Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
All of these benefits would also be available to groups who "ally" without officially "merging". Unless there are benefits to officially merging which go along with the penalties, then people will simply do what they want and call it something else in order to avoid the penalties.
Getting the benefits of more efficient support structures (not duplicating features) would be very difficult as a mere ally. I'll grant it's possible, and if that's what they want to do... well, that's fine.

Err. Sending one meguca to Tokyo to vote in council meetings is not where the cost comes from... You have to train all of the girls in Tokyo how to operate an organization efficiently. You have to create all these new organizational structures and force people to move around. You have to come up with a system of rules that allows things to work. And you have to convince everyone else to go along with it. These things are (potentially) doable, but they're quite expensive in terms of time and I can't really see any groups who are less optimistic than the Serene being willing to pay that cost. Some groups might promise to pay that cost if it means that the incubators will send their pet Legendary to clean things up Tokyo, but putting the rubber to the road is where they'd start to flake.
Granted. And if we are the only group likely to be willing to pay that cost, it also puts the Serenes in a very powerful position, of being the ones to define all the rules. Nagoya doesn't have to help contribute, but they can't exactly complain if they don't get any spiffy kickbacks either.

In addition, we gain a reputation as a parent state, and an arbitrator. We helped them out, and did not put them under our thumb. If someone starts screwing with us, we'll have a lot of people in our corner if/when we need help.

Anyone who scrambles in to try to grab a piece of the Tokyo pie once the danger is gone is going to be viewed far less favorably.

These sorts of benefits are more of how we might sell the plan to other groups. But many of the benefits are outside of anything that most of them have experienced, so it would be a hard sell. I'm not sure exactly how difficult it would be to create a whole magical economy from scratch (even if girls have some idea of how economies work from the real world), but I imagine that this would be rather difficult.
Probably, yeah. But it would be to our advantage to help cultivate a stable real economy, rather than a black market economy.


Some points related to Haman's responses, that I can't find the quotes for:

The problem with dividing Tokyo up among 5 or so big power blocks is twofold.

1) The power blocks themselves will squabble over territory.
2) The residents of Tokyo will be resentful of the power blocks, and work against the stability we're aiming for.

This will not be stable, nor does it have any exit strategy. We can't return territory to the original residents unilaterally without making ourselves weaker, and opening the opportunity for one of the other power blocks to make a power grab. And the residents of Tokyo will be stewing to get us out of there, just like every colony state ever.

The idea in my overall plan was that we do not introduce new overlords in Tokyo, but keep it as territory of the locals (but with oversight). We then provide them with the means of governing themselves, without too much interference, but with benefits for those involved in dealing with the Tokyo issue. It's mutually beneficial, and leads to eventual self-governing Tokyo states.

Basically, we don't play US-in-Germany/US-in-Iran/Israel-in-Palestine/Everyone-getting-a-slice-of-the-Kurds/etc. The only way to maintain that kind of control is to maintain a hostile relationship with the suppressed state, and that fundamentally leads to failure.

At the same time, I'm not trying to create a great united Tokyo. The groups in Tokyo are not and will not be united. Even if almost all of the original groups are dead, history is not so easily forgotten. So I went with splitting them up into sustainable, bounded blocks. Territory disputes are over who owns what. If the boundaries are already known and fixed, that cuts out a lot of the ambiguousness that can lead to aggressive behavior.

That's also part of why I went with the draft system for splitting things up — force a semi-random distribution of meguca, with the option to trade them around, so that we can avoid concentrations of hate next to each other. And putting limits on mergers (including getting the approval of the other m-wards of the area for larger mergers) should keep rampant growth in check.

We will not be creating a massive super-group of 1000-1500 meguca that we suddenly have to compete against. We'll be creating lots of 30- or 60-meguca groups (or 70 after contract rates go up), a size that allows a reasonable amount of power, but also a reasonable amount of vulnerability.
 
