I actually like that quite a bit, as the canon seems to suggest that this is normal, just with a few exceptional girls that sometimes break the system in a limited way. IE Homura.
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
Maromar
Crafter of Fiction
- Location
- SpaceTime
The very notion of suggesting that homu-run is any kind of broken is heresy. There will be no trial for your planet, as any defence is guilty of wasting the inquisition's time. Enjoy the exterminatus.
- Location
- A friendly desert community
@inverted_helix Thanks for your feedback! I will adjust accordingly. My drive to give people interesting powers gets away from me sometimes.
Re Reki: that's partly due to her expy source's art style being different. I can certainly find a different random black haired girl for her though. ETA: And I'll scratch the flight. What do you think of the miasma like thing though? It's supposed to be a draw back from using her power too long. Or possibly just a weird unsettling cosmetic effect.
Re Moka: something virtual like Taya's star chart sounds good. I will have to remind myself of our Prince's power.
Re Ririka: Ah yeah I see what you mean. May just make her a teleporter. With delusions of grandeur.
ETA2: Yay world building! I get you. I have a world I've been working on since I was 13.
Re Reki: that's partly due to her expy source's art style being different. I can certainly find a different random black haired girl for her though. ETA: And I'll scratch the flight. What do you think of the miasma like thing though? It's supposed to be a draw back from using her power too long. Or possibly just a weird unsettling cosmetic effect.
Re Moka: something virtual like Taya's star chart sounds good. I will have to remind myself of our Prince's power.
Re Ririka: Ah yeah I see what you mean. May just make her a teleporter. With delusions of grandeur.
ETA2: Yay world building! I get you. I have a world I've been working on since I was 13.
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I feel ashamed for not recognizing her name. Especially after just swiping an expy from a series even older than that.
She's willing to fight or be more generally recruited. And I'm not sure what you mean by Serena Test exactly, but I'm guessing resistance. On that front you guys just can't catch a break, with you asking I decided to just roll for it.
I don't want Miho to be addicted, but it does work from an RP perspective. Here's an omake for how Miho might have been addicted when we initially recruited her:
It was dark in Miho's room. Dark and safe. A pile of cubes were barely visible in the corner, their soft glow leaving the rest of the room even darker by contrast. The air was stale, but it wouldn't be safe to open an air hole until the demon left. Miho shivered as the cloying miasma permeated the room, but did not panic. She was safe as long as she stayed underground.
Miho lay on her mattress. "Cherries," she said out loud. The next time she went outside, she would get a large bag of cherries and eat them one at a time, savoring the sweet juice. She remembered Kiyomi bringing home a large bag of cherries just before... NO. "Cherries!" Sweet cherries. And some bread and some canned meat. Shopping for food was a pain. The shopkeepers looked at her with suspicion, even though her money was just as good as anyone else's. Other people pretended that she didn't exist as they kept their distance. It was probably the dirt. Her last shower had been just after coming back from a raid on... who was it? Was it the poacher group or that militant group or the other one? Whoever they were, they hadn't had many cubes in their basement. All that fighting over cubes seemed pointless now. Cubes were easy to come by these days. Nobody was fighting over them any more. Nobody was alive to... NO. "Cherries!" Safe darkness.
Suddenly, Miho sat up and sniffed the air. Something smelled sweet. Smelled? It didn't seem to be detected by her nose, but it wasn't a sound or a taste or a color, so it had to be a smell. Miho turned on a flashlight and looked around, but the stone walls of the room looked just as they always did. The fragrance didn't seem to be coming from anywhere in particular... but maybe it was a bit stronger up towards the ceiling? Also, the miasma was gone. Maybe the demons were gone now. Maybe a trip to the surface would be safe.
(i.e. Sabrina &co fight a youma which was camping out above Miho's hiding spot)
She's not addicted.
I know. But the comment about whether or not she would be addicted based on rolling a natural 1 made me think of how that could happen.
Having trouble with buckling down and writing, but I am chipping away a little.
Though one odd thing that the versions from Kinematics and Boonerunner made me think about is how clean Miho would be. Normally when you think of people that work with dirt they're going to be dirty. But Kinematics instead took the tact that an earthbender would be exceptionally clean because she has more control of the dirt. It's an interesting contrast in thoughts.
Though one odd thing that the versions from Kinematics and Boonerunner made me think about is how clean Miho would be. Normally when you think of people that work with dirt they're going to be dirty. But Kinematics instead took the tact that an earthbender would be exceptionally clean because she has more control of the dirt. It's an interesting contrast in thoughts.
