Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
Currently assuming we need to actually provide the contact equipment (cell phones), and marked it as $20 each for 100 phones (our normal cell phone cost). Is this correct? Is this necessary? And if so, what would the cube charge from Kyuubey be for passing them out?
Not sure why you need 100.

Also tempted to make things a little different on the cellphone costs here. Some of them will already have them but the issue is that I've marked off your cell phone costs now as essentially you getting the phones for free with you getting a contract plan. This works for your girls since you usually intend to keep them forever, but with phones that you're buying for one month maybe I should look at burner phone costs.

So here the ones in red we have to do. I assume that just warning wouldn't cost us anything. I'd also prioritize the ones in yellow. Can this drop by 0.5 vets if we drop one of the other two items? Or both of those items?
Negotiating this type of thing with a group that's barely met you is costly. They have no basis for trust and lending out girls is really heavy on trust. So going to say no, a lot of this is basically trying to convince them you're not going to do something terrible to them the moment you have them.

Considering that we just did a trade deal with them around hunting for pay, do you think we can get the items in yellow for zero girls?
Hmm, I might allow this at a roll penalty.

You having to penny pinch on girls is an unusual feeling these days I know, but not being able to fit everything you want is supposed to be a thing in this quest.

Knowing which low-probability outcome will occur is anentropic unless she's creating the requisite minimum amount of waste heat at the same time. It's the same principle as Maxwell's demon.
I kind of assume this is something going on in the background in general with PMMM powers, as otherwise all the girls would be trapped in elaborate versions of hamsterwheels designed for their specific abilities for power production.
She can sense where things are headed, regardless of probability. She also knows that she can act to shift that final result, because her actions alter the path.

Her primary approach is to shift the path so that the end result is one with the lowest nominal probability of occurring, and then act with the knowledge that it will happen. (Knowledge of the probabilities would be due to skill, not her power.) Since other people will act on the assumption that the result will not happen, that gives her a significant advantage.
Honestly this seems more along the lines of factoring in more information to the point that you collapse the number of possible outcomes. I mean the more things you account for the less "randomness" there is in any situation.

I mean if you throw enough sensors and computing power at it you can predict virtually any game of chance already.

Also I updated the last turn with rumors and the expedition post with another bit.
 
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Did I miss something - is there a reason we can't take the non-elite Tokyo girls? Nagoya doesn't want them, but is clearly willing to rescue them. If they refuse to let us take them in, we'll know where we stand with Nagoya, if they do let us take them - we'll also know where we stand with Nagoya.

I'd be willing to spend one of my uncashed omakes to have Kyouko do this as part of her in Tokyo action with @inverted_helix's approval.
 
Did I miss something - is there a reason we can't take the non-elite Tokyo girls? Nagoya doesn't want them, but is clearly willing to rescue them. If they refuse to let us take them in, we'll know where we stand with Nagoya, if they do let us take them - we'll also know where we stand with Nagoya.

I'd be willing to spend one of my uncashed omakes to have Kyouko do this as part of her in Tokyo action with @inverted_helix's approval.

1300 girls is far too many for us to support with our current territory?
 
And how do we pick the half dozen?

Not to mention it would slow down our ability to support attacking the class 3 demons in Tokyo.

That's what we need to focus on.

We wouldn't be the ones picking them up, we're just asking Nagoya to rescue them for us and offering to support them. There's basically zero cost. It's all about us wanting the same things that they want - helping magical girls.
 
Did I miss something - is there a reason we can't take the non-elite Tokyo girls? Nagoya doesn't want them, but is clearly willing to rescue them. If they refuse to let us take them in, we'll know where we stand with Nagoya, if they do let us take them - we'll also know where we stand with Nagoya.

I'd be willing to spend one of my uncashed omakes to have Kyouko do this as part of her in Tokyo action with @inverted_helix's approval.
I'm not even fully sure what you're talking about.

1300 girls is far too many for us to support with our current territory?
Literally over 10x as many.

Yeah, but we can pick up half a dozen at very little cost to ourselves I'm pretty sure.
Even just the amount that Nagoya's been providing aid to would be beyond your current capacity to take in I think. Though from this statement I'm guessing you just mean the ones that Kyouko saw personally?

Okay...

How much of a roll penalty?
Probably along the lines of -20. Being in a rush doesn't a good impression on negotiations make.

Hmm... how many demons did they kill this trip?
Rolls were pretty high. So three. I was just getting entirely too fed up with it taking too long to write at that point.

