Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

[Aranfan]

What we need are a larger range of tactics, so that we can change tactics more frequently and still leave demons unprepared for earlier ones, and to do more in-depth studies of how quickly demons respond to the pressure of adapting to new tactics. Maybe we'd be better off changing tactics every five days rather than every week, so long as the new tactics aren't something the demons have seen in the past 15 days, for example.

If we can improve the RT demon power increase to 1/3 overhunt, or even 2/5 rather than 1/2 overhunt, we could significantly improve our returns on the upswing.

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Yeah, finding out the optimal time to rotate is pretty important. It seems like the best way to refine RT, or at least the lowest hanging fruit. We should do some experiments to that effect, although to actually do them we'd have to chop the territory up into so many sub plots that it would be a nightmare for Helix to handle the math.

Incidentally, while our current method with rotating tactics is pretty clearly a two field rotation, the sort of thing you were advocating to experiment with involving massive overhunts to DS+30 strike me as a form of 3 field rotation. Massive Overhunt to DS+30 , -20 fallow month of no hunting to DS+10, underhunt to DS+0, repeat. Depending on how long it takes for these cat 3 demons to form, that might be a viable way to do that sort of farming. IIRC, Helix said something to the effect that DS growth slows down as it gets higher, so the math would heavily depend on how that changes.

 

[TheEyes]

Well, that would have to be a GM call. Though note that I didn't expect it to have any effect on the RT casualty rate modifier. I expected it to create a new hunting mode (call it 'team' or whatever) to add to pack/pair/solo, possibly with a different base casualty modifier, but also with a different harvest modifier.

By using selectively optimized teams, you could send 1 person to fight A, 2 people to fight B, and 3 people to fight C, rather than always sending the entire pack of 6 to each fight, if you're able to determine who is best suited to each fight. Alternatively, if compared with solo, you can send pairs or triplets to fights where it would be more effective than a long, drug-out fight with a solo that's not suited to that particular battle.

It's a bit like the balance of pairs vs solos or packs, but further optimized.

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Hm. That is actually very interesting, because such a system might accidentally give us an improved RT-like demon strength reduction. Consider: demons evolve using pseudo-Lamarckian evolution, such that new demons that are produced have attributes that counter the tactics that killed the last demon in the area. If we then choose a tactic specifically to counter the new demon, it will by necessity be a different tactic to the one that killed the previous batch. And so on, proceeding around a list of defined tactics. The end result would be an improved RT effect, combined with a lowered casualty modifier; the only problem would be that you'd need your scout team to be able to evaluate the demons quickly, and the hunt teams trained well enough that they can cover a wide range of possible tactics, as outlined by the scout teams.

BTW, I note you are talking about our scout teams like they're still traveling around on foot, but they're not: we're using a clairvoyant-based system these days. The ones that will need the mopeds are our hunters, especially the rural and nomadic ones, or the ones hunting far from our home base, along with our couriers.

Yeah, finding out the optimal time to rotate is pretty important. We should do some experiments to that effect, although to actually do them we'd have to chop the territory up into so many sub plots that it would be a nightmare for Helix to handle the math.

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If @inverted_helix agrees I think it would be better to just model it as a grief cube cost, as we have for other research, but this time the cost is in lowered GC production in the territories being used for research rather than GCs being spent by meguca to compensate for magic use.

Incidentally, while our current method with rotating tactics is pretty clearly a two field rotation, the sort of thing you were advocating to experiment with involving massive overhunts to DS+30 strike me as a form of 3 field rotation. Massive Overhunt to DS+30 , DS-20 fallow month, underhunt to DS+0, repeat. Depending on how long it takes for these cat 3 demons to form, that might be a viable way to do that sort of farming. IIRC, Helix said something to the effect that DS growth slows down as it gets higher, so the math would heavily depend on how that changes.

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Yeah, we'll need to be very, very careful there, and only try this sort of approach when we have enough Elites around that we can handle any Class 3+s that come by.

 

[Kinematics]

Alternatively, it can be considered a basic optimization on top of the normal tactic choices. For example, instead of +30% cubes/-1% casualties for the dispatch, it might be +50% cubes/-3% casualties, or whatever.