So as I review the math behind the negotiations I find it increasingly odd how against the equity negotiations people were. I mean by NPV standards, Sachiko would be losing money compared to going to the Casino and betting on black in the more plausible scenarios for your growth.
Obviously she's overestimating your money per girl a bit. But at the 1% equity rate for instance you'd need to reach something like 1200 girls for that to end up breaking even.
I don't understand why people were plotting how to borrow the least amount of money. These are really good rates to borrow at.
(Also I didn't mention it before but going to Nagoya and claiming that Sachiko is trying to be a war profiteer wouldn't work. Because your borrowing is to improve your own expansion into Tokyo afterwards, it's unrelated to actually clearing it.)
Also you should be aware that from an OOC GM perspective you are not getting to more than 1 decimal precision here. I will not be calculating the results of 2.34354676% equity, it's not happening.
Obviously she's overestimating your money per girl a bit. But at the 1% equity rate for instance you'd need to reach something like 1200 girls for that to end up breaking even.
I don't understand why people were plotting how to borrow the least amount of money. These are really good rates to borrow at.
(Also I didn't mention it before but going to Nagoya and claiming that Sachiko is trying to be a war profiteer wouldn't work. Because your borrowing is to improve your own expansion into Tokyo afterwards, it's unrelated to actually clearing it.)
Also you should be aware that from an OOC GM perspective you are not getting to more than 1 decimal precision here. I will not be calculating the results of 2.34354676% equity, it's not happening.
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Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I hardly minded the equity concept myself. Ideally, we're presented with a situation where Sachiko needs something from us in the future and we can negotiate away bits of her ownership, forcing her to edit the original contract for help (after all, we literally owe her nothing if she goes for equity, that's literally how it works, so she can't ask us for a favor on the premise that she offered the loan). At worst it's a couple favors that she can either use for monthly installments for the foreseeable future, or surrender for something more tangible.
That we'd probably help her even if she didn't have equity we could buy out doesn't matter.
That we'd probably help her even if she didn't have equity we could buy out doesn't matter.
Perhaps because the initial wording used to describe the deal makes it sound really bad to some, and they don't want to be under Sachiko's thumb financial-wise anymore than absolutely necessary?
It's no more under thumb than a normal loan really. With a normal loan you pay interest. Most people don't really regard that as under thumb.
I guess personally I don't really see the difference between what amounts to profit sharing vs interest payments.
It's hard for me to grasp normal psychology sometimes.
Nice to see my example:
was memorable enough.
Perfectly understandable. Although I do feel the need to point out Elder Haman's vote actually limits it to two decimal points:
probably because that was in my original proposal. The reasoning being a combination of both simplicity and the fact most business percentages are rounded to two decimal places.
Mini Turn: Turn 35 Negotiations 2
Turn 35 Negotiations
Nagoya Magocracy Negotiations
- Accept Nagoya's ideas
- Discuss further the refugee issue. We too are concerned, but don't know what else we can do, we've already taken in a large number of refugees, and are trying to make it possible to take in more. Though that will probably be dependent on being able to hunt in Tokyo. Tentatively we are hoping to rent additional teleport interdiction artifacts to allow safe hunting in parts of Tokyo. We'll have to see how effective that is this turn to know if we can scale it to get more cubes to support more refugees. Otherwise we are close to being tapped out in space.
- Discuss further the refugee issue. We too are concerned, but don't know what else we can do, we've already taken in a large number of refugees, and are trying to make it possible to take in more. Though that will probably be dependent on being able to hunt in Tokyo. Tentatively we are hoping to rent additional teleport interdiction artifacts to allow safe hunting in parts of Tokyo. We'll have to see how effective that is this turn to know if we can scale it to get more cubes to support more refugees. Otherwise we are close to being tapped out in space.
Magick Company Negotiations
Respond to Magick Corp's proposal with interest in the idea. However, there are a few concerns.
First of all, we do not want to have a perverse incentive to skimp on the amount of resources spent on our magical girls. Instead we suggest that the equity payment be made based on the amount of money transferred from our business over to our magical girl organization. Basically our gross income for the magical girl organization (after all business related expenses/mortgages are deducted). (So $37,500 the previous turn). Since this will mean an increase in the base that is included when calculating the payment, we suggest this should reduce the equity to 3.5% per 1 million borrowed.
Second, the exact costs the Serene will be facing in the near future are unclear with current numbers merely being estimates based upon detailed scenario analysis. Therefore a fixed investment of X million is undesirable for both the Serene, paying a higher dividend then required, and Magick Corporation, incurring significantly more risk then necessary. Instead it is suggested a line of credit is established with an agreed upon limit, that will be available until an agreed upon time, such as three months after the Youma and Beholder threat are eliminated, at which point the total withdrawn will be used to calculate the percentage of revenue shared, rounded up to two decimal places of a percent.