I think that for the first three months we would want to use pack hunting methods in Tokyo. For a few reasons. First for greater safety, and second because it will use a larger percentage of them on hunting, allowing us more time to inoculate them with the Serene ways and culture. The busier they are hunting and focused on survival, the less time to feel resentful. Additionally, pack hunting helps spread that culture faster than pair hunting. After three months, then we might want to switch, so that they can get more money coming in, and sense that things are improving.
A reasonable approach.

A 40 territory could be pack hunted by 0.5 elite (solo), 8 vets, and 4 greens using just leather armor, and be at worst -5% casualty rates using our setup. Even the greens would be fully safe as long as they had at least 8% in non-armor casualty reduction. Pack tactics training alone is -4% for pack hunting. -1% for dispatch, 2% for shields, and -2% for basic combat training, and you're all good.

Absurd. Why would any magical girl group (expect ours) decide to support such a scheme? Why should they spend blood, grief, and money to just create a future more powerful rival to themselves in Tokyo?
As noted in the prior response, this would be mostly about creating a lot of small, not-so-powerful rivals, not one big mega-rival. And the smaller Tokyo groups are almost guaranteed not to consolidate into one major group; there will remain a number of sub-groups among them, even if they are generous with allowing mergers.

@Elder Haman @Kinematics what do you think? Even if the chances are 1 in 100, the possibility of securing Homura's even reluctant assistance could instantly change the face of the Tokyo situation; in my opinion it's worth the gamble.
I do agree that trying to get a legendary's assistance sooner rather than later would be a good idea. Also, if we are the ones who succeeded in calling her in, that gives us a great deal of cachet in the followup. I am not entirely sure Homura is our best choice; will need to give that more thought.
 
@Kinematics

So looking at the cost for this in megucas, for just the upswing side (assuming we adjust to have 37 even split).

It's about 16 vets in packs, or 3 elite solo and 10.5 vets in packs at the other extreme (I am assuming Seto teleportation).

So we need between 320 normal barrier charms, or 60 teleportation charms and 210 barrier charms.

I currently have 1 extra vet available. I could put her on trying to expand our courier business, or I could use her to allow 4 more healers to get trained on tandem casting. (My tandem training plan is to get all the barrier girls, clairs, and teleporters trained, plus all our elites, before starting in on the healing girls, as they seem the least useful tandem casters, and we already have two trained.)

But I'm thinking that perhaps creating 200 normal barrier charms might be the best expenditure. Since we will need that many no matter what plan we use for IRT. (Although, actually, I guess teleportation charms have the exact same effect in pack hunting, so I could do 200 teleportation charms instead).

What are your thoughts?
OK, taking the current plan, which is overhunting in the South. We're not merging the 10+17 area yet; waiting til the North is at 0 to minimize the fuss during merging and splitting. South area has 28 territory.

Using IRT in the south, with Seto on teleport transport, changing vets to pack hunting, and teleport charms for safety. Solo elite and pack vets are both then at -0.1% casualty risk. (Teleport charms used because solo elites started at 3% risk, and this takes it to 0%.)

Increase the number of vets from 8 pairs to 10.5 packs. In addition, 230 charms are required, which costs 0.5 GCU and 1.5 meguca time.

Final cube harvest increases from 84.5 cubes to 88.5 cubes, an increase of +4 cubes. Total meguca assignment increases from 16.5 to 20.5, an increase of +4 meguca.

+4 cubes for +4 meguca seems a very bad trade.
 
If detection is the default, then traveling possibly could be as dangerous as @Elder Haman supposes, which means we'd need an escort, and all that entails: more money, more risk, maybe the need to bring Taya along to scry for people, tandem stealth specialists, ugh. Kofu would definitely be out; we'd lose a few trade deals maybe too. Might not be worth it after all.

I don't think we'd need tandem stealth specialists. We aren't going to be sticking around to hunt or try to horn in on other people's territory, just passing through to Homura. It took long enough for the Iwata girls to decide to kidnap Kaori that passing through for two weeks shouldn't be a problem.

And I don't think we'd really need more escort than a Kyoko in any case. Two elites should be able to handle most trouble on their own.
 