Really, while it's a general improvement, we're at a point where we gain almost nothing from casualty reduction modifiers, except in extraordinary events (wars, superdemons, DS boost from poaching, etc). Thematically it's an important step, but in practical terms I can't say that we'd actually gain anything at all unless we get a new harvest modifier from the new hunting mode, or are able to bring Solo hunting down to usable levels for vets (which requires -8% casualty rates).

If we have to increase our upkeep costs by 2 meguca units to gain those benefits, we'd lose the equivalent of going from Pairs to Solo hunting, which is huge. So yes, whatever benefits comes out of advanced battle training and tactics would have to be carefully considered.

Hm. That is actually very interesting, because such a system might accidentally give us an improved RT-like demon strength reduction. Consider: demons evolve using pseudo-Lamarckian evolution, such that new demons that are produced have attributes that counter the tactics that killed the last demon in the area. If we then choose a tactic specifically to counter the new demon, it will by necessity be a different tactic to the one that killed the previous batch. And so on, proceeding around a list of defined tactics. The end result would be an improved RT effect, combined with a lowered casualty modifier; the only problem would be that you'd need your scout team to be able to evaluate the demons quickly, and the hunt teams trained well enough that they can cover a wide range of possible tactics, as outlined by the scout teams.

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Interesting take. Yes, it could very well count as a souped-up RT, rather than hindering RT from working.

BTW, I note you are talking about our scout teams like they're still traveling around on foot, but they're not: we're using a clairvoyant-based system these days. The ones that will need the mopeds are our hunters, especially the rural and nomadic ones, or the ones hunting far from our home base, along with our couriers.

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Yeah, I wasn't sure about that.

 

[Elder Haman]

BTW, I note you are talking about our scout teams like they're still traveling around on foot, but they're not: we're using a clairvoyant-based system these days

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Actually the clairvoyant scouting team does have to move around to scout, and they are on bicycles.


Also, I was thinking about writing an omake about Mami persuading Kyouko that helping Seto is the right move, but am too tired. Had a bit of a fever this weekend.

Anyway, I figure the clinching argument is that if we don't help Seto, and Seto gets killed, then that means we now have to deal with a super demon with Elite level flicker! And stealth, and healing... yeah... that would be bad.

 

[inverted_helix]

The Aberrant

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Very nice. This would probably rank as a Class 5 rather than Class 4. (Though mostly because Homura's presence would basically dictate the course of the fight against a 4.)

You'll get a small pile of rewards for this quality. Starting with some more information which should calm people a little bit.

@inverted_helix does that sound about right?

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While this is a reasonable classification system it's not quite right.

The classification system the Incubators are using in this is a tad more gradated (though still not very precise). It's based off of threat magnitude. Basics of how they label them:

Class 0: Baseline, essentially no threat by itself against a Contracted, even in numbers.
Class 1: Minor threat against Grade 1 Contracted.
Class 2: Potentially threaten 100,000 human territory. Major threat against Grade 1 Contracted, minor against Grade 2 Contracted.
Class 3: Potentially threaten 1,000,000 human territory. Recommend multiple Grade 3 contracted.
Class 4: Potentially threaten 10,000,000 human territory. Recommend minimum 15 Grade 3 contracted. Enticement of Grade 4 Contracted authorized. Elimination of food source may be considered.
Class 5: Potentially threaten 100,000,000 human territory. Recommend enticement of Grade 4 Contracted. If not possible or the contracted fails, elimination of food source is authorized.

They don't tend to burn out on their own, but instead just keep moving. Even at high levels dense enough human populations are enough to sustain them in a filter feeder method.

Note that this does not mean that you get 1 Legendary per 100,000,000 humans, it just means at that point Elites are not effective enough to really make it reasonable for them to combat the threat and trying to bribe a Legendary to go deal with it is better.

This also means that when Kyuubey says that multiple Elites are recommended for dealing with a Class 3, he means more along the lines of 3 elites. You need to keep in mind their scale is designed from when large groups didn't exist. A Class 3 demon would normally be dealt with by a temporary alliance of the elites in a territory and perhaps some of the vets. It's somewhat less dangerous to large groups than it would have been to the singletons and pairs and such of the past.

Though admittedly the Incubator perspective is that the amount of Contracted was enough so long as the demon ended up dead.

That seems a little high in terms of elites, at least in our experience. I guess it sort of begs the question of why our vets don't have a chance of becoming elites by themselves the way they seem to in wild areas.