Keep in mind that if you got a few groups together and freed up enough resources from them it was entirely possible to clear Tokyo without any Legendary support, that was one of the possible routes too. If Nagoya wasn't so heavily engaged in other places they could potentially have cleared Tokyo, they'd just take losses to do so that they can't afford.
 
Rumors:
Global recession: China's economy is heavily impacted by ongoing crisis in Hong Kong, in addition to other spots of turmoil across the globe consumer confidence has significantly fallen. As ever survival supplies are up when everything else is down.

It's said that the leader of Heaven's Chosen Yashiro Hiko is the oldest magical girl in Japan, possibly in Asia. She's also amongst the most powerful, and has squared off against multiple members of the Junta's ruling council at once without a loss. Some say she's a bit out of touch with reality, but all agree she's fiercely protective of those under her protection.

Tensions along the border between the Osaka Junta and the Nagoya Magocracy continue to be high due to the Junta's hunting policies.

Well... the whole world is going down the tubes. Hopefully we can save our little corner of it.

So Heaven's Chosen is led by an old magical girl. Interesting. Fits with the name. Wonder if they have hunting tech...

The Junta... what exactly is their hunting policy?
 
Probably along the lines of -20. Being in a rush doesn't a good impression on negotiations make.

Hmm... what if we limited to only inquiring about a clairvoyant to train with our dispatch team? And we ask what we'd have to pay?

Maybe phrase it as part of the end of the training we are giving their pack of hunters? Offer to have one of their clairvoyants work with ours?
 
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I'm not even fully sure what you're talking about.

It works like so:
  • Tokyo girls that aren't going back to Nagoya are not going back because they don't want to become literally disembodied
  • Near the end of the trip, Kyouko gets a pang of conscience, grumbles that Mami is making her soft and offers to house them instead
  • Nagoya reacts by ...???
Edit: I'm primarily curious as to whether or not anyone has suggested this yet, because it seems really obvious to me. o3o
 
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Hmm... what if we limited to only inquiring about a clairvoyant to train with our dispatch team? And we ask what we'd have to pay?

Maybe phrase it as part of the end of the training we are giving their pack of hunters? Offer to have one of their clairvoyants work with ours?
Hmm I suppose I could allow that much at least.

It works like so:
  • Tokyo girls that aren't going back to Nagoya are not going back because they don't want to become literally disembodied
  • Near the end of the trip, Kyouko gets a pang of conscience, grumbles that Mami is making her soft and offers to house them instead
  • Nagoya reacts by ...???
Edit: I'm primarily curious as to whether or not anyone has suggested this yet, because it seems really obvious to me. o3o
I guess I could allow this if other people wanted it.
 
Honestly this seems more along the lines of factoring in more information to the point that you collapse the number of possible outcomes. I mean the more things you account for the less "randomness" there is in any situation.

I mean if you throw enough sensors and computing power at it you can predict virtually any game of chance already.
Eh, I'm not going to worry too much about pinning down exactly how her power works. What I wrote up is a reasonable approximation. For most practical purposes: She tends to play the long odds, and that tends to work out for her. And she's patient enough to wait for the right moment to act.

Not sure why you need 100.

Also tempted to make things a little different on the cellphone costs here. Some of them will already have them but the issue is that I've marked off your cell phone costs now as essentially you getting the phones for free with you getting a contract plan. This works for your girls since you usually intend to keep them forever, but with phones that you're buying for one month maybe I should look at burner phone costs.
I went with a high number, as I wanted to get a decent number of the groups all round Tokyo in addition to just the elites. However even the elites are not going to be just solo; there's probably several clusters of them working together, in order to hold their position. And they're likely to have better contact with the other groups anyway.

So 32 or so (last elite count) should be sufficient. Will wait til the burner phone cost is provided.

Keep in mind that if you got a few groups together and freed up enough resources from them it was entirely possible to clear Tokyo without any Legendary support, that was one of the possible routes too. If Nagoya wasn't so heavily engaged in other places they could potentially have cleared Tokyo, they'd just take losses to do so that they can't afford.
Nice to know that was viable.

Also I updated the last turn with rumors and the expedition post with another bit.
Finally got a better feel for how they fight and interact (without being on the receiving end). Makes it much easier to speculate about them and get an idea of how to deal with them.
 
