now you are thinking." Her younger self claps. "Bravo, Agent Belltower. I think we've made excellent progress today," she said as she steps through the window, and vanishes.

(Also, lol at how early it was being foreshadowed that it was... quite personal with Starling, from the mouth of Jamevatar).

When did I imply that? o_O

As far as we know, they didn't interact at all post-end-of-the-'Shrikes. If it wasn't something already there, how would Jamelia know she genuinely hated her and then have it removed?

If she gets suspicious and looks it up, she'll find the truth; we had our memories edited, we genuinely forgot she hated us,
 
I'd also just like to point out that the memory editing wasn't stupid and didn't leave obvious wide discrepancies to be noticed by someone who wasn't there in person.

Ah, fair enough. That is a pretty important point.

As far as we know, they didn't interact at all post-end-of-the-'Shrikes. If it wasn't something already there, how would Jamelia know she genuinely hated her and then have it removed?

From the most recent update, I got the impression that Jamelia wasn't quite expecting so much animosity, but I may be reading into it wrongly.

The more time we spend around Dyne, the more chance she has of deducing the memory editing.

Just because we don't tell her doesn't mean she can't notice.

I just want to point out that if Dyne can work it out, it's not necessarily a bad thing because it's not like it would tell Threat Null anything they don't already know and Dyne might also point out what's missing from our memories.

Really, I'd just have Jamelia play dumb and act as though she hasn't remembered any of her expunged memories.
 
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I just want to point out that if Dyne can work it out, it's not necessarily a bad thing because it's not like it would tell Threat Null anything they don't already know and Dyne might also point out what we're missing.

Really, I'd just have Jamelia play dumb and act as though she hasn't remembered any of her expunged memories.
Threat Null knows about the memory edits. Threat Null doesn't know that we know about the memory edits. (Welcome to the NWO! Lord this really is corkscrew thinking.)

So, yes, as Dyne hates Jamelia and would be entirely willing to sell her out, Dyne figuring it out is a bad thing.
 
Threat Null knows about the memory edits. Threat Null doesn't know that we know about the memory edits.

So, yes, as Dyne hates Jamelia and would be entirely willing to sell her out, Dyne figuring it out is a bad thing.

Dyne working out that Jamelia has had her memories edited, and Dyne working out that Jamelia realises that her memory has been edited isn't the same thing.

It's perfectly possible for her to come to the 1st deduction, but not the 2nd.


Harlan was able to deduce that something was up when he talked to Jamelia.
 
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Dyne working out that Jamelia has had her memories edited, and Dyne working out that Jamelia realises that her memory has been edited isn't the same thing.
They technically aren't, but if Jamelia slips enough to give away the memory editing, it's not that big a jump for Dyne to then conclude that pointing out the holes in Jamelia's memory is enough for Jamelia to realize she's gotten memory edits.

So, honestly, they effectively are the same thing in this situation.
 
They technically aren't, but if Jamelia slips enough to give away the memory editing, it's not that big a jump for Dyne to then conclude that pointing out the holes in Jamelia's memory is enough for Jamelia to realize she's gotten memory edits.

So, honestly, they effectively are the same thing in this situation.

I was going to make a post pointing out that there's a difference between Dyne alerting Jamelia to her edited memories, and Dyne realising that Jamelia had already discovered that she had edited memories even before speaking to Dyne, but my brain is getting twisted into knots and confused.



Stupid headache inducing NWO corkscrew thinking *grumbles*
 
I was going to make a post pointing out that there's a difference between Dyne alerting Jamelia to her edited memories, and Dyne realising that Jamelia had already discovered that she had edited memories even before speaking to Dyne, but my brain is getting twisted into knots and confused.

Stupid headache inducing NWO corkscrew thinking *grumbles*
Henriette: "See?! This is what I'm talking about! They make you start thinking sideways! And then it starts making sense!"

Jamelia: ~Gendo Pose~
 
By any chance, is Threat Null so interested in Jamelia because she has an exceptionally powerful impact on the Consensus in-universe?

Like changing Solar Exalted into something else by ignoring them, for example?

No. It is very easy for people in Mage to confuse out of character things with in-character things. Do not do this, because if you do you will very rapidly be confused, and you will become confused in the absolute worst way, one which makes you think you have a lot more power than you actually do.

When a Hermetic casts a fireball and disguises it as a gas main blowing up, they are not creating the gas main. Because the ST is not a No Fun Allowed Guy, there happened to be a gas main close enough to the location that can plausibly blow up. Similarly, when things in the setting shift in response to people's votes, this is not because the world is being changed, it's because the world was always like that and there was no reason to talk about it until it happened.
 
When a Hermetic casts a fireball and disguises it as a gas main blowing up, they are not creating the gas main. Because the ST is not a No Fun Allowed Guy, there happened to be a gas main close enough to the location that can plausibly blow up. Similarly, when things in the setting shift in response to people's votes, this is not because the world is being changed, it's because the world was always like that and there was no reason to talk about it until it happened.

And when there isn't a gas main, there's an explosion which happens to look exactly like a gas main explosion, but is vulgar without witnesses and really confuses the investigators who try to work out what happened here. Which usually only happens if a fact about the scene has already been established - for example, you're in an African village where they don't have mains gas supplies (although, you know, that does mean they probably have bottled gas around).

Incidentally, Technocrats can't do the "gas explosion without gas" [1]. Neither can anyone else whose paradigm doesn't let them make explosions from thin air - for example, the Dreamspeaker can't coax the gas main spirit into becoming a fire spirit by offering it people to burn if there's no gas, but if they have a handy fire spirit as a friend they can persuade them to disguise themselves as a gas main explosion.

[1] Unless they're a NWO superspy who's planted explosives there and is planning to cover up their assassination attempt as a gas explosion (which actually probably gets away with being coincidental, as long as they actually went and stuck some explosives there beforehand). ~nwo~

When a Hermetic casts a fireball and disguises it as a gas main blowing up, they are not creating the gas main. Because the ST is not a No Fun Allowed Guy, there happened to be a gas main close enough to the location that can plausibly blow up. Similarly, when things in the setting shift in response to people's votes, this is not because the world is being changed, it's because the world was always like that and there was no reason to talk about it until it happened.

So does that imply that Beyond the Fields We Know is happening back in the Mythic Age, back when captured princesses could turn into dragons and eat their parents and an entire army without having to worry about mean horrible Paradox? :p
 
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I can't help but think the standard NWO approach to butter agents who want to rant - as established back in yellow fields, might be relevant here. Can we work that in?
 
I can't help but think the standard NWO approach to butter agents who want to rant - as established back in yellow fields, might be relevant here. Can we work that in?
There is a difference between "Butter up agent who want to rant" and "Butter up agents who especially hate your guts". In the latter case, it's probably better to send someone else to butter them up.
 
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