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Elite requires a degree of natural talent. That natural talent makes you more likely to survive long enough to become a veteran and then an elite. The churn of constant deaths is a selective pressure that kills the weaker more often than the stronger. This means you get more elites in a standing population than if you just picked out 50 meguca and followed them from contracting to death.

Hm. That is actually very interesting, because such a system might accidentally give us an improved RT-like demon strength reduction. Consider: demons evolve using pseudo-Lamarckian evolution, such that new demons that are produced have attributes that counter the tactics that killed the last demon in the area. If we then choose a tactic specifically to counter the new demon, it will by necessity be a different tactic to the one that killed the previous batch. And so on, proceeding around a list of defined tactics. The end result would be an improved RT effect, combined with a lowered casualty modifier; the only problem would be that you'd need your scout team to be able to evaluate the demons quickly, and the hunt teams trained well enough that they can cover a wide range of possible tactics, as outlined by the scout teams.

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They don't just immediately abandon all adaptations for previous tactics to adjust to the last one used.

If @inverted_helix agrees I think it would be better to just model it as a grief cube cost, as we have for other research, but this time the cost is in lowered GC production in the territories being used for research rather than GCs being spent by meguca to compensate for magic use.

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Hmm might consider this.

 

[Kinematics]

Trepidation


Kaoru sat on the short couch in the back of the living room, leaning over an untouched iced drink. A small sigh escaped her lips as she listened to the active chatter with half an ear.

"... need to pull teams 3 and 4 off patrol. We'll need Yui and Aiko on this."

"... Class 3? What the hell does that even mean?"

"... million deaths ..."

"Has anyone seen Sayaka? She was supposed to be on duty today. Dammit, if she got bored and wandered off to the music store again..."

...

So much commotion and activity usually wasn't seen except on major party days. The tenseness in the atmosphere belied that, though. A small request for help from a nearby group, and suddenly the Serene's house had become SDF central command.

Kaoru already knew what her duty would be, so there was no need for her to get in the way of all the people working support, trying to organize the teams and make sure everyone was battle-ready. Her job was to use her powers to help counter the aura of despair that this monstrous creature had, that apparently crippled most veteran meguca.

But only for the test run. A test, to see if she was capable. A test, a test, a test, like so many others that she'd been through over the last couple months. Kyouko and Mami, both spending their precious time trying to train her, to tease out that oh-so-hidden talent from within, that sadly still remained hidden.

They had to know whether they could count on her to help in this crisis, or if they'd have to shuffle her back out to the rest of the secondary teams — those waiting, and hoping to help, but who would be unable to without Kaoru's support. Barrier shields to protect the fighters, teleporters to ensure safety, clairvoyants to break through the stealth — all of them useless if she couldn't do her job.

Mami claimed Kaoru had talent, and that she believed in the young songstress, but the disasters of her training in the previous month sucked all of her confidence away.

She set the glass down on the table as the rattling of the ice cubes showed the nervousness that ate at her.

'Elite' — a word to designate talent: those who could be trusted, relied on, counted upon in times of crisis. That word was dangled in front of her not too long ago, and she jumped at the opportunity. After all, hers was a talent that should be obvious to everybody!

And perhaps it could make her strong enough to stand up to the memories that still haunted her — of Hitomi, an experienced veteran, dying in a chaotic fight, Kaoru's own injuries preventing her from doing anything to stop it.

Yet there was a side to it that she had never considered before. Kyouko beat them to within an inch of their life as part of her 'training'. Before, she thought it was just so much reckless abuse, but with the looming threat of a creature that they needed every single elite in the Organization just to fight, much less have a chance at beating... Kyouko's words held a much more terrible weight, now. It's not just about being strong enough to survive, or even strong enough to protect one or two other people.

No, to be an elite, you had to be strong enough to stand on the front lines and protect every single person behind you, no matter what the threat. You had people that depended on you, not as a cog in the machine, but as a gleaming light in the darkness.

And across the room from her, a dozen girls running back and forth in a frenzy, every single one of them counted on her, Kaoru, to be one of those great lights. She hadn't even gotten the seal of approval from Mami or Kyouko, but they still expected things from her. They believed in her. They trusted her.

Standing in front of a crowd, singing your heart out, was similar. The audience trusted you to do your best to entertain. But failure there merely got you boo'd off of stage, and as long as you put all your effort into it, you at least got partial credit.

