Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
I love the omake @Kinematics. The bit where they think Hisa is a cult fanatic is a great touch. Of course, eventually they'll realize we don't actually have a theology.


Edit:

And ninja'd by an excellent Omake from FixerUpper.
 
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Except I didn't. I specifically quoted your concluding line and pointed out that it is objectively false. I merely broke it into it's own quote so I could emphasize how wrong it is.

Expect this still ignores the key aspect here: Nagoya did not talk to us. They choose violence over diplomacy.

This is fact. And you ignore as unimportant.

You continually twist your analogy into a way so that you can ignore the fact that the whole conflict could have been avoided if the Nagoya group had just asked us what we were doing instead of attacking us.
"Objectively wrong"?

"Objectively"?
Oh my good god.

You have some screwed up conviction that a group of Puella Magi seeing another about to generate Class 3 demons using "shoot first ask questions later" is "objectively wrong". No.

No it is not. End of question.

Meanwhile in your crusade to make yourself feel right you have said that I'm downplaying the importance of Nagoya choosing to shoot first.

No I am not, you are overplaying it. Nagoya aimed to immediately stop the hunt and then choose to talk later to the gems of our two Puella Magi. This is the objectively correct course of when the first priority is to prevent Class-3 manifestation.
No. Diplomacy requires self-interest and rationality. Which you are then calling trust, when that is the wrong word. My objection is that you are using the loaded word "trust" to apply some kind of morality to Nagoya. That is what I am objecting to.

Apparently you think it's impossible to exercise diplomacy with Nagoya without also accepting them as good and moral. I am arguing that is irrelevant.
Nonsense. Stop reading implications that aren't there and then saying "Aha, gotcha!". You might as post post pictures of red herrings in lieu.
At no point did I accuse you of arguing against gaining more Puella Magi. Where are you even getting this?
What's this then?
The implication you are presenting here is that we can only maintain peace through strength. Since we have to continue to make it in Nagoya's self-interest to co-operate with us. Which... is my position.

I'm accusing you of victim blaming and moral equivalency that is false in nature, and asking you to knock it off because it's irritating and because it's misleading to say we can trust Nagoya, when we clearly can't. You can't trust the ultimate pragmatist, because if it becomes pragmatic to betray us then they will. Thus we must base our relationship with Nagoya not on trust but on maintaining sufficient power to avoid it ever being pragmatic for them to betray us.

Why is this so hard to understand?
Hahaha.
Again, I trust Nagoya to act rational.
It will never be rational for Nagoya to enter unprovoked open conflict against SIMP.
Ergo, Nagoya will not enter open conflict with SIMP.

There is no victim blaming going on here as there is no victim. Quite literally, "He is not violent, he only hits me for a good reason" is justified. Before you blow up in moral outrage here, again, remember what the 'victim' is perceived to be doing here.

Lastly, the thread does not revolve around you Haman, I originally used this argument against speculation that we will be entering conflict with one another. Somehow, you managed to literally re-iterated my argument, shift the goalposts to argue about something else that I have no interest in arguing about, then when I continue my original argument, you accuse me of being unable understand. I suppose that is a good debating tactic though.

No. My arguments are:

1: Nagoya attacked without prior warning, therefore they do not use diplomacy before resorting to violence.
2: We must be cautious in our relationship with Nagoya not to give them sufficient incentives that make violence attractive, because we will receive no warning before being attacked.

1: Nagoya values pragmatism far above other moral values, thus they cannot be trusted.
2: Nagoya will not hold to any agreements unless it is in their best interest to continue into doing so.
3: Us maintaining a sufficient size to make violence against their best interest is essential
1: Agree.
2: Given premise, no additional action needs to be taken.

2.1: Disagree. They can be trusted to act pragmatic and rational.
2.2: Agree,
3: Agree.

This is where we disagree. I would put it this way:

1: Nagoya attacked us without provocation based on their previous experience with others instead of the facts.
1.1: SIMP has previously attacked another group for good reason, because they attacked us without provocation.
1.2: We expect people to trust SIMP not to attack people without provocation.
1.3: We should not extend the same trust to Nagoya, because they don't deserve it, because we know that they attack people without provocation.

