We should have time if it can be done within a couple hours. However it's a good point; we do need know that the barrier users can stack their shields before using them this way.
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
In fairness it seemed to make sense. The majority of the force and therefore risk. You're helping her out, it's just that most of your plans ran to huge force deployments, and given how many grief cubes her own party used it didn't seem likely she'd be able to afford that cost.
And I shall. The drain effect is only applied to Vets at all, Elites aren't drained. As to the negative to combat effectiveness, Elites are only reduced to about 95% effectiveness.
Yay this finally occurred to someone. I've been beating players over the head with a clue bat since the poachers demonstrated it. Tandem casting is a possible training. Now that a player has said it I'll draw up stats. It's more useful for certain things than others since it's generally slower but stronger.
At this time Barrier girls used multiply is just going to be layered one inside another.
I said at the start you guys could decide to delay reacting to this. (Though there would of course be consequences. I mean you could even have just hung her out to dry, though even if it wasn't likely to attack you later in that case I deemed it unlikely given past player choices.)
So for clarity since it seems to have been ambiguous and that's on me.
Grief Cube Costs: Vets only > Vets + Elites >> Elites
Casualty rate: Vets only > Elites > Vets + Elites
Normalizing for group size is what I meant really. Vets + Elites has less casualties because any given group can bring much more substantial firepower to bear at once with Vets and Elites than with Elites alone. (I mean obviously 20 elites is going to do better than 5 elites and 15 vets.)
Also keep in mind what Kyuubey says has to be taken from an Incubator perspective. To him the existence of Elites is largely to counter high Class demons. And in turn it's their existence which curtails the number of Elites from just building up and up over time (as new contracts replace those that didn't have the potential to reach elite status and elite meguca largely don't die to normal demons whereas mere veterans do).
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I am not in favor of delaying, that means this wraith will kill more people.
I am very strongly in favor of having the army go out against this asshole now that it's been confirmed to have been the safest method.
I am very strongly in favor of having the army go out against this asshole now that it's been confirmed to have been the safest method.
Well, any chance we can get tandem barrier training done before attacking the demon? Stronger protection seems like a very good idea to me.
OK, with this clarification, the use of Kaoru to supplement the elite team is no longer a reasonable choice (though there may still be value if we bring in a full complement of vets).
I'm going to ponder whether I want to stay with the elite + alpha strike only, or if I want to side with a full commit.
The problem with a full commit is that it's generally the best choice for Class 3s, but in this particular case we'd just be throwing a bunch of regen-fodder for the Class 3 to munch on in a protracted action. I say alpha strike is the way to go this time.
If we can spend some time teaching the 6 barrier-vets how to tandem-cast, then I'd say it's worth having Kaoru+2 barrier girls stay inside the miasma after the alpha strike to provide protection; otherwise barring some kind of mid-fight breakthrough by Kaoru (it would be sweet if this was the kicker that put her over the edge into Elite status, or Shinobu to have a breakthrough for Elite-potential!) she and the barrier-girls should probably also evacuate after the alpha strike.
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Oh, hey, just noticed something on review. From Turn 18 (emphasis mine)
For 8 months now we've had veterans detecting demons, not only from outside their miasma, but from across the city. This significantly raises the possibility of being able to detect the demon from outside the miasma, though again it would be nice if we could spend some time training tandem casting to be more sure of it.
For 8 months now we've had veterans detecting demons, not only from outside their miasma, but from across the city. This significantly raises the possibility of being able to detect the demon from outside the miasma, though again it would be nice if we could spend some time training tandem casting to be more sure of it.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I want this thing dead as soon as possible. The longer we leave it alone the more of Seto's group, and possibly ours, it's going to kill.
Unfortunately, I think this is just detecting the miasma from range, the same way Seto's been able to keep track of this demon's movements.
All we have to do is stay out of its miasma while we're training. The thing's not going to be getting any more powerful in the days it takes to train up a bit. Hell, the thing's not even in our territory yet! There might be a few mundane casualties in Seto's territory in the meantime, though. I'd judge that worth the risk, if we can complete tandem casting training and have significantly improved odds against the Class 3.