But there was no partial credit on the battlefield, and if you failed, people died.

Could she face them again, if she failed? If, because she was not able to support the other fighters, one of their precious leaders — their precious friends — fell, because they had to fight on their own?

Once, long ago, Mami had comforted her after a traumatic accident where her foolish exuberance and recklessness caused her to spear another of her hunting team mid-battle. It had nearly crushed her, and Mami had spent four of their precious grief cubes keeping her alive. When asked why, later, Mami had just told her, "I'll never let any of my friends die if I can help it. Ever. No matter what happens, I'll always strive to be there to pull them out of the darkness."

That moment felt like it was important, as if it held a spark of enlightenment just barely outside Kaoru's grasp. She... she needed to hold onto it, today. To remember that she wasn't just showing off, fighting a monster and proving her strength. But to remember what she was there for — all the hunters, and workers, and .. every puella magi...

Kaoru jolted as a hand slammed down on her shoulder. She looked up to see Taya, her fellow commiserator under Kyouko's care. A wan smile crossed Kaoru's face.

"Hey," Taya said, a gentle smile forming as Kaoru looked up. Rather than say anything, though, she slipped down onto the couch next to Kaoru and pulled her into a half hug.

A few minutes later, a simple whisper: "Don't worry. You'll do fine."

 

[TheEyes]

Elite requires a degree of natural talent. That natural talent makes you more likely to survive long enough to become a veteran and then an elite. The churn of constant deaths is a selective pressure that kills the weaker more often than the stronger. This means you get more elites in a standing population than if you just picked out 50 meguca and followed them from contracting to death.

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On the other hand, the lone Legendary known to exist (Homohomu) started out so weak that it took the combined efforts of Mami, Sayaka, and Madoka to keep her alive long enough to train out of being Green. She got to Legendary status not really through natural talent, but by hard work and "lucking" into a power that let her Groundhog Day until she got powerful.

Then again, I suppose the ability to work hard, and work in the right direction, is a talent all its own, though one a lot more common than people tend to think.

They don't just immediately abandon all adaptations for previous tactics to adjust to the last one used.

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Well sure, in fact it'd make a great deal of sense for the drop-off at the tail end to be markedly slower than counters at the front-end. At the same time, the demons would have to lose the adaptations to previous tactics at some point, otherwise demon strength would never decrease and we'd be seeing the equivalent of Class 3s everywhere in a few months.

I expect an in-dept research project into Improved RT to consist of modeling both the rate of ability gains and the rate of ability losses. Both would be important variables that we can maximize, and it seems to me that this should actually have some benefit on the downcycle areas the same way it should on the upcycle areas.

Actually this whole line of inquiry seems more exciting to me than our range of enchanting options, mostly because I'm skeptical that research topic is leading anywhere other than more -% equipment, which will be nice against these Class 3+ events but probably not useful for our normal month-to-month operations. I guess we'll need to continue it all anyway, given that we'll probably be seeing more of these super-demons arriving from the Tokyo and Nagoya Deathscapes in the future, but I think improving RT is going to be a better way of fundamentally increasing our territory

Oh, that reminds me! Can we record the battle against this Class 3? We might be able to use it for future recruiting!

 

[inverted_helix]

On the other hand, the lone Legendary known to exist (Homohomu) started out so weak that it took the combined efforts of Mami, Sayaka, and Madoka to keep her alive long enough to train out of being Green. She got to Legendary status not really through natural talent, but by hard work and "lucking" into a power that let her Groundhog Day until she got powerful.

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All Meguca start out at Green. And I don't know how you can describe the ability to Groundhog Day indefinitely as anything but ridiculous.

Read some groundhog day fanfictions. Watch the groundhog day movie. You can use that power to do a credible impression of a god.

Well sure, in fact it'd make a great deal of sense for the drop-off at the tail end to be markedly slower than counters at the front-end.

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Yes this was my point. The paragraph of yours I quoted just implied that you expected it to be immediate.

mostly because I'm skeptical that research topic is leading anywhere other than more -% equipment

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Many of the research items are more abstract and long term bonuses yeah. They're less crunchy bonuses. You might look at one of the other civilization quests for an idea of how they have effects.

Was a bit hesitant to give the extra information from Kyuubey since only two people said okay to the cost, but no one else seems to comment on it.