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Some points related to Haman's responses, that I can't find the quotes for:

The problem with dividing Tokyo up among 5 or so big power blocks is twofold.

1) The power blocks themselves will squabble over territory.
2) The residents of Tokyo will be resentful of the power blocks, and work against the stability we're aiming for.

This will not be stable, nor does it have any exit strategy. We can't return territory to the original residents unilaterally without making ourselves weaker, and opening the opportunity for one of the other power blocks to make a power grab. And the residents of Tokyo will be stewing to get us out of there, just like every colony state ever.

Of course it won't be completely stable. However, it's a far better choice than any viable alternative. And it will give us an opportunity to grow in power as well. We'd have sufficient manpower to suddenly bootstrap our research into something massive. Furthermore, with our naturally higher morale we ought to be the most stable group in this venture, and thus able to exploit chaos the most easily.

We are approaching this from completely opposite directions. You are starting with: "what is the wise way to organize things to avoid conflict, yada, yada, yada - okay now how do I sell this to people?"

I am approaching it from: "What can I sell to people? Hmm... just these two options. Which of these two bad options is the best?"

The idea in my overall plan was that we do not introduce new overlords in Tokyo, but keep it as territory of the locals (but with oversight). We then provide them with the means of governing themselves, without too much interference, but with benefits for those involved in dealing with the Tokyo issue. It's mutually beneficial, and leads to eventual self-governing Tokyo states.

The benefits to the outside groups are not sufficient to justify the expenditure of resources to setup and then maintain this system. The tax you propose is a small injury, which is the worst of both worlds, as it will make Tokyo girls resentful, but do nothing to cripple them, leaving them strong enough to combine to overthrow their "oppressors."

Again, I submit to you that outside groups are unlikely to agree to such an orderly scheme. It just doesn't sufficiently serve their self-interest.

Basically, we don't play US-in-Germany/US-in-Iran/Israel-in-Palestine/Everyone-getting-a-slice-of-the-Kurds/etc. The only way to maintain that kind of control is to maintain a hostile relationship with the suppressed state, and that fundamentally leads to failure.

Well... first of all, your US in Germany example suggests that you can maintain occupation without a hostile relationship if you treat people decently, and if there is sufficient cultural agreement.

Which of course is the case, since we're all Japanese here. If the problem city was Seoul, then yeah, a partition and occupation plan would be a disaster. But this is Tokyo, and we are all Japanese. That means we share the same cultural background. Assimilation and absorption should be possible. It'd be more akin to the US conquering Canada.

Or as if during the 16th Century, Bavaria had collapsed due to plague and the other princes of Germany (Austria, Saxony, Brandenburg, Hessel-Kassel, and Hanover) got together to decide how to carve up the carcass. (Which they totally would have done). The rulers are all different, but they are all German. It's not like the French or something invading.

My expectation is that if we treat the Tokyo girls properly we will be able to completely assimilate then and form a single polity. Furthermore, I expect that we will do so faster and more effectively than the other groups.

The first three months will be hard, but three months following that we ought to start seeing differences. Our Tokyo girls don't have any deaths from hunting, the other areas still have girls dying. The other areas have more money probably, due to willingness to engage in crime, but then we start opening restaurants, and legal jobs become available. Our Tokyo girls get to live a semi-normal life. Other Tokyo girls have to be criminals and take risk while hunting.

Within a year I expect that most of our Tokyo girls will be fully loyal to the Serenes. The instability that starts to come about as the other groups partitioning Tokyo start jockeying for position will only cement their belief that they lucked out in joining our group. Furthermore this loyalty will make us a harder target in the competition for Tokyo power. Additionally, our conservative nature will make us less threatening.

We'll probably have to deal with one or two probes testing to see if our "soft ways" makes us easy prey, but if we are prepared for those and stomp on them hard and ruthlessly, most of the other groups will decide to go after the other "more dangerous" rivals first. Then we just turtle to victory as the other groups weaken each other.