Global recession: China's economy is heavily impacted by ongoing crisis in Hong Kong, in addition to other spots of turmoil across the globe consumer confidence has significantly fallen. As ever survival supplies are up when everything else is down.
Clearing out Class 3 infestations (and making it stick, unlike Kesi) should help with this. After we've dealt with Tokyo, we should look into other cities suffering similar problems that we could expand into. Having more people next time should make the whole process much quicker.

It's said that the leader of Heaven's Chosen Yashiro Hiko is the oldest magical girl in Japan, possibly in Asia. She's also amongst the most powerful, and has squared off against multiple members of the Junta's ruling council at once without a loss. Some say she's a bit out of touch with reality, but all agree she's fiercely protective of those under her protection.
Sounds worryingly like a Legendary, though if she were that good there probably wouldn't be any competing groups in the area.

EDIT: "Oldest in Japan" isn't necessarily a very high bar, so she's probably an Elite with a bunch of tricks.

Tensions along the border between the Osaka Junta and the Nagoya Magocracy continue to be high due to the Junta's hunting policies.
Did we hear anything about what their hunting policies are, beyond presumably risking Class 3 demons?
 
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@inverted_helix Could you remove Personal Enchanting Effects, Effects of Enchanting on Technology and Spell Anchoring Duration Research from the list of available research, since we've completed them/made them obselete? It's making the list somewhat difficult to interpret. Similarly, Advanced Detection training has been finished.
 
From the new update:
There's an elegance to how they fight together that even you can't deny; a level of coordination that you might once have had with Mami. For all that they have ranged attackers firing with glowing arrows, bullets, rocks, and energy blasts into the midst of others leaping into the air to try to box it in and drive it down as it flies about wildly, there's no friendly fire. Skill or magic it's hard to say. They all show signs of training and experience beyond your own, though you'd never admit that, but lying to yourself wouldn't do you much good.
They didn't take any casualties on the trip you were on. From what you've heard casualties are actually pretty rare these days, though they were more common in earlier expeditions. They're really more cautious than you were expecting. They're willing to risk their lives, but they don't throw them away.
Obviously much more experienced in fighting Class 3 demons then we are, but I doubt there's any way to get that other than fighting a bunch of Class 3 demons.

It fires off multiple tongues trying to grab at the girls jumping through the air, but their movements stutter oddly, not teleporting, but something similar maybe. Uno is always in its face attracting attention but wielding some sort of shield bigger than she is in place of a weapon.
Uno appears in front of you in a blur of motion and shield smashes it in the face.
Uno flies across the field of battle in a trajectory that makes no sense whatsoever before coming to a halt and flickering to reengage the undead tiger mixing up with the ranged group.
This sounds like it might derive from the Enhanced Speed research. Uno specifically might have related wish magic on top of that.

A light appears about you and shuts down the effect
A ranged healing effect?
 
Also tempted to make things a little different on the cellphone costs here. Some of them will already have them but the issue is that I've marked off your cell phone costs now as essentially you getting the phones for free with you getting a contract plan. This works for your girls since you usually intend to keep them forever, but with phones that you're buying for one month maybe I should look at burner phone costs.
So 32 or so (last elite count) should be sufficient. Will wait til the burner phone cost is provided.
Okay, burner phones. Until relatively recently Japan has been kind of a wasteland for prepaid, but that's changing for everyone that's not a tourist, as you're required to show an ID to buy a phone in Japan and a lot of stores won't look at a passport. Nowadays a Japan native can get a cheap flipphone for about $30, and a cheap smartphone for $60; similarly a cheap no-data plan with unlimited night calling (which is when we'd be calling anyway) is around $30, whereas a voice+data plan costs around $60.

So, depends on how much we want to spend. Basic ability to call would be $90 per meguca (basic phone + 2 months service), but if we want to make a good impression we can up to a basic smartphone for $120 per meguca, and add data for another $60 for a total of $180 per meguca.

Negotiating this type of thing with a group that's barely met you is costly. They have no basis for trust and lending out girls is really heavy on trust. So going to say no, a lot of this is basically trying to convince them you're not going to do something terrible to them the moment you have them.
Gotta agree there. I mean, let's face it, everyone thinks the Serene are a cult, and they're not entirely wrong.

Did I miss something - is there a reason we can't take the non-elite Tokyo girls? Nagoya doesn't want them, but is clearly willing to rescue them. If they refuse to let us take them in, we'll know where we stand with Nagoya, if they do let us take them - we'll also know where we stand with Nagoya.

