Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
See, I read that, and I just imagine the girl we send over to help them set up RT getting more and more horrified.

Man, no one in outside of the wild is going to believe our deathrate is anything other than propaganda. No wonder they think we're a cult, if they hear us spouting such ridiculous propaganda with such conviction.
 
See, I read that, and I just imagine the girl we send over to help them set up RT getting more and more horrified.

Man, no one in outside of the wild is going to believe our deathrate is anything other than propaganda. No wonder they think we're a cult, if they hear us spouting such ridiculous propaganda with such conviction.
See, I'm sitting here envisioning the dumbfounded skepticism that such a claim causes, and then the eyebrows-passing-hairline realization at how much effort we put into hunting to ensure safety. "And you say you can afford to let these girls still go to school?"
 
"And you say you can afford to let these girls still go to school?"
Which is, ironically, exactly why we can afford to do that. They're keeping up on their education, gaining the foundation to do all this crazy math and analysis.

If a group is all dropouts, their ability to develop in these directions is pretty much non-existent. Their ability to research stuff is going to be significantly hindered. Their ability to adapt our techniques, even when provided directly to them, is going to be kinda weak.
 
If they're not quite as heavily invested in hunter safety (ie: no cell phones or shields, but all the rest of our normal training, full kevlar, plus dispatch), their casualty reduction for solos is 6%. If they hunt to exactly DS 0, that gives them a 3% casualty rate per month, which is 1.275 deaths per month. Elites are well below 0% casualty rates.
Wait, why would they skimp on cheap stuff like cell phones and shields, but then equip them with $1600 each worth of armor? Frankly I think a rich group like theirs apparently is wouldn't have any problems springing for all the armor they can afford; after all, they can always give the dead girl's armor to the next girl, and thanks to the Law of Cycles it won't even require cleaning. How convenient!

No, where a group like this will look for savings is training, since they'd have to be continually re-doing it every time they cycled in enough new people for it to degrade, and they need those new people gathering cubes, not practicing at gathering cubes. If they're not gathering cubes, then the girls will be gathering money, legally or illegally, which would explain why the group is so rich.

  • Basic General Combat Training: -2% Casualties (May decay with losses or recruitment).
  • Basic Solo Combat Training: -1% Pack Hunting, -2% pair hunting, -3% Solo Hunting
  • Defending Others Training: -2% Pair Hunting, -1% Pack Hunting
  • Pack Tactics Training: -4% pack hunting, -2% pair hunting
  • PvP training: Still terrible, but slightly less so +2% PvP effectiveness
  • Experienced Hunters +10% grief cube gather rates
  • Tandem trained
    - Healer: 2
    - Teleporter: 5+Seto
    - Stealth: 2+Kyoko
    - Clairvoyant: 3+Taya
    - Barrier: 11
This stuff? The hunters (other than the Elites) and the jobbers won't have any of it. Notably this includes the PvP training; I envision the Elites are the only ones with "luxuries" like PvP training, or hell even basic combat training, which ironically probably means that it takes longer to actually get the bonuses because by the time the girls become Elites they'll have months or years worth of ingrained bad habits that they'll need to unlearn, like telegraphing their moves or leaving themselves open when making an attack, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to find it takes 2-3 times as long to train their girls at even the "basic" combat tactics we employ.

The big question, though, is how many girls are becoming Elites, because that's the group we'll likely see mobilized for anti-Class 3 duties. Going through a crucible as described above will kill off greens by the truckload, and a decent number of vets besides. We know from Taya and Kaoru that the way you qualify for possible Elite status is by rolling really well in an individual hunt (was it a nat 100? Maybe more than one?), and it's likely that the moment that something like that happens the girl is immediately taken off the hunting rotation and thrown into a Rising Stars action for three months (along with having their spiral allocation upped to 2, maybe 4, while they're being trained). Given that we've had 2 of our vets show up with a spark, Nagoya has probably gone through five times as many vets, thanks to turnover, so call it 10. 34% of those (70%^3) will wash out of Elite school, so that's 6-7 extra Elites, in addition to however many they started with.

So, 6-7 Elites, plus maybe 10-15 original founding Elites (we had 3 in our area, and Nagoya is four times our size), minus the ones lost to Nagoya's own Class 3 apocalypse, plus any Tokyo expats (call that a wash?), for an estimated 16-22 highly-trained Elites in Nagoya.
 