Third, since the risk changes quite a bit depending on how far we have gotten in clearing Tokyo, and since we won't need much of the monies until later, we would like to suggest there be a staggered line of credit with different rates depending on the achievement of certain milestones. We would suggest that the first line of credit immediately available be for only $500,000, and because of the reduced amount we ask the equity purchase to be reduced to 3% per 1 million (or 1.5% if we borrow the entire $500,000). Once the Floating Eyeball oni is dead, an additional 2 million line of credit would become available, at the reduced rate of 2% equity per 1 million borrowed. Once all the youma have been cleared from Tokyo, a total line of credit of 4 million will become available, and any credit taken out at this point would purchase 1% of equity per 1 million borrowed. With the line of credit to close 3 months following the clearing of all youma.
Fourth, while we think this to be a very profitable arrangement for both sides, we think it wise to include some method of peaceably dissolving the arrangement. Perhaps a buy back option, where in addition to repaying the initial line of credit we would also pay some premium to represent the new value of the equity. We are open to details on how Maigck Corp thinks it would be the most equitable to arrange this option.
While they are considering the counter offer, also bring up the issue of refugees. Suggest that the organizations surrounding Tokyo ought to share some responsibility in handling the refugees. Would Magick Corp be able to handle one sixth of the refugees? If (when) they react negatively to this suggestion, reply that in consideration of the invaluable aid Magick Corp will be giving the Serenes in rebuilding Tokyo, that we will take on responsibility for Magick Corp's portion of the refugees. They can either send us any additional refugees they pick up to join our organization instead, or we could potentially come to an arrangement of temporarily providing Magick Corp additional territory to hunt in until the Tokyo refugee problem is resolved.
Mention that perhaps in the future there can be additional cooperation between the Serenes and Magick Corp that would allow us to each play to our strengths. The Serenes in the governance of territory and magical girls, while Magick Corp focuses on business activities.
First of all, we do not want to have a perverse incentive to skimp on the amount of resources spent on our magical girls. Instead we suggest that the equity payment be made based on the amount of money transferred from our business over to our magical girl organization. Basically our gross income for the magical girl organization (after all business related expenses/mortgages are deducted). (So $37,500 the previous turn). Since this will mean an increase in the base that is included when calculating the payment, we suggest this should reduce the equity to 3.5% per 1 million borrowed.
Second, the exact costs the Serene will be facing in the near future are unclear with current numbers merely being estimates based upon detailed scenario analysis. Therefore a fixed investment of X million is undesirable for both the Serene, paying a higher dividend then required, and Magick Corporation, incurring significantly more risk then necessary. Instead it is suggested a line of credit is established with an agreed upon limit, that will be available until an agreed upon time, such as three months after the Youma and Beholder threat are eliminated, at which point the total withdrawn will be used to calculate the percentage of revenue shared, rounded up to two decimal places of a percent.
Third, since the risk changes quite a bit depending on how far we have gotten in clearing Tokyo, and since we won't need much of the monies until later, we would like to suggest there be a staggered line of credit with different rates depending on the achievement of certain milestones. We would suggest that the first line of credit immediately available be for only $500,000, and because of the reduced amount we ask the equity purchase to be reduced to 3% per 1 million (or 1.5% if we borrow the entire $500,000). Once the Floating Eyeball oni is dead, an additional 2 million line of credit would become available, at the reduced rate of 2% equity per 1 million borrowed. Once all the youma have been cleared from Tokyo, a total line of credit of 4 million will become available, and any credit taken out at this point would purchase 1% of equity per 1 million borrowed. With the line of credit to close 3 months following the clearing of all youma.
Fourth, while we think this to be a very profitable arrangement for both sides, we think it wise to include some method of peaceably dissolving the arrangement. Perhaps a buy back option, where in addition to repaying the initial line of credit we would also pay some premium to represent the new value of the equity. We are open to details on how Maigck Corp thinks it would be the most equitable to arrange this option.
While they are considering the counter offer, also bring up the issue of refugees. Suggest that the organizations surrounding Tokyo ought to share some responsibility in handling the refugees. Would Magick Corp be able to handle one sixth of the refugees? If (when) they react negatively to this suggestion, reply that in consideration of the invaluable aid Magick Corp will be giving the Serenes in rebuilding Tokyo, that we will take on responsibility for Magick Corp's portion of the refugees. They can either send us any additional refugees they pick up to join our organization instead, or we could potentially come to an arrangement of temporarily providing Magick Corp additional territory to hunt in until the Tokyo refugee problem is resolved.