I'd be willing to spend one of my uncashed omakes to have Kyouko do this as part of her in Tokyo action with @inverted_helix's approval.
It works like so:
  • Tokyo girls that aren't going back to Nagoya are not going back because they don't want to become literally disembodied
  • Near the end of the trip, Kyouko gets a pang of conscience, grumbles that Mami is making her soft and offers to house them instead
  • Nagoya reacts by ...???
Edit: I'm primarily curious as to whether or not anyone has suggested this yet, because it seems really obvious to me. o3o
We're actually getting close to the max number of meguca our territory can readily support as it is. Especially with Serena's five girls joining up we're getting to the point where if we take in too many more we'll have to sacrifice research or move to more inefficient pack IRT farming to stay in the black.

More importantly, Tokyo itself is showing signs of being at lower than -10 DS. It needs to be overhunted, and soon, before we hit Hong Kong levels of negative DS and people start dying in droves. We're not going to get there by taking in five or six refugees.

This sounds like it might derive from the Enhanced Speed research. Uno specifically might have related wish magic on top of that.
Sounds that way to me too, along with a Class 3 version of Defending Others training.

A ranged healing effect?
Or a healing anchor spell.
 
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We're actually getting close to the max number of meguca our territory can readily support as it is. Especially with Serena's five girls joining up we're getting to the point where if we take in too many more we'll have to sacrifice research or move to more inefficient pack IRT farming to stay in the black.

More importantly, Tokyo itself is showing signs of being at lower than -10 DS. It needs to be overhunted, and soon, before we hit Hong Kong levels of negative DS and people start dying in droves. We're not going to get there by taking in five or six refugees.

I remain unconvinced that taking them in is a step in the wrong direction. Consider:
  • It sends a message to Nagoya. We want them to believe that we are good people and that's why we're going all in in Tokyo. Helping with the refugee problem is a step in that direction. It also suggests our cube capacity is as good as we claim it to be.
    • It also lets us judge Nagoya. How far are they willing to trust us?
  • It sends a message to girls in Tokyo. Right now we have four Tokyo nomads, but they more or less stumbled on us rather than the reverse. Having more girls from Tokyo that other girls in Tokyo might know of who can play the role of ambassador is going to be essential to get them to trust us. Don't forget, Nagoya has a deep, deep pool of Tokyo girls to draw from because they've been processing refugees for almost a year. However, because they give preferential treatment to the elites, if we show ourselves to be indiscriminate in our efforts to help, people might be more inclined to see us in a positive light.
  • Having girls fresh from Tokyo also lets us know more of the lay of the land.
  • There is no wasted meguca action here. Basically all that needs to be done is a bit of a retcon and maybe an omake that I am willing to spend since I have... uh, four or so sitting around.
And didn't people want more meguca not so long ago, to the point where we wanted to trade omakes for newly contracted greens?
 
So, reevaluation of Nagoya: They are better than us in just about every way.

While they appeared to have had to deal with (and accept) a relatively high death rate early on, we should expect them to be at the "no one dies" tier right now (outside of the possible wars they're fighting), simply because of the resources available to them. Based on their behavior, I'd now estimate the Nagoya group to be at morale 3.

They have substantially better combat experience and skill. They've completed research into numerous areas that we haven't even touched yet. They have truckloads of money, and 5 times our territory, plus 10-20 vassals (rough guess based on 13/14 sizes). They have sufficient resources to make a stand against the Tokyo problem without a legendary. They have substantial PvP experience.

Meanwhile, we have.. tandem casting (as does the Coalition), and an improved rotating tactics that we can't fully take advantage of. We have skills in paperwork and training, but not the advanced skills that the better groups would actually need training in. We have morale, and a much longer institutional memory (but no actual application for such). And a very charming leader.

So, a nice cult, but not much more than that.


Since I ran numbers for the meguca penalty Nagoya could maybe face for 'safe' hunting, it's also appropriate to consider the penalty we took for the same thing.

Running numbers on turns 12 through 20, it looks like we sacrificed 26 meguca months (so an average of about 3 meguca per month) in order to reduce our deaths by 0.44 — barely a coin flip on a single death. Might have sacrificed some cubes, too (up to perhaps 20), but I didn't run through the numbers of how many were spent on non-upkeep/spirals along the way.

helix noted several times early on that he was surprised at how risk-averse we were, when it would be more efficient to allow for deaths. While it's not quite valid to fully extrapolate the above across the entire game history, it would not be completely unsupported to estimate that we may have lost on the order of 80 to 100 meguca-months of capability.