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Well, yes and no. Yes, we corner the market because we're literally the only ones selling it. No, because there is no way in hell we could actually supply the full market demand on our own.

Basically, cornering the market on this is stupid unless we intend to specialize in it, which we won't. On the other hand, the process is valuable in and of itself, so it would be good for somebody to work on it. However most groups will not be that 'somebody' for the same reason we wont — it requires too much dedication of specific manpower, forcing you to give up on a bunch of other things you want to do.

So it needs to float around until it fights the right 'somebody' to latch on and become the supplier.
Note that Serena's group would be ideally suited for this sort of thing (when not hunting Class 3s) because they can't hunt, but the magic they do costs less than normal so they could produce anchors cheaper than anybody else. On the other hand, they can only make healing and barrier anchors at the moment, and those cannot be tandem-cast. And Serena's girls might be more useful at the moment for doing research at a lower GCU cost. But it might be worth considering later on, especially after Serena's group has expanded to pick up some girls who otherwise would have died to grief spirals.

Which is, ironically, exactly why we can afford to do that. They're keeping up on their education, gaining the foundation to do all this crazy math and analysis.
Additionally, all of our girls will at least try to pay attention in math class. There will be none of those pansy "how is this ever going to be useful in the real world?" excuses when they have daily experience that math saves lives.
 
I'll admit I wasn't expecting much in the way of magitech or specialized magic or whatever, but more of a general set of anti-Class 3 tactics. Frankly I sort of assumed that Nagoya agreeing to this deal was with the specific goal of doing basically the same thing we're doing with the Coalition this turn by "renting" hunters at a loss: just like we're giving the Coalition hunting techniques both to stabilize them and improve relations, Nagoya is giving us anti-Class 3 tactics because they believe that they can recruit us to help them with their crusade against Tokyo's Class 3s.
Not to mention, is there really an effective way to research class 3 tactics other than observing class 3's fighting? Perhaps PowerOfMind's simulation idea, but we'd still need the simulator to have seen class 3's in action.

OK, can see that.


Hmmm. 'Serene' is a name for an individual. 'The Serene' is a name for an organization. Let's try some examples.

... appeared behind United States' President...
... appeared behind the United States' President... ✓
... appeared behind England's Queen... ✓
... appeared behind the England's Queen...
... appeared behind Hancock Bank's president... ✓
... appeared behind the bank's president... ✓

So there are options on either side.

I think if you used the full name, or even Serenissima, it would not need a 'the'. However 'Serene' is enough of a contraction that it's no longer quite the same thing, and falls under the same thing as the transition from "Hancock Bank" to "the bank". Or rather, from country name to citizen name. Basically, you would not refer to the organization as "Serene", but rather, "the Serenes", because it becomes a label for the members, not a name of the organization itself. EG:

... appeared behind Germany's President... ✓
... appeared behind the Germany's President...
... appeared behind Germans' President...
... appeared behind the Germans' President... ✓


Sorry for the side trip into grammar.
You just gave me a very large number of hilarious and disturbing mental images. I am currently stuck on the image of Magical Barack Obama threatening someone with a Tiro Finale.
 
Oh, other considerations: corruption, criminality and cube costs!

@Kinematics has Nagoya hunting as solos, only transitioning to pairs for RT farming, and they likely don't have the infrastructure to monitor DS to a 0.1 level. That's a situation ripe for abuse, especially considering that under this concept the cube hunter will be considered either the lowest or second-lowest caste (jobbers could be lower, in fact they probably are lower, including "sticks" like not being allocated any cubes for spirals, as it would be the only way to "encourage" girls to move into the more deadly hunting groups). I would be very surprised if Nagoya loses less than 5% of its monthly harvest--it's probably closer to 8-10%--to hunters putting aside a nest egg, with the hope of one day squirreling away a whole extra GCU, to possibly counter a 2-cube spiral should they have one.

Then there's legal/illegal money gathering. Given the lack of attention to paperwork (teenage dropouts, after all), Nagoya probably does something simple like paying its jobbers 1 cube for every $1000 she brings in, which means that gathering money legally will never get a cube buffer for spirals, unless you luck into a good job like our Hainako did. That means that gathering money illegally will be preferred by the girls tasked with it, because you can get enough to live on faster, and many of the jobbers will be competing to be allowed onto a hunting rotation, because Nagoya will pay for 1-cube spirals for its hunters. Now, not being idiots, we all know what "Gather money illegally" is actually going to mean for girls just entering teen ages, especially given that the age of consent in Japan until recently was 14, but let's ignore that and assume they're picking pockets or knocking over liquor stores or something instead. That's worth $2000 a month per meguca, more for those who have lucked into a good gig somewhere, except they're likely picking up police attention every few months and have to pay Kyubey to take the heat off. That 35-cube penalty we had to pay awhile back is probably an every 2-4 month occurrence for them.