 

[TheEyes]

Was a bit hesitant to give the extra information from Kyuubey since only two people said okay to the cost, but no one else seems to comment on it.

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Well, count me as another yes to the cost, then. Also:

[X] Share this new information with Seto, ask her to specifically describe what abilities the girls who got killed had, possible counters to those abilities, etc.
-[X] Suggest splitting any extra cube cost evenly between our two groups, and also split the extra reward Kyubey is offering in half as well.
[X] Pay Kyubey the 3 cubes (ask Seto for 1.5 cubes) for an assessment of the demon's abilities
-[X] Specifically ask Kyubey if Karou's emotional manipulation ability will allow us to counter the demons negative emotion ability and increase the effectiveness of veterans in her group.
-[X] Specifically describe the Pack Hunting tactics we are currently planning (Veteran barriers, clairvoyants, and teleporters cycling the injured out to be healed, while the Elites focus on attacking the demon). Expected effectiveness and casualty probabilities? Compare this plan to exclusively hunting with Elites. Do the Incubators have any suggested tactics (things that other girls have successfully used against them).
-[X] Try to get a little more info on how and why these Class 3+ demons spawn. Is it due to high population density? High meguca population density? Extreme overhunting in a local territory? Extreme use of specific tactics?

 

[inverted_helix]

Definitely the final information post, make your battle plan.​

Seto is if anything further discouraged by the information you share with her, dredging up thoughts of those she's lost doesn't help much. The green from the missing hunting pair had very little of note, gauntlets as her weapons and limited to melee attacks, a risky life. The vet with her had simple energy attacks projected from a wand. While the vet with Seto besides the healer was just an archer.

Seto can afford to pay half of Kyuubey's price, but with as much force deployment as your plan calls for she really doesn't think she can afford covering half the grief cube cost of fighting the demon. Her group is much smaller than yours and they only have 13 grief cube units total. You're free to have all of the extra reward though for what it's worth, she knows the help you're offering is her only chance.

Approximately an hour after you agree to Kyuubey's price he returns with his assessment.

The demon has stealth capabilities comparable to an Elite specializing in stealth. More specifically it bends electromagnetic waves around itself in a bubble which is large enough to encompass its extremities. Particulates do not appear to much impair this function.

It does not appear to possess any ranged weaponry at this time, but has incorporated significant regeneration.

Calculation of the result of one emotional effect interacting with another is not guaranteed to be accurate due to inherent ambiguity of measurements. Based on observation of Kaoru's effect, she may be capable of reducing loss in combat effectiveness from 30% to 15%, for a time. It is unlikely she will be capable of maintaining the effect for long. Likewise cube consumption to maintain existence in the field for Veterans will likely be reduced to .1 units per minute per veteran from .2.

Your plan to rely on grinding down the demon over a long period with a large group is ill-advised. The emotional effect it exerts on Contracted in its miasma is more accurately described as a drain which is capable of feeding the demon. It is therefore unlikely to run out of energy while drawing from a large number of Veterans.

You can assuredly overwhelm its regeneration with such a large force and rapidly destroy it, quite possibly even in the first strike. However if it succeeds in baiting you into a prolonged fight, the odds turn against you.

A smaller group of Elites would be more suitable to such a tactic, as they will be largely immune to the drain effect and not supply it enough energy to endure. The Elites of your group along with the expected presence of Seto should be more than sufficient force to destroy the demon.

Methods to deal with this class of demon vary. In the past temporarily alliances of independent Elite Contracted from an area would form in order to deal with the threat, sometimes employing Veterans or Greens whether willingly or by coercion. Historical data indicates 3 Elites are capable of eliminating 70% of Class 3 demons. Expected casualties 40%.

Currently with the advent of larger organizations three methods appear to have emerged. After normalizing for difference in force sizes: Deployment of Elites alone results in moderate casualties and the lowest grief cube expenditures. It also allows for slow protracted battles emphasizing caution. Deployment of large numbers of veterans without Elite support tends towards heavy casualties and large grief cube expenditures but minimal damage to ruling structure, such a methodology does not seem sustainable however. Deployment of Veterans and Elites as you are considering is the third option; casualties are generally minimized, while grief cube expenditure is still quite high. However if supply of grief cubes fails, casualty rates amongst Veterans will rise rapidly. Any battle utilizing Veteran forces is therefore constrained in tactics and must be aggressive.