Nagoya makes their decisions on violence based on what is pragmatic, not based on notions of provocation or codes of conduct.
1: Agree.
1.1: Agree.
1.2: Agree.
1.3: Disagree. Provocation was clear. Creation of environment for spawning of class 3 demon clear and present danger to NM raison d'etre.
Everything, since apparently you can't understand that I favor diplomatic relations with Nagoya. In fact, I was the one that persuaded people to enter into trade relations with Nagoya right after they attacked us. Because it was the rational thing to do.

I just don't trust them. And I don't like them.

Why you think those are mutually exclusive positions I do not understand.
I well understand, I am not even arguing against that. To refresh, you entered argument with me with the starting premise of;
"1: Nagoya values pragmatism far above other moral values, thus they cannot be trusted."

This is wrong.

That is the disagreement.
 
This is an interesting sentiment. It's a common stance among certain types of people, yet in the world of serious diplomacy, favors are the ultimate currency.

Owing favors is not a bad thing, as long as you work on getting favors owed to you in turn. Mami and the Serenissima are heavily diplomatic, not corporate, so it would be strange for them not to trade in favors.

Well... I think that is a limited assessment of the types of diplomacy.

There certainly is a diplomatic school of thought that "soft power" such as "favors" is the approach to diplomacy.

But there is also the "hard" diplomacy approach which treats diplomacy as primarily trying to find ways to explicitly align countries interest.

Bismark was probably the best practitioner of "soft diplomacy" that I can think of.

Great Britain through most of its history as the balancer of Europe used primarily "hard diplomacy". (Balancers usually do, since they switch sides a lot). But has switched to a soft diplomacy style vis vi the United States with its "special relationship."

Personally I prefer hard diplomacy, because my feeling is that when push comes to shove, soft favors count for nothing against the raw self interest of a participant. In a world where winning means the other person loses, hard diplomacy has a better chance of success than soft diplomacy. Unfortunately I feel that PMMM is such a world.

Also, from a more meta view, soft diplomacy places a lot more pressure on the GM to correctly interpret those owed favors. While hard diplomacy makes the trade off more explicit and thus easier for the GM to track.

Plus it's not like the real world where you can read facial expressions and behavior to understand what people are thinking but not saying. Expecting but not asking for. And that's part of a favor based relationship. We'd be putting a burden on helix to subtly hint to us about things like this, and we don't have the best track record on picking up on that subtlety.

Luckily it's Mami doing the negotiating. :)

Not worried about Mami. Worried about Nagoya following it.

Oh, also, aside from diplomacy in general, have you ever watched the series, Neverwhere? It's a British TV series (and also novelization) by Neil Gaiman. Within the fantasy world of London Underground, the primary (only?) currency is favors. It's a world explicitly outside of modern corporate normalcy, and I suppose has a moderately strong influence on how I view such things.

No. But I've read novels with a similar concept. Split Infinity. Others.

I get that it can work. I just feel that it's a bit much to try and introduce, and there are both meta and in world reasons to think it's safer to stick with explicit quid pro quo. There are already enough additional subtle undercurrents without adding unspoken favor debts on top of it.
 
Going to quickly echo @Aranfan. I do have to wonder how good Nagoya can be with our hunting tech if they haven't been directly trained by us though, @Kinematics makes us feel amazingly experienced which is only just. I feel that at that level of expertise we've basically given them a manual on how to play the violin and expect them to instantly master it when they've mostly been focused on like the piano. The notes might be the same, but the technique is completely different. There are a lot of moving parts here.

I think we can consider offering Nagoya to train up some of their vets in our techniques if they're struggling with any of our research notes because this isn't the sort of thing you get proficient at overnight. If Tokyo weren't in the way, we might want to consider an exchange program type thing.
 
"Objectively wrong"?

"Objectively"?
Oh my good god.

You have some screwed up conviction that a group of Puella Magi seeing another about to generate Class 3 demons using "shoot first ask questions later" is "objectively wrong". No.