The combination of paying off Kyubey and monthly corruption losses (which eventually become permanent losses when the hoarding girls die, leaving their hidden caches to eventually cook off into demons) would explain why Nagoya was willing to pay $5000 for a cube a month ago, despite their huge territory and being willing to lose so much of their population to spirals every month rather than pay the cubes to keep them around.

There was another thing I was thinking about: morale stratification. I've been going on about how Nagoya probably has a morale of near-0, while @inverted_helix counters that people can get used to bad circumstances. Well, that's true, but at the lower levels of Nagoya's caste system there isn't going to be time to get used to such conditions, because the girls die too fast for that: they'll either become part of the upper levels or eventually die off. On the upper levels, however, the Elite hunting group probably has a 2-3 Morale, since they are valued and thus life will be better for them than it is for the 0-1 hunting greens/vets or the 1-2 jobbers, and the ruling caste (like the diplomat that we've been dealing with, who may not be an Elite but just a Vet with useful skills) is probably looking at Morale 4-5.
 
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Oh, other considerations: corruption, criminality and cube costs!

@Kinematics has Nagoya hunting as solos, only transitioning to pairs for RT farming, and they likely don't have the infrastructure to monitor DS to a 0.1 level. That's a situation ripe for abuse, especially considering that under this concept the cube hunter will be considered either the lowest or second-lowest caste (jobbers could be lower, in fact they probably are lower, including "sticks" like not being allocated any cubes for spirals, as it would be the only way to "encourage" girls to move into the more deadly hunting groups). I would be very surprised if Nagoya loses less than 5% of its monthly harvest--it's probably closer to 8-10%--to hunters putting aside a nest egg, with the hope of one day squirreling away a whole extra GCU, to possibly counter a 2-cube spiral should they have one.

Then there's legal/illegal money gathering. Given the lack of attention to paperwork (teenage dropouts, after all), Nagoya probably does something simple like paying its jobbers 1 cube for every $1000 she brings in, which means that gathering money legally will never get a cube buffer for spirals, and gathering money illegally will be preferred by the girls tasked with it, and many of the jobbers will be competing to be allowed onto a hunting rotation, because Nagoya will pay for 1-cube spirals for its hunters. Now, not being idiots, we all know what "Gather money illegally" is actually going to mean for girls just entering teen ages, especially given that the age of consent in Japan until recently was 14, but let's ignore that and assume they're picking pockets or knocking over liquor stores or something instead. That's worth $2000 a month per meguca, more for those who have lucked into a good gig somewhere, except they're likely picking up police attention every few months and have to pay Kyubey to take the heat off. That 35-cube penalty we had to pay awhile back is probably an every 2-4 month occurrence for them.

The combination of paying off Kyubey and monthly corruption losses (which eventually become permanent losses when the hoarding girls die, leaving their hidden caches to eventually cook off into demons) would explain why Nagoya was willing to pay $5000 for a cube a month ago, despite their huge territory. and being willing to lose so much of their population to spirals every month rather than pay the cubes to keep them around.

There was another thing I was thinking about: morale stratification. I've been going on about how Nagoya probably has a morale of near-0, while @inverted_helix counters that people can get used to bad circumstances. Well, that's true, but at the lower levels of Nagoya's caste system there isn't going to be time to get used to such conditions, because the girls die too fast for that: they'll either become part of the upper levels or eventually die off. On the upper levels, however, the Elite hunting group probably has a 2-3 Morale, since they are valued and thus life will be better for them than it is for the 0-1 hunting greens/vets or the 1-2 jobbers, and the ruling caste (like the diplomat that we've been dealing with, who may not be an Elite but just a Vet with useful skills) is probably looking at Morale 4-5.
Keep in mind that the 35 cube thing was partially because the knowledge was allowed to spread, necessitating far more mindwipes.
 
Sorry for the side trip into grammar.

Side-trips into Grammarville is totally my thing.