Original Class 3 demons typically arise from extreme overhunting as you have surmised. However when they have consumed enough Contracted they are able to split. This divides the powers possessed by the progenitor and therefore reduces the individual threat of the offspring. In some cases they do not split and eventually reach Class 4 status when they have consumed enough Contracted. It is not clear what dictates whether they split or simply continue to accumulate power. Feeding off of humans alone can sustain Class 3 and Class 4 demons in sufficient numbers, but cannot allow them to gain power or replicate. If human population is diminished it can cause them to starve.

 

[Aranfan]

Okay, going by that I think we want to try blitzing it with all our Elites and with our Vets supported by Kaoru's song.

The casualty numbers Kyubey gives for 3 elites going it alone means we can probably get away with just losing the Kyoclone if we get lucky, but I'd rather not chance one of our non-expendable elites dying. Hence my support for bringing large numbers to bear, since QB says that minimizes casualties.

Edit:

While we will be shouldering the cube cost for the this, I still think we should split the reward evenly with Seto. It will help get and stay on her good side. With RT we have the excess production.

 

[TheEyes]

Original Class 3 demons typically arise from extreme overhunting as you have surmised.

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Damn! Is there any way we can get Kyuubey to tell us what DS-level, and how long that level needs to be sustained, before we need to start worrying about Class 3s? I would rather not have to discover that empirically, and the Incubators have mountains of historical data.

Anyway, we can't grind it down with vets because it sucks down energy from vets to power itself. OTOH a modified version of my earlier plan should work.

[X] Plan Alpha Strike

Note: everyone in Team 1+2, plus barrier girls in 3 are in full kevlar+shields; everyone else is as armored up as we can get them.

Team 1 - Point/Grind
Mami (sniper)
Kyouko (stealth, melee)
Kyouko clone (melee/scout point)
Taya (scout/fighter)
Seto (fighter/teleporter)
Kaoru (AOE emotional protection)
Yui (barrier)
Aiko (barrier)

Team 2 - Alpha Strike
(Seto's archer)
(barrier)
(barrier)
(sniper)
(sniper)
Shinobu (teleporter)

Team 3 - Evac/healing/scouting (outside of miasma)
Sayaka (healer)
Seto's healer
(barrier)
(barrier)
(clairvoyant)
(clairvoyant)
(clairvoyant)
Taura (telepath)
(teleporter #2)
(teleporter #3)

First off, get our barrier girls to test out tandem/overlapping barriers, make sure all six of them can easily pair up to make high-strength barriers to hopefully protect against this Class 3.

So, the plan is to have Taura and every clairvoyant we have (including Taya) work to pinpoint the demon, staying outside the miasma so they can't be drained. Once we have the demon pinpointed we send in Teams 1 and 2 for an alpha strike: as massive a ranged strike as we can pack into 20 seconds (have Shinobu use a stopwatch), with four overlapping barrier girls and Kaoru singing (cost 0.3 grief cubes).

(Edit) If we can't pinpoint the demon from outside the miasma then we send in Team 1 as a probe. The moment they make contact we have Shinobu teleport in Team 2, along with Teleporter #2 for the 20-second alpha strike.

After the alpha strike Shinobu (or Teleporter #2, if Shinobu is too tired) teleports Team 2 out of the miasma and the plan transitions into Grind Mode, where our four elites grind down the demon, supported by dual barriers with Team 3 swapping in barrier girls when they get tired and evac people who need healing (cost 0.3 cubes/min). Be very careful to keep the outside teams away from the miasma, even dispersing them if needed since the Class 3 can maneuver towards concentrations of meguca.

 

[Diomedea]

Okay, going by that I think we want to try blitzing it with all our Elites and with our Vets supported by Kaoru's song.

The casualty numbers Kyubey gives for 3 elites going it alone means we can probably get away with just losing the Kyoclone if we get lucky, but I'd rather not chance one of our non-expendable elites dying. Hence my support for bringing large numbers to bear, since QB says that minimizes casualties.

Edit:

While we will be shouldering the cube cost for the this, I still think we should split the reward evenly with Seto. It will help get and stay on her good side. With RT we have the excess production.

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I agree with both points. Also, if the initial blitz is failing and it looks like we are being drawn into a protracted fight, we can have our Vets fall back as well (since they'll switch from an asset to being a power source for the Demon's regen).