No it is not. End of question.

Meanwhile in your crusade to make yourself feel right you have said that I'm downplaying the importance of Nagoya choosing to shoot first.

No I am not, you are overplaying it. Nagoya aimed to immediately stop the hunt and then choose to talk later to the gems of our two Puella Magi. This is the objectively correct course of when the first priority is to prevent Class-3 manifestation.

Nonsense. Stop reading implications that aren't there and then saying "Aha, gotcha!". You might as post post pictures of red herrings in lieu.

What's this then?



Hahaha.
Again, I trust Nagoya to act rational.
It will never be rational for Nagoya to enter unprovoked open conflict against SIMP.
Ergo, Nagoya will not enter open conflict with SIMP.

There is no victim blaming going on here as there is no victim. Quite literally, "He is not violent, he only hits me for a good reason" is justified. Before you blow up in moral outrage here, again, remember what the 'victim' is perceived to be doing here.

Lastly, the thread does not revolve around you Haman, I originally used this argument against speculation that we will be entering conflict with one another. Somehow, you managed to literally re-iterated my argument, shift the goalposts to argue about something else that I have no interest in arguing about, then when I continue my original argument, you accuse me of being unable understand. I suppose that is a good debating tactic though.


1: Agree.
2: Given premise, no additional action needs to be taken.

2.1: Disagree. They can be trusted to act pragmatic and rational.
2.2: Agree,
3: Agree.


1: Agree.
1.1: Agree.
1.2: Agree.
1.3: Disagree. Provocation was clear. Creation of environment for spawning of class 3 demon clear and present danger to NM raison d'etre.

I well understand, I am not even arguing against that. To refresh, you entered argument with me with the starting premise of;
"1: Nagoya values pragmatism far above other moral values, thus they cannot be trusted."

This is wrong.

That is the disagreement.

I'm rubber you're glue.

Seriously, you are suffering from some massive projection here.

At this point I'm going to ignore you.
 
I certainly do, amazing as ever.
Of course, eventually they'll realize we don't actually have a theology.
You don't?



Also that omake by Kinematics really highlights how absurd the idea that you don't have a full time job worth of paperwork is. A lot of omake and even references in my own writing demonstrate that your group spends an inordinate amount of time analyzing the tiniest of details, and that all translates into time spent. Most groups you encounter are still measuring demon strength as average/above average/strong, or possibly to 1% and counting that as good enough. You guys analyze to .1% and that takes manpower.

Oddly still hung up on when Haman questioned me on the "paperpushing" upkeep cost despite there being like 3 different arguments since then.
 
Also, on the topic of Nobody Dies, I am now imagining that if we send a girl over to help teach Nagoya how to do RT Crop Rotation then she would be aghast at them when they opine that not being hardline about no casualty chance will give them better manpower returns. Because nobody has to die, and they boggle at the sheer naivety of the girl who was going into such depth regarding how to best kill demons for maximum cube return.
 
Agreeing on all these points. The tandem casting research allows us to corner the market on the trade good of tandem anchors, and unlike hunting research, withholding it is not condemning large numbers of people to spiral and death.

And the tech deal is indeed excessively subtle. The risk of NM missing those messages and just seeing it as a bad trade is high.
Probably not. I mean, there's 200+ girls in the Mageocracy, so you'd expect at least the one assigned as a diplomat to understand Politics 101. As @inverted_helix already said, the Anchoring tech trade was not a flat-out mistake on their part (which was the other possibility), but a way to pay reparations without looking like they were paying reparations, so someone over there is obviously either reasonably intuitive about these things (as you'd expect from girls; this is all based on the same sort of social maneuvering that girls learn to do in childhood, while boys are busy playing sports and running around like wild monkeys) or has decent enough diplomatic chops to pull it off.

Even if they don't immediately get it, they will when we talk about paying them for the techniques we were already given the opportunity to "spy on" this month.