Mention that perhaps in the future there can be additional cooperation between the Serenes and Magick Corp that would allow us to each play to our strengths. The Serenes in the governance of territory and magical girls, while Magick Corp focuses on business activities.
A credit line you can draw against and calculate the equity at the end seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise as well, but she sees little reason for each tier to have individual caps.
As to the percent equity per unit borrowed she counters with 3.2% on any borrowed before the beholder's death, 2% on the remainder. At 1% the amount of growth you'd need to see for it to be profitable for her is simply too high even if there were no remaining risk at all. She's guessing you'd need around a thousand girls to make enough for that to even break even, and she doesn't really expect you to be able to get that many.
As to a buyback system it is reasonable enough for you to desire that, but it's equally not really in her interests. It would have to include a fairly substantial payment to justify it: something along the lines of the NPV of a perpetuity of the current payment at the time of the buyback.
Refugees are an entirely separate matter. And trying to suggest she take in a sixth when her group's size in terms of population is so much lower than the other major groups is just comical. If you want her to take in a large number of refugees she'd need the territory to support it, which she simply doesn't have. Though refugees are highly unlikely to reach her anyway given how she is shielded by the territories of the Enlightened and the Magical Queendom from the direction of Tokyo.
She's wants you to know that she isn't trying to gouge you as you may think. She hopes for you to succeed. But she'd hardly be any good at business if she handed out money without the odds favoring making it back.
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Something that seems to have slipped people's notice is that The Magick Company (keeping in mind obviously that's the magical side name, her real businesses have their own names in the same way that your organization's businesses do) is the smallest of the "major" magical girl groups in Japan in terms of population. That group isn't actually much larger than the Kofu group in terms of population. It's only counted as major because of money.
Also notable: Sachiko is not in fact a business robot, but she tries to act that way sometimes because people can be painful. And the power she got from her wish really does influence the way she set herself up. I think it was TheEyes who thought that she had gained her power realized its applications and then read a bunch of business self-help books and decided to live her entire life by them. It's not perfectly accurate, but it's not entirely wrong either.
I don't think it's unique. People have long been against giving anything away to anyone. This equity, territory for HC, the trade deal with Nagoya, the business deal with the Coalition, the kidnapping in Iwata, the idea of open sharing of scientific progress, and probably others I'm forgetting about. Get as much as possible while giving away as little as possible.
I worked with the lower percentage numbers, but only because I didn't know what that would end up actually meaning, nor do I know what sort of recoupment rate would be 'reasonable' for Sachiko.
1) Paranoia about not 'winning' the negotiation (as noted above).
2) Lack of grasp of what any given set of numbers mean, influenced by those who claim a given result for us is good. For example, I don't know what sort of time period to look at for doubling your money, as being enough to be 'worthwhile'.
3) Assumption that the proposed offer must necessarily be higher than what we want to accept. I accepted this for the sake of the discussion, though in hindsight I should have been more critical of it.
4) Bandwagon once something sounds reasonable, given complications on the above understandings.
5) If everyone is already bandwagoning one option, it's hard to expect any traction on an alternative option if it doesn't at least adhere to some of what people seem to be agreeing on.
Heh. No idea why Haman put that in. I took it out of my proposal.
Anyway, as I'm apparently a horrible negotiator, and have an admittedly limited understanding of financial markets, I've left most of the discussion to others. A more correct approach would have been to assume that the financial specialist meguca should have been considered the expert, and deferred to her.
I would normally assume Mami would smooth over these flaws, and skip anything that showed up as obviously being done in bad taste. However since she got stuck training in HC, I'm not sure how much influence she can have over the vet that's handling the talks.
On the other hand, if the vet tries to negotiate too insulting of a deal, Sachiko may demand to speak with someone higher up the command chain, pulling Mami in to deal with the discussion personally. If that does happen, hopefully we don't end up too harshly penalized for it.
It's a pretty normal attitude in these games I think. Probably why static numbers and letting people just balance the numbers predominate instead of negotiation turns.
It's still pretty interesting though. I'm not exactly as annoyed as I may sound. Though I am trying to get people to be more reasonable.
I'm not great at it either so don't feel bad. I regret that you've felt left out. Mostly since I'm not doing rolls for these negotiations I'm just not giving you as much insight into the characters as you would have gotten with Mami. But I feel like that's actually making the situation even more difficult for people to grasp. So it's hard to handle. I may make high level negotiations like this require Mami in the future or something. Not sure.
1: Perpetuity vs a fixed duration loan freaks people out.