 

[TheEyes]

While we will be shouldering the cube cost for the this, I still think we should split the reward evenly with Seto. It will help get and stay on her good side. With RT we have the excess production.

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I'm actually hoping after this we can convince Seto and her group to join ours. She's short-handed now, and given Tokyo's proximity she's likely to keep seeing these rogue Class 3s on an increasing basis; her group's going to need help to deal with that.

 

[Sereg]

Agreed. We want her to see us as in an extremely positive light.

Also, we need to hit it with as much as possible, as quickly as possible if it'll win a war of attrition.

 

[Aranfan]

I'm actually hoping after this we can convince Seto and her group to join ours. She's short-handed now, and given Tokyo's proximity she's likely to keep seeing these rogue Class 3s on an increasing basis; her group's going to need help to deal with that.

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I'll agree with that, but if Seto refuses to join then we should split the reward evenly.

 

[Elder Haman]

Damn! Is there any way we can get Kyuubey to tell us what DS-level, and how long that level needs to be sustained, before we need to start worrying about Class 3s? I would rather not have to discover that empirically, and the Incubators have mountains of historical data.

Anyway, we can't grind it down with vets because it sucks down energy from vets to power itself. OTOH a modified version of my earlier plan should work.

[X] Plan Alpha Strike

Team 1 - Point/Grind
Mami (sniper)
Kyouko (stealth, melee)
Kyouko clone (melee/scout point)
Taya (scout/fighter)
Seto (fighter/teleporter)
Kaoru (AOE emotional protection)
Yui (barrier)
Aiko (barrier)

Team 2 - Alpha Strike
(Seto's archer)
(barrier)
(barrier)
(sniper)
(sniper)
Shinobu (teleporter)

Team 3 - Evac/healing/scouting (outside of miasma)
Sayaka (healer)
Seto's healer
(barrier)
(barrier)
(clairvoyant)
(clairvoyant)
(clairvoyant)
Taura (telepath)
(teleporter #2)

First off, get our barrier girls to test out overlapping barriers, make sure all six of them can easily pair up to make high-strength barriers to hopefully protect against this Class 3.

So, the plan is to have Taura and every clairvoyant we have work to pinpoint the demon, staying outside the miasma so they can't be drained. Once we have the demon pinpointed we send in Teams 1 and 2 for an alpha strike: as massive a ranged strike as we can pack into 20 seconds (have Shinobu use a stopwatch), with four overlapping barrier girls and Kaoru singing (cost 0.3 grief cubes).

After that Shinobu teleports Team 2 out of the miasma and the plan transitions into Grind Mode, where our four elites grind down the demon, supported by dual barriers with Team 3 swapping in barrier girls when they get tired and evac people who need healing (cost 0.3 cubes/min). Be very careful to keep the outside teams away from the miasma, even dispersing them if needed since the Class 3 can maneuver towards concentrations of meguca.

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Huh... that's not a good plan. That puts Kaoru with the Elites, when she needs to be with the Vets.

A reordering of the plan will be this:

[X] Elite Team:

Mami (w/ full Kevlar)
Kyouko (w/ full Kevlar)
Kyouko Clone (w/ full Kevlar)
Taya (w/ full Kevlar)
Seto

[X] Veteran Team:

Karou (w/ full Kevlar)
Serene Barrier Girls x3 (w/ full Kevlar x3)
Serene Clairvoyants x3 (w/ full Kevlar x3)
Serene Teleporters x3 (w/ full Kevlar x3)
Serene Powerful Combat Vets x2 (w/ full Kevlar x2)

Each Teleporter is assigned 1 Barrier, 1 Clairvoyant, and 1 Combat/Kaoru. So the team is divided into 3 squads of 4 each.

[X] Healer Team (well outside the miasma):

Serene Barrier Girls x3
Seto's Shielder (Vet)
Seto's Shielder (Green)
Seto's Healer (Vet)
Seto's Healer (Green)
Serene Healers x4

There are then three possible strategies we can use.

[X] 1: Elites and Vets launch initial attack, if the demon is not killed in the first strike the vets then retreat (via teleport) and the elites go into cautious grind mode. This requires only one long distance teleport with each teleporter having to take a total of 4 people (counting herself).