In this case it's less you, and more TheEyes I suppose. And I'm referring more to anything else that I could have them be using. For instance I've got a few ideas on things for them to have some even things you've been wanting to get around to researching but haven't yet, but I'm kind of fiddling around with them before I roll them out.
I'll admit I wasn't expecting much in the way of magitech or specialized magic or whatever, but more of a general set of anti-Class 3 tactics. Frankly I sort of assumed that Nagoya agreeing to this deal was with the specific goal of doing basically the same thing we're doing with the Coalition this turn by "renting" hunters at a loss: just like we're giving the Coalition hunting techniques both to stabilize them and improve relations, Nagoya is giving us anti-Class 3 tactics because they believe that they can recruit us to help them with their crusade against Tokyo's Class 3s.

Kind of embarrassed myself in detail work by saying they didn't know how big the beholder's aura is before realizing how they could map its presence with teleport charms. It's something I only thought of after I wrote that section. Sometimes I miss details like that.
Maybe it's erratic, or uncertain, like 100% failure rate inside of 1 km and slowly tapering down to 5% failure rate at 5 km, but the Mageocracy doesn't have our obsession with documentation and numbers so they only have anecdotal information, rather than the full stochastic model based on Monte Carlo algorithms that the Serene quants would put out. Heh, maybe Kyouko's assistant will ask for the raw data for our group to number-crunch. :D

Also that omake by Kinematics really highlights how absurd the idea that you don't have a full time job worth of paperwork is. A lot of omake and even references in my own writing demonstrate that your group spends an inordinate amount of time analyzing the tiniest of details, and that all translates into time spent. Most groups you encounter are still measuring demon strength as average/above average/strong, or possibly to 1% and counting that as good enough. You guys analyze to .1% and that takes manpower.

Oddly still hung up on when Haman questioned me on the "paperpushing" upkeep cost despite there being like 3 different arguments since then.
All of what was highlighted in the omake is related to demon hunting, though, and folds more into the dispatch service. I figured the "paperpushing" upkeep was related to everything else: supplies for the houses, paperwork for the businesses, keeping track of who lives where and who is doing what tasks that month, paying bills/taxes, etc.

I love the omake @Kinematics. The bit where they think Hisa is a cult fanatic is a great touch. Of course, eventually they'll realize we don't actually have a theology.
But we do. We have both a core dogma:
"But if it's too hard to figure out if it even matters, each of those crazy ideas that might have been an important breakthrough is just discarded and forgotten. And we can't allow that; not if we hope to build an age where all magical girls can grow and thrive in a world of plenty, rather than scuffle and feud over the breadcrumbs."
And we have a divine mission:
Hisa paused, a frown now on her face. "We don't want there to be more wars. There shouldn't need to be more wars. Or Tokyos. Or Hong Kongs."
Our mission statement:

PEACE IN OUR TIME, ONLY, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT ALL THAT 'ULTRON' STUFF
 
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Great omake. A few corrections:
The bottle fell to the side and she took off out of the bus shelter at a dead run.
Gold ribbons and muskets appeared behind the Serene's leader in a showy display of power, her expression backlit by meguca magic and displeased.
"and displeased" is inappropriately placed. It sounds like "her expression was backlit by displeased" should be a valid contraction, but it isn't.
What she did understand was that she had a musket trained on her until they were within spitting distance - then the guns vanished in a guilty: "Oh! Kyouko!"
 
Maybe it's erratic, or uncertain, like 100% failure rate inside of 1 km and slowly tapering down to 5% failure rate at 5 km, but the Mageocracy doesn't have our obsession with documentation and numbers so they only have anecdotal information, rather than the full stochastic model based on Monte Carlo algorithms that the Serene quants would put out. Heh, maybe Kyouko's assistant will ask for the raw data for our group to number-crunch. :D
Oh please Madokami no! For all that is holy, do not make it a probability-based aura.
 
Oh, right, speaking of "nobody dies", @Elder Haman @Kinematics I wonder if next month we should make tandem teleport charms to wherever Serena is, so that we that can dump any girl having an 8-cube spiral into her aura. Yes, that means they can't leave it for now, and they'd only work within 35 km of Serena herself so in some cases (Iwata) we might need to have a teleporter leapfrog them there, but I'd rather not see a girl die if we can save her instead, even if she's effectively an Immortal from then on. I mean, our luck can't hold out forever, and we should be seeing 2-5 girls die from spirals per year otherwise.