Only wish I was better at it. :I

Gold ribbons and muskets appeared behind the Serene leader

I considered this, but the fact that Mami was actually quite peeved made me reassess, because Serene is a genuine adjective which would make for a weird juxtaposition of ideas. I'm definitely going to use it at some future point when she's calm and negotiating with another big group though.
 
Wait, why would they skimp on cheap stuff like cell phones and shields, but then equip them with $1600 each worth of armor? Frankly I think a rich group like theirs apparently is wouldn't have any problems springing for all the armor they can afford; after all, they can always give the dead girl's armor to the next girl, and thanks to the Law of Cycles it won't even require cleaning. How convenient!

Generally, if your group is very rich, it didn't get that way by being generous. From our perspective this is odd, but it's the same thing as a multi-million dollar factory with the latest equipment having zero in the way of employee safety when all you really needed was a guardrail and better stairs. You need a great deal of pressure to begin spending that money if what is conserved is considered almost worthless (i.e. meguca lives). I'd say it's a bit of a toss-up whether they have all the little extras or not.

If they do, we know that they are probably good-ish people.

There was another thing I was thinking about: morale stratification. I've been going on about how Nagoya probably has a morale of near-0, while @inverted_helix counters that people can get used to bad circumstances. Well, that's true, but at the lower levels of Nagoya's caste system there isn't going to be time to get used to such conditions, because the girls die too fast for that: they'll either become part of the upper levels or eventually die off. On the upper levels, however, the Elite hunting group probably has a 2-3 Morale, since they are valued and thus life will be better for them than it is for the 0-1 hunting greens/vets or the 1-2 jobbers, and the ruling caste (like the diplomat that we've been dealing with, who may not be an Elite but just a Vet with useful skills) is probably looking at Morale 4-5.

This sounds reasonable. Basically, gang leaders being content, grunts being generally unhappy.

Keep in mind that the 35 cube thing was partially because the knowledge was allowed to spread, necessitating far more mindwipes.

It was also a one-off thing. The more common the occurrences, the more likely Kyuubey will start offering group discounts or deals. For example, the Tokyo trips could have easily been negotiated into a 'if you send X girls into Tokyo each month to do X amount of support, we will take care of Y threshold level of masquerade breaking activity, with penalties if we need to perform more than Y mindwipes.'

I could see them having already negotiated some sort of contract like that. We probably shouldn't consider our experience with Kyuubey typical, they are creepy little cat foxes that like to micro-manage.
 
It was also a one-off thing. The more common the occurrences, the more likely Kyuubey will start offering group discounts or deals. For example, the Tokyo trips could have easily been negotiated into a 'if you send X girls into Tokyo each month to do X amount of support, we will take care of Y threshold level of masquerade breaking activity, with penalties if we need to perform more than Y mindwipes.'

I could see them having already negotiated some sort of contract like that. We probably shouldn't consider our experience with Kyuubey typical, they are creepy little cat foxes that like to micro-manage.
Well, the purpose of the cube bounty is to discourage masquerade violation, so this seems counterproductive.
 
Well, the purpose of the cube bounty is to discourage masquerade violation, so this seems counterproductive.

Was it? I've been operating on the assumption that Class 3 bounties were an effort to maintain the delicate balance between demon-human-meguca populations.

Are you saying that their group is going into Tokyo without getting any bounties out of it?
 
Pretty sure racnor is talking about the 35-cube penalty, not the Class 3 cube bounty, or the way Kyubey is probably willing to make some more unusual deals in order to prevent losing thousands of cubes' productivity in Tokyo.
 
Oh, well, in that case it's a matter of trade-offs. Does the only major organization in Japan willing to confront Tokyo deserve a few carrots in the form of masquerade aid? Probably. We have to assume that it's all about managing risk. If Kyuubey did not help them maintain the masquerade at all, they would have no incentive to play ball. But if the meguca in Nagoya are given rewards to stay within certain limits, it's likely that Kyuubey will help them on that end if they get help in return (vis-a-vis Tokyo).

It will become very interesting if Tokyo is saved and the agreement is adjusted.

Edit: Now I really want to know what dossiers the Incubators have on us and then I want a dossier on a different group (it can be on the other side of the world, so long as it's accurate) as a basis for comparison. But information is power and I don't think they'd be willing to hand out dossiers on other groups.

But our own dossier... hm... maybe it's like looking your own name up on Google, but it'd be nice to have an accurate, unbiased summary of our efforts from the Incubator perspective.
 