That's likely, yes, but it's still worth bringing them along, just in case someone rolls high and detects something. I'm almost tempted to bring along the entire Serenissima Imperium in the hopes that one or two of them will have breakthroughs to Elite potential, but that could be dangerous.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Helix said that delaying would have consequences. This being PMMM, I want to avoid those. As such I am strongly in favor of killing this thing quickly.
Not only barrier users, but if we could get Taya and a couple clairvoyants working in tandem, that would probably be a major boost to penetrating its stealth. However...
Deaths == Consequences, and I'm not comfortable with the prospect of exactly who those might be. For example, what if delaying led to the deaths of the family of some of Seto's group? They'd be grateful for the save, but.. probably wouldn't join us. Even without any family deaths, though, delays on our side would probably put a serious damper on any likelihood that they'd join up, just at an emotional level.
Also, it was mentioned that this shouldn't affect our own plans for the turn if we dealt with it quickly, but if we delay much that probably won't be the case. That would be a lesser penalty, though (although failure of the restaurant would be annoying).
*sigh* I'd really rather be more conservative here, but your arguments, and especially @inverted_helix rating my post "Funny", is making me think you are right.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
In your defense, I'm pretty sure that the "funny" was for the proposal to bring the entire SIMP to the fight. Not the idea of delaying to train.
OK, as a potential for full commit strategy, this is what I'm looking at. Would appreciate thoughts on strengths or weaknesses in the plan (not arguments about whether to use this plan at all; we've already discussed plenty on how to go about the Alpha Strike method).
With Kaoru's presence, and 10 vets total (which is about the limit of our kevlar), the demon would drain 1 cube per minute of fighting. We have no idea what that translates to, but can probably figure one extra meguca-worth of enemy per minute needs to be defeated (when considered with respect to the combat simulation).
I vaguely remember 1 elite being worth about 3.5 vets in combat. 10 vets would then be roughly 2.5 elites, after accounting for power reduction of 15%. Add the extra quarter-elite from lifting the 5% penalty off the existing elites, and the effective force we'd be bringing to bear would be about 7.5 elites, where 3 elites (or 2.85, with their penalty) are capable of killing a typical Class 3. The enemy would be gaining roughly +1 vet per minute, though.
Note that both deaths in Seto's group were from surprise attacks: the first from stealth, the second as Death From Above. As long as the vets can actually defend themselves, deaths should be much less likely.
If we included the vets as an active assault team, what sort of force distribution would we want?
Kaoru - AOE boost; drain mitigation
Shinobu - evac teleporter (swap with second teleporter when getting someone out; keep the healers outside)
Akeno - Inertia manipulation (useful for both offense and defense, both herself and others; her inertia manipulation should be able to bring the demon to a dead stop in case it tries another bull rush or crash landing attack; can probably also get someone out of the path of an attack faster than anyone else except perhaps Seto)
Yui+Aiko - Barriers (double-layered; provide support on demand based on fight dynamics; aim for deflection rather than directly opposing the demon to prevent feedback-knockout)
The other five slots would be our major offense on the vet side. May possibly use one slot for team coordinator, such as Taura.
All the girls listed on the first page have support-type magic. However only 24 of the 47 girls are accounted for. What sort of offensive magic do we have available? Can we come up with some random ideas, here?
Focus on high penetration power, and stuff that's not going to interfere with other girls' magic (eg: avoid AOE fire if it's going to burn Mami's ribbons that are keeping the demon tied up).
Prefer range over melee.
Am a bit fuzzy on what to choose, though; will toss out some ideas in a bit.
Do not insert the vet team until after the demon has been located, to prevent it from gaining any power until we're actually ready to fight.
Additional tactics to use:
Enter in an open area, not underneath buildings that would allow the demon to drop down on us.