2: Elites attack at first and use cautious tactics. Once the demon is greatly weakened, the vets team teleports in and both elites and vets go aggressive to finish it off quickly.

3: Elites use cautious tactics and try to defeat the demon by themselves. Veteran team is outside the miasma on standby. They are only there to provide emergency reinforcements in case something goes wrong (critical member of the Elite Team is killed or crippled, thereby taking them out of action).

[X] For all of the variants the healer team is on standby in another location where teleporters can take the injured too to be healed. Seto might bring injured Elites here and then bring them back to the battle, if possible. For Vets it's more about getting them healed after the battle, and so hopefully reducing permanent casualties.

I prefer we go with plan three.

 

[Aranfan]

I'm pretty sure I'd prefer a massive alpha strike over keeping the vets in reserve.

 

[TheEyes]

Huh... that's not a good plan. That puts Kaoru with the Elites, when she needs to be with the Vets.

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I think you're mis-reading my plan. Team 1 and 2 are going to be a joint alpha strike team, with Kaoru boosting everyone. After the initial strike Team 2 evacuates the miasma via teleport (Shinobu already demonstrated multiple 7-meguca teleports during the rescue op, so this one shouldn't be so bad) and doesn't come back in (except maybe the barrier-girls as necessary); we want to keep Kaoru in the miasma to boost up our barrier girls (all of whom are non-Elites), so I left her in Team 1.

 

[TheEyes]

@inverted_helix do our barrier-girls already know how to do overlapping/tandem barriers, or do we need to invest in training time for that? We might need to drop one of our diplomacy actions, should the later be the case; I want to really emphasize the barrier training, and maybe do some extra research/training into stronger barriers later on, if these Class 3s are going to be a semi-regular thing from now on.

 

[Elder Haman]

I'm pretty sure I'd prefer a massive alpha strike over keeping the vets in reserve.

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Elites can use cautious tactics. Vets can not.

If we wanted to do it with Vets we ought to brings the entire team and kill it quickly.

However, we will take significant casualties.

If we want to try and take it with no casualties, then we should let the elites handle it.

I think it is still a good a idea to have a large vet force in reserve in case something goes wrong, but if we use vets girls will die.

EDIT: I mean, how many times does the GM have to say it: Use only elites. Vets will take massive casualties. Vets are less effective. Kyubey recommends only elites.

I can take a hint if you hit me with it strong enough.

The GM is coming out very strongly against using Vets at all, so I think they should definitely be regulated to plan B status.

 

[Elder Haman]

I mean, Kyubey was talking about 40% casualties with only Elites. Maybe using cautious tactics we can reduce that.

If we bring Vets as well? Well I fully expect that over half the Vets will die.

And vets cannot use cautious tactics.

Do you all want half our vets to die? Can we absorb that kind of loss?

Kaoru dead. Akeno dead. Aiko dead. Shinobu dead.

That is what we are facing if we use the Vets. Go read helix's posts again. He's all but promised us massive casualties if we use vets.

 

[Elder Haman]

I think you're mis-reading my plan. Team 1 and 2 are going to be a joint alpha strike team, with Kaoru boosting everyone. After the initial strike Team 2 evacuates the miasma via teleport (Shinobu already demonstrated multiple 7-meguca teleports during the rescue op, so this one shouldn't be so bad) and doesn't come back in (except maybe the barrier-girls as necessary); we want to keep Kaoru in the miasma to boost up our barrier girls (all of whom are non-Elites), so I left her in Team 1.

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I completely understood your plan.

I'm saying that is a horrible plan that will end up with Kaoru dead, and half our vets dead too.

 

[landcollector]

I completely understood your plan.

I'm saying that is a horrible plan that will end up with Kaoru dead, and half our vets dead too.

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That's not even taking into account the potential losses to Grief Spiraling in the aftermath even should it succeed. No matter what, SIMP would likely cease to exist as a cohesive group and the remnants would scatter.

 

[Elder Haman]

Well I re-read it again, and I see that all of you are looking at the ending that says minimized casualties with an combined force that goes for a quick end. I guess "minimized" just seems rather vague to me compared to the 40% for Elites.

I guess I can switch to that model (option 1 listed above in my plan) but I just want people to realize there is real risk here, and I am frankly terrified that our girls are going to die.

EDIT: I will also not support any plan that leaves any vets behind if we switch to the slow grind model after the alpha strike.