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I'll weigh in on this speculation and say that it's horribly inaccurate.

I'm sure the math is impeccable as ever, but a lot of the underlying assumptions are flawed.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Nagoya is much less evil than assumed. If they were that bad, they'd have fallen apart to infighting by now. We probably do have a morale advantage over them.
 
As much as I'd love to see Kyuubey's dossier on us, Helix is too busy writing the rest of the update.
 
Perhaps the key is to remembering it's a 4 group amalgamation. Even if the merger was relatively painless, it probably means that they had 4 different sets of advantages and disadvantages that they figured out how to weld together.

Why did we start assuming that they were a - in large part, anyway - criminal enterprise again?

As much as I'd love to see Kyuubey's dossier on us, Helix is too busy writing the rest of the update.

I'm pretty sure we would have to bribe them with cubes so it wouldn't be happening soon regardless of my wishes. :V
 
I'll weigh in on this speculation and say that it's horribly inaccurate.

I'm sure the math is impeccable as ever, but a lot of the underlying assumptions are flawed.
What could... oh, I know one bit that's definitely inaccurate:

If they're not quite as heavily invested in hunter safety (ie: no cell phones or shields, but all the rest of our normal training, full kevlar, plus dispatch), their casualty reduction for solos is 6%. If they hunt to exactly DS 0, that gives them a 3% casualty rate per month, which is 1.275 deaths per month. Elites are well below 0% casualty rates.
If you're not doing something like RT, there's no reason to stick to DS 0. You can go down to DS -10 and then you're back to nobody dies at hunting, even greens.

Interestingly, if you do that then you're left with hunters that cannot possibly be gaining experience as quickly as our do, since they're used to running around and rolling over sluggish weaksauce demons month after month, so greens growing under these conditions probably take as long to become vets as ours do.

Why did we start assuming that they were a - in large part, anyway - criminal enterprise again?
They are filthy stinking rich.
That and the XCom mentality and its attendant focus on logistics over individual achievement. We keep looking for people like Akane, Hainako or now Nagisa who can individually make money through individual distinctions, whereas the XCom mentality says that 2,000 > 1,000 so get out there and pick pockets.
 
Interestingly, if you do that then you're left with hunters that cannot possibly be gaining experience as quickly as our do, since they're used to running around and rolling over sluggish weaksauce demons month after month, so greens growing under these conditions probably take as long to become vets as ours do.
Negative demon strength has morale penalties of an unknown size, but we do know that below -10 starts to cause suicides in normal humans, which implies a pretty massive penalty. The increase in spiral rate would probably offset the gains in hunting.
 
Negative demon strength has morale penalties of an unknown size, but we do know that below -10 starts to cause suicides in normal humans, which implies a pretty massive penalty. The increase in spiral rate would probably offset the gains in hunting.
More importantly, DS drops at a quarter of the rate when going below 0. Which would make the RT gains pointless.
 
Negative demon strength has morale penalties of an unknown size, but we do know that below -10 starts to cause suicides in normal humans, which implies a pretty massive penalty. The increase in spiral rate would probably offset the gains in hunting.
So something to explain here:

Demons of any sort affect human emotions to some degree.
Part of the basic benefits of being a soul gem instead of a squishy human is that every magical girl is mostly immune to this effect. They can sense that it exists through their magical senses, but it doesn't really affect them. It's like a bad smell to them kind of, you don't notice it if you live there for a while.
One of the things that makes Class 3 demons special is that part of their adaptations for dealing with magical girls is that they can penetrate their immunity and negatively impact magical girl emotions.
 
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If they are conservative on cube usage, and only allow 1 cube on spirals, they will likely have 11 to 14 deaths per month from spirals (assuming a total population of 350 meguca), at 1 to 2 morale. At 2 cubes, that becomes 5 to 7. That's a cost of 22 to 28 cubes per month when using 1 cube, or 33 to 42 cubes when using 2.
That seems unlikely. They're currently willing to pay quite a bit for cubes to give to the Tokyo girls without getting very much in return, I doubt they'd be unwilling to spend 4 cubes to keep someone alive even if they're just an average member. I'd instead expect them to be willing to demand the people go into cold storage when they feel there aren't enough cubes to properly support everyone, which wouldn't have nearly the same morale impact as that many deaths per month and might actually drive the group closer together.
 
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