On initial entry, Mami uses grass-ribbons in a wide area around the group as a secondary detection method.
Once it's detected, have Mami attach a couple of her 'undetectable' ribbons (the kind she used on Homura in Rebellion) to the demon so that it can't stealth-disappear again, as a backup for Taya's tracking.
During the fight, Mami focuses first on limiting its mobility, before sniping.
During the fight, Kyouko's primary offense is the clone, to minimize risk to her main body.
With Kaoru's presence, and 10 vets total (which is about the limit of our kevlar), the demon would drain 1 cube per minute of fighting. We have no idea what that translates to, but can probably figure one extra meguca-worth of enemy per minute needs to be defeated (when considered with respect to the combat simulation).
I vaguely remember 1 elite being worth about 3.5 vets in combat. 10 vets would then be roughly 2.5 elites, after accounting for power reduction of 15%. Add the extra quarter-elite from lifting the 5% penalty off the existing elites, and the effective force we'd be bringing to bear would be about 7.5 elites, where 3 elites (or 2.85, with their penalty) are capable of killing a typical Class 3. The enemy would be gaining roughly +1 vet per minute, though.
Note that both deaths in Seto's group were from surprise attacks: the first from stealth, the second as Death From Above. As long as the vets can actually defend themselves, deaths should be much less likely.
If we included the vets as an active assault team, what sort of force distribution would we want?
Kaoru - AOE boost; drain mitigation
Shinobu - evac teleporter (swap with second teleporter when getting someone out; keep the healers outside)
Akeno - Inertia manipulation (useful for both offense and defense, both herself and others; her inertia manipulation should be able to bring the demon to a dead stop in case it tries another bull rush or crash landing attack; can probably also get someone out of the path of an attack faster than anyone else except perhaps Seto)
Yui+Aiko - Barriers (double-layered; provide support on demand based on fight dynamics; aim for deflection rather than directly opposing the demon to prevent feedback-knockout)
The other five slots would be our major offense on the vet side. May possibly use one slot for team coordinator, such as Taura.
All the girls listed on the first page have support-type magic. However only 24 of the 47 girls are accounted for. What sort of offensive magic do we have available? Can we come up with some random ideas, here?
Focus on high penetration power, and stuff that's not going to interfere with other girls' magic (eg: avoid AOE fire if it's going to burn Mami's ribbons that are keeping the demon tied up).
Prefer range over melee.
Am a bit fuzzy on what to choose, though; will toss out some ideas in a bit.
Do not insert the vet team until after the demon has been located, to prevent it from gaining any power until we're actually ready to fight.
Additional tactics to use:
Enter in an open area, not underneath buildings that would allow the demon to drop down on us.
On initial entry, Mami uses grass-ribbons in a wide area around the group as a secondary detection method.
Once it's detected, have Mami attach a couple of her 'undetectable' ribbons (the kind she used on Homura in Rebellion) to the demon so that it can't stealth-disappear again, as a backup for Taya's tracking.
During the fight, Mami focuses first on limiting its mobility, before sniping.
During the fight, Kyouko's primary offense is the clone, to minimize risk to her main body.
I tend to favor the alpha strike then.
I just assumed we were casting layered barriers, not tandem casting.
A list of possible powers for the offense side. I have no idea if we're even allowed to add new powers to our group (usual call to @inverted_helix to clarify), however since literally none of the identified members have any offensive powers defined, I'm assuming that it just never came up, and is in the vague, "decide when it's necessary" category. It could be that there's nothing particularly special about offensive powers, and that they're just 'themes' for each magical girl, as far as the system is concerned.
Energy blade: A samurai-themed magical girl with the ability to concentrate magical energy in the blade of her sword, and let the energy loose in a swing that throws it at the opponent, tearing up anything in its path.
Energy bolts: With power commensurate with the time she spends focusing on gathering the energy together, the ability to fire bolts of raw energy at an enemy.
Water: Typically seen as blunt impact damage, the water can be focused to a razor's edge or a spear's point to carve up and pierce the enemy, and then gathered in a great mass to impede the enemy's progress.