The full text of this being your mission statement is just such an amusing thought to me.
Hell, I'm imagining that's what we have monogrammed on our charm thermoses. Or maybe

PEACE THROUGH POWER, THOUGH WE BE NOT BROTHERS

Our girls don't just have nerdity; they have full-frontal nerdity.
Oh please Madokami no! For all that is holy, do not make it a probability-based aura.
All auras are probability-based. It's just, you know, most of them are 100% lethal.
 
Kind of embarrassed myself in detail work by saying they didn't know how big the beholder's aura is before realizing how they could map its presence with teleport charms. It's something I only thought of after I wrote that section. Sometimes I miss details like that.
Actually, it's fully explainable. Nagoya doesn't need to know how large the aura is; they just need to know that it's far enough away to not affect them.

Further, if their only means of detection is with the rubber balls (ie: their clairvoyants can't or don't spend the time to pinpoint the demon's position), then all they're measuring is the edge of the aura. If they don't have a means of locating the beholder at the same time, there's no way to get a distance measurement, unless they spend a ton of time working around the arc to get a diameter. They can get a rough estimate based on the arc progression, but since it's still not particularly useful info to them (ie: if it's close enough to measure, it's too close), they wouldn't bother getting an exact value.

Edit: and yes, they could note the near-edge distance, and then teleport out til they get a far-edge distance, but there's no guarantee that that's directly across the center.
 
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Thanks! Going to quibble over this one though:

Gold ribbon and muskets appeared behind Serene's leader

vs

Gold ribbons and muskets appeared behind the Serene's leader

I meant gold ribbon in the same way I would have meant gold thread or gold brick or even just gold - there's an implication of multiplicity there. 'The' on the other hand sounds like style guide stuff, which I am comfortable with going anywhere. Are we calling ourselves 'The Serene' or 'Serene' or does no one have that formalized yet?

Because for sure no one is busting out the long Latin names at the drop of a hat, and SIMP is sadly abusable.
 
@Kinematics

Would you be willing to spend your non-canon Omake on morale this turn? I'm not sure I want to spend Legendary Magical Girls on it when it can help with recruitment of other Legendaries.
 
I meant gold ribbon in the same way I would have meant gold thread or gold brick or even just gold - there's an implication of multiplicity there.
OK, can see that.

'The' on the other hand sounds like style guide stuff, which I am comfortable with going anywhere. Are we calling ourselves 'The Serene' or 'Serene' or does no one have that formalized yet?
Hmmm. 'Serene' is a name for an individual. 'The Serene' is a name for an organization. Let's try some examples.

... appeared behind United States' President...
... appeared behind the United States' President... ✓
... appeared behind England's Queen... ✓
... appeared behind the England's Queen...
... appeared behind Hancock Bank's president... ✓
... appeared behind the bank's president... ✓

So there are options on either side.

I think if you used the full name, or even Serenissima, it would not need a 'the'. However 'Serene' is enough of a contraction that it's no longer quite the same thing, and falls under the same thing as the transition from "Hancock Bank" to "the bank". Or rather, from country name to citizen name. Basically, you would not refer to the organization as "Serene", but rather, "the Serenes", because it becomes a label for the members, not a name of the organization itself. EG:

... appeared behind Germany's President... ✓
... appeared behind the Germany's President...
... appeared behind Germans' President...
... appeared behind the Germans' President... ✓


Sorry for the side trip into grammar.
 
@Kinematics

Would you be willing to spend your non-canon Omake on morale this turn? I'm not sure I want to spend Legendary Magical Girls on it when it can help with recruitment of other Legendaries.
I... suppose? You mean the 'Doctors' one? Though honestly, I'd be more inclined to use it during or after Tokyo, as it's a lot easier for morale to fall, and we're likely to lose a fair bit of morale from, if nothing else, trying to incorporate Tokyo natives into our group.

Unless this is a tactical move specifically for the Serena aura issue? Even then, I'd want to be able to recover morale more quickly after the fact.
 