Of course, 2 or 3 lives is just a number, but losing any specific lives could have been a significantly worse issue. Unless it just got papered over. Oh, you lost a scientist? Have a new recruit. Sure, they can be a scientist too. Pick up the research where you left off.


~~~~

So, this changes our position in the negotiation. It also changes our expectations in dealing with the class 3 demons. Nagoya is good at what they do. They have a whole year of experience fighting these things, and easily outclassed Kyouko's contribution.

We don't have that experience and skill, and Serena has no experience at all. We are basically betting everything on the aura's effect trumping any other issues. Not that we could help them fight, anyway.

The honeypot trap idea heavily depends on being able to kill weakened demons quickly, in the midst of Serena's aura. I don't know that we can trust that to be the case. Even during Kyouko's fight, she got distracted by personal memories for a bit, and the hope aura's psychological effect could have made that deadly.

Basically, the only person we can allow as any sort of assist is KyouClone, because if she does something stupid to get herself killed, she's replaceable. Of course, if she does something to get someone else killed, then it's game over.

For all intents and purposes, we cannot assist Serena at all during the fights. Which means any group we bring is sitting outside her aura with a great big target on their backs, waiting for a random class 3 attack. And our support group is only weakly suited for such a fight. We have four elites, plus Seto (high risk). We'd be fighting outside the hope aura, which means all the nasty class 3 psych effects are in place. If things look bad, our only hope is that we can escape to inside the aura and still function.

We need Kaoru trained up. Can't keep putting it off. 3 more omakes, and squeezing out training space.

Nagoya is still good enough to handle the escapees on their own.

Secondary vet teams are non-functional for anything except sufficient defense to allow for a withdrawal. Overloading on them will not do any good. Reevaluate expected assignments for next month.
 
And didn't people want more meguca not so long ago, to the point where we wanted to trade omakes for newly contracted greens?
That was one person, and others were explicitly against it.

It sends a message to Nagoya. We want them to believe that we are good people and that's why we're going all in in Tokyo. Helping with the refugee problem is a step in that direction. It also suggests our cube capacity is as good as we claim it to be.
Main problems I have are that it's not IC for Kyouko, and that it's out of place in the current context. She's just along for the ride; everything going on here is Nagoya's game. If she tries to suggest we can take people in, that's undercutting Nagoya's position, while Nagoya is the one out here actually doing the work. We're also very limited in how many we can take, so it's petty undercutting at that.

And then there's the fact that if we make the offer, people will want to accept the offer. And what do you do when you have a thousand refugees that want out?

Overall, it seems like a bad move, particularly since we'll supposedly be liberating them in short order anyway.
 
I do expect Serena to curb-stomp single Class 3 demons, judging by the GM's response to this omake:
Very nice. This would probably rank as a Class 5 rather than Class 4. (Though mostly because Homura's presence would basically dictate the course of the fight against a 4.)
Serena is an anti-demon Legendary, so she has to be at least as effective as Homura at fighting demons, which suggests she can take a lone Class 4 demon with some risk of casualties and should just crush a Class 3, especially if we load them up with charms. The initial mobbing by teleporters would be a problem, but Nagoya's attack strategies suggest that they often take a while to show up and do so one at a time, so as long as they're prepared to retreat by teleportation charms it shouldn't be a problem. Still worth having Clairvoyants in the area tracking things.

The Beholder continues to be the real problem. Sending Kyouclone should help significantly, since it won't matter if she does something stupid and dies and she's an actual Elite before the Aura boost.

Here's a thought: We could have people making charms in Serena's Aura as part of the preparation. The charms should get the same boost as actually having them present casting spells and it doesn't matter much if they keep getting distracted since they're not in a fight at the time.
 
@inverted_helix So I'm curious. Does the morale resistance to Serena's aura also apply to the transformed level? Or is it purely a matter of tolerance?
The safe limit is the same for both the transformed and untransformed states, including the effects of morale.
You're conflating two balance concerns is the issue. The legendaries are all big balance issues for me that require a lot of attention. This is meant to be a hard mode quest you know, I can't give you something that just switches quest to easy mode.

The exposure issues is what balanced her recruitment difficulty with the others. The ineffectiveness of people in her aura is what balances her combat strength with the others.

Without the ineffectiveness manpower would allow you to scale up her strength far beyond any of the other legendaries.

No difference she's noticed, though she doesn't spend a whole lot of time that way anyways. (OOC I'm not going to hit you again on that point so don't worry about that, this is a sort of drug that's exposure and individual related rather than intensity of the drug use.)
 
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