Wood: A difficult power to master, wood is highly effective at entangling the opponent. Its true threat, though, is taking root in the opponent and draining its energy away.
Gunslinger: A versatile magical girl, she can swap out the cartridges of the guns she uses to generate a variety of elemental effects, from wind to lightning to gravity, as the situation demands.
Earth: Slower than most, she is incredibly hard to hurt, and when she hits back, you'll know it. Able to reshape the landscape at will, a favorite trick is creating a pit trap that allows her teammates to fire into it with impunity, before she attempts to seal the earth back up and crush the enemy.
Energy blade: A samurai-themed magical girl with the ability to concentrate magical energy in the blade of her sword, and let the energy loose in a swing that throws it at the opponent, tearing up anything in its path.
Energy bolts: With power commensurate with the time she spends focusing on gathering the energy together, the ability to fire bolts of raw energy at an enemy.
Water: Typically seen as blunt impact damage, the water can be focused to a razor's edge or a spear's point to carve up and pierce the enemy, and then gathered in a great mass to impede the enemy's progress.
Wood: A difficult power to master, wood is highly effective at entangling the opponent. Its true threat, though, is taking root in the opponent and draining its energy away.
Gunslinger: A versatile magical girl, she can swap out the cartridges of the guns she uses to generate a variety of elemental effects, from wind to lightning to gravity, as the situation demands.
Earth: Slower than most, she is incredibly hard to hurt, and when she hits back, you'll know it. Able to reshape the landscape at will, a favorite trick is creating a pit trap that allows her teammates to fire into it with impunity, before she attempts to seal the earth back up and crush the enemy.
Magical Girls in PMMM tend to have combat weapons, not elemental powers. Elemental powers would tend to be wish magic.
Normally it's more like:
Girl has a crossbow that fires magical bolts
Girl has a longbow and fires magical arrows
Girl has a spear, she stabs things
Girl has a dagger, she cuts things
Girl has a sword, she cuts things
Girl has brass knuckles, she hits things
Girl has a gun, she shoots things
Girl has a mace, she hits things with it
Girl has a shield, she blocks things with it (a barrier type girl without significant offensive capability)
Normally it's more like:
Girl has a crossbow that fires magical bolts
Girl has a longbow and fires magical arrows
Girl has a spear, she stabs things
Girl has a dagger, she cuts things
Girl has a sword, she cuts things
Girl has brass knuckles, she hits things
Girl has a gun, she shoots things
Girl has a mace, she hits things with it
Girl has a shield, she blocks things with it (a barrier type girl without significant offensive capability)
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Shield bashing has a very long tradition as an offensive move.
True...
I now have an image of Homura smashing things with her buckler instead of getting a golf club.
PS: Homura actually also seems to have a wand with which she can cast small bolt of purple energy. (We only see it once, very briefly).
Missed this reply earlier. Understood, though none of those powers (assuming wish-granted) seem likely to grant sufficiently powerful offense that I'd count on them being truly effective. If offensive powers are merely a theme, though, consider the objection dropped.
True. The issue was that there ought to have been some of those types among our list of available powers, if helix was doing a full power distribution, but since there wasn't, it felt more like something that just hadn't come up yet.
@Elder Haman :
Counting things up in your proposal, I see you're allocating all 16 sets of kevlar. However I'd rather have Seto in full kevlar than Kyouko's clone. If Kyouko's clone gets dispelled and re-formed, it's going to lose the kevlar anyway. Better to provide it to the important person of the group we're helping. Can always toss some leather on Kyouko's clone as a tiny extra edge.
Counting things up in your proposal, I see you're allocating all 16 sets of kevlar. However I'd rather have Seto in full kevlar than Kyouko's clone. If Kyouko's clone gets dispelled and re-formed, it's going to lose the kevlar anyway. Better to provide it to the important person of the group we're helping. Can always toss some leather on Kyouko's clone as a tiny extra edge.