2: The original ask would have created a disincentive to spending on our girls that would be at odds with our established MO
3: Assumption that equity provides voting control despite that not being the case
4: Irrational prejudice against capitalism is pretty common for SV demographics
5: It actually is reasonable to minimize equity sales as selling equity later provides greater returns (assuming we succeed) so there is no reason not to try and minimize (as long as such minimization does not significantly cripple our expansion).
That would make sense. We're making a deal involving a major aspect of the future of the organization, and it will require the magical contracting of the 5 top members. Not having Mami, or someone similar, on that is just...
As expected she agreed since it's a Win-Win for everyone.
I'm not entirely sure why @Elder Haman had caps to begin with. Still she basically agreed to our request here which is good.
Seeing as we probably weren't going to withdraw much in the 1% time slot anyway and the largest chunk of withdrawals will likely be before the Beholder dies this is actually quite advantageous to us. We basically traded away a decrease where we wouldn't benefit for a decrease where it benefits us the most.
...wow. I'm actually amazed she's willing to give us the buyback for value. I was fully expecting some kinda surcharge.
Hmm. I wonder; is this Inverted_helix trying to reassure us we're misjudging Sachiko (most likely) or is this Sachiko realizing she may have unintentionally antagonized us, the thinly veiled threat probably hinted at this, and is trying to placate us since if SIMP survives it will be the superpower in Japan.
That's fine, I say we grab this deal.
Wonderful. No problem.
To limit her exposure to risk as another argument for reduction in rates. Credit cards do it all the time, if you have bad credit they give you a small limit, that then rises after you prove yourself a less risky borrower.
Okay... I'd like to know how we'd calculate the NPV, but in principle not opposed. This is mainly an emergency escape hatch, so that if the need is felt we can exercise it.
Actually, 1/6th was chosen in full awareness of those facts. Consider also that Nagoya has accepted so many refugees that they have well over 200 on ice. And we have accepted twice our own numbers. Furthermore, The Enlightened and Sendai have been dealing with refugees because of their closer proximity.
All of this makes it extremely reasonable for the rest of the magical organizations to insist on Magick Corp pulling it's "fair share" of which 1/6 of new refugees would be on the low end of what most would consider "fair."
Of course, it's entirely in character for Sachiko to be blind to this perspective. Which was an important point of including that line of argument. Sachiko needs to be aware that her relatively protected position is something that can cause resentment in the rest of the magical girl community. (Plus, point out that by loaning us money to take care of refugees, indirectly helps her by making the refugee crisis less potent.)
Sounds like she got the message.
I don't really feel she is a heartless capitalist seeking to make war profits. Frankly I suspect part of the reason she is offering a good deal is that she wants us to succeed, (and she wants in on it, but not at such a level that resentment will be bred). She just doesn't realize how irrational people are about "hoarding" and "profiteering." (Both IC and OOC).
Uh... no. Even with Sachiko being the expert, it's not correct to defer to someone else when their fiduciary interests and yours are in conflict. And they were. Now the benefits of cooperation out weighed that conflict, and by quite a bit, but being an "expert" does not suddenly make someone immune to self-interest.
I'm not so sure this is what happened. I think it's less a matter of assuming the initial offer is bad for us and more assuming the initial offer is a high ball. Frankly we're in such a situation where even if it was double what she was asking for (8%) then I'd still vote for accepting because we do kinda need a large cash infusion now. So while her offer certainly wasn't bad for us, as I showed it's actually quite good, we could clearly do better, as demonstrated by the fact we just got a better offer, and why accept anything less then the best you can get?
[X] Accept Sachiko's counter offer, with the caveat that the NPV calculations must be reasonable, simple, and standard.
helix can balance these requirements (simple is to make the math easier on us all). As long as it's nothing surprisingly unbalanced I'm not going to object.
helix can balance these requirements (simple is to make the math easier on us all). As long as it's nothing surprisingly unbalanced I'm not going to object.
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Eh. I wouldn't really say it's irrationality. Venture capital stuff is rather byzantine in nature and trying to understand it is not easy for those that haven't studied its mechanisms (i.e. most of us).
How the heck do you calculate that? Best estimate of Magick Corp's territory tops out at about 50. Sendai's estimated at around 150. We had 75. Nagoya was estimated at 450 without their vassals (which I'll ignore for simplicity). And then a few other small ones that might add up to another 100 all together. You might be able to argue 1/16, but I don't know how you could argue 1/6, much less call that either "low" or "fair".
This also makes no sense to me. Should the Republic of Japan also foster resentment because of its relatively protected position behind Nagoya/Osaka/HC? What about Okayama?
She saw the suggestion as comical. I rather agree with her.