I... suppose? You mean the 'Doctors' one? Though honestly, I'd be more inclined to use it during or after Tokyo, as it's a lot easier for morale to fall, and we're likely to lose a fair bit of morale from, if nothing else, trying to incorporate Tokyo natives into our group.

Hmm, that's fair. I guess it can wait until our morale tanks after getting a bunch of Tokyo girls.
 
Also, on the topic of Nobody Dies, I am now imagining that if we send a girl over to help teach Nagoya how to do RT Crop Rotation then she would be aghast at them when they opine that not being hardline about no casualty chance will give them better manpower returns. Because nobody has to die, and they boggle at the sheer naivety of the girl who was going into such depth regarding how to best kill demons for maximum cube return.
Pondering some numbers on Nagoya's hunting habits now.

With their territory size of about 450, and using nothing but solo hunters, and assuming 4 elites are dedicated to it (leaving remaining elites to other stuff), they would need 85 vets on hunting.

If they're not quite as heavily invested in hunter safety (ie: no cell phones or shields, but all the rest of our normal training, full kevlar, plus dispatch), their casualty reduction for solos is 6%. If they hunt to exactly DS 0, that gives them a 3% casualty rate per month, which is 1.275 deaths per month. Elites are well below 0% casualty rates.

If they then did a test run of rotating tactics, taking DS up to only +5, they'd need to use 2 elites and 60 vets. It would raise elite casualty rates to 0.5%, and vet casualty rates to 10.5%. A 1 in 200 chance of an elite death, and 3.15 vet deaths (plus another 0.6375 from the non-overhunted side, for a total of 3.79 deaths per month).

Switching the overhunting side to pair hunting for the vets drops their casualty rate to 1.5%, which 0.56 deaths per month, or 1.2 deaths when combined with the non-overhunted territory. Doing so would require 75 vet hunters for overhunting, instead of 60, though. That's about the same total death rate as their normal hunting methods, but requires 32.5 more hunters to gain 85 more cubes.

Once things start cycling with both an overhunt and an underhunt, cubes per month is 475 instead of 450. Total vets (using pairs on the overhunt) goes up by 21. Death rate is 1.4 per month.

This assumes no greens are hunting, which is likely a faulty assumption. If greens don't hunt, they take 12 months to reach vet instead of 6, and Nagoya has a history of needing to get people up to vet status quickly. Putting a number on how many greens are hunting, though, would be blind guesswork, so I'll skip it.


Anyway, it is not unlikely that Nagoya treats 1 hunting death per month as completely normal, with 2 deaths as uncommon, but not rare. With hundreds of members, 1 or 2 deaths is a drop in the bucket.

If they are conservative on cube usage, and only allow 1 cube on spirals, they will likely have 11 to 14 deaths per month from spirals (assuming a total population of 350 meguca), at 1 to 2 morale. At 2 cubes, that becomes 5 to 7. That's a cost of 22 to 28 cubes per month when using 1 cube, or 33 to 42 cubes when using 2.

With any of those spiral death rates, the hunting death rates are pretty minor, and I can see them being skeptical of our insistence on safer procedures.

With full safety, it would cost them 120 vets to hunt up to +10, instead of the former 85 (again, ignoring any greens). Of course, it gets them 505 cubes. Still, it's a 17% loss in meguca efficiency, and with their numbers, 17% is a lot.

If they refused to worry about the death risks, they could go back to using solos (97 total) for only a 1% loss in efficiency, but accepting 3.4 deaths per month. An extra 2 deaths per month in order to save 23 units on hunting duty and gain 55 cubes.

If they didn't bother adding the extra safety stuff (shields and cell phones, mainly), it would be 5.8 deaths per month. I'm pretty sure they'd put in that effort, since it's only a bit of money.


Overall, that's what I'd expect to see from Nagoya using rotating tactics (though using greens would change the totals by quite a bit). And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't see it as worthwhile to switch to a "no one dies" setup. 20 more units available for work per month beats out worrying about 2 or 3 extra deaths.
 
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