At the same time, I'm not trying to create a great united Tokyo. The groups in Tokyo are not and will not be united. Even if almost all of the original groups are dead, history is not so easily forgotten. So I went with splitting them up into sustainable, bounded blocks. Territory disputes are over who owns what. If the boundaries are already known and fixed, that cuts out a lot of the ambiguousness that can lead to aggressive behavior.

That's also part of why I went with the draft system for splitting things up — force a semi-random distribution of meguca, with the option to trade them around, so that we can avoid concentrations of hate next to each other. And putting limits on mergers (including getting the approval of the other m-wards of the area for larger mergers) should keep rampant growth in check.

We will not be creating a massive super-group of 1000-1500 meguca that we suddenly have to compete against. We'll be creating lots of 30- or 60-meguca groups (or 70 after contract rates go up), a size that allows a reasonable amount of power, but also a reasonable amount of vulnerability.

I see no plausible way to prevent Tokyo from uniting unless we fully occupy it. Your plan will result in resentment against the outsiders taxing them and regulating them. A charismatic girl will exploit that to unite Tokyo against the outsiders. Then we will have a war that either ends in Tokyo hegemony over magical Japan, or partitioning and occupying Tokyo - but this time without the relief of having been saved from class 3 demons, and instead a sense of having been wrongfully oppressed.

In other words, worse in every way than just going for the partition plan from the get go.

Sometimes the orderly plan is the worse plan, because you can't get people to agree.

OK, taking the current plan, which is overhunting in the South. We're not merging the 10+17 area yet; waiting til the North is at 0 to minimize the fuss during merging and splitting. South area has 28 territory.

Using IRT in the south, with Seto on teleport transport, changing vets to pack hunting, and teleport charms for safety. Solo elite and pack vets are both then at -0.1% casualty risk. (Teleport charms used because solo elites started at 3% risk, and this takes it to 0%.)

Increase the number of vets from 8 pairs to 10.5 packs. In addition, 230 charms are required, which costs 0.5 GCU and 1.5 meguca time.

Final cube harvest increases from 84.5 cubes to 88.5 cubes, an increase of +4 cubes. Total meguca assignment increases from 16.5 to 20.5, an increase of +4 meguca.

+4 cubes for +4 meguca seems a very bad trade.

You misunderstand, I was suggesting IRT hunt starting next month, when we overhunt the rebalanced North. Then I suggested getting the charms for this started on this month.

That should mean IRT gives us about +6.2 cubes over RT, right?

Quick thumbnail estimates is that this would mean 16 vet pack hunters instead of 13.5 vet pair hunters. Plus 1.5 vets to make charms. So 4 more megucas for 5.6 more cubes.

Except that if we use 3 elites (which doesn't change), this is more like 8 vet pairs to 10.5 vet pack hunters... which is about the same trade off...

Hmm... yes, grief cube management is a better expenditure.
 
I don't think we'd need tandem stealth specialists. We aren't going to be sticking around to hunt or try to horn in on other people's territory, just passing through to Homura. It took long enough for the Iwata girls to decide to kidnap Kaori that passing through for two weeks shouldn't be a problem.

And I don't think we'd really need more escort than a Kyoko in any case. Two elites should be able to handle most trouble on their own.

Look, is the risk small?

Sure, I'd guess 10% chance maybe that the local meguca decide to attack the strangers wandering through their territory.

But the risk is real. We shouldn't ignore it.
 
Look, is the risk small?

Sure, I'd guess 10% chance maybe that the local meguca decide to attack the strangers wandering through their territory.

But the risk is real. We shouldn't ignore it.

Tokyo is dying, and we may not have 3 months for the next opportunity to go visit. We need help, and as a Japanese native Homura is the most likely of any of the legendaries we know about to be swayed to help.
 
You misunderstand, I was suggesting IRT hunt starting next month, when we overhunt the rebalanced North. Then I suggested getting the charms for this started on this month.

That should mean IRT gives us about +6.2 cubes over RT, right?

Quick thumbnail estimates is that this would mean 16 vet pack hunters instead of 13.5 vet pair hunters. Plus 1.5 vets to make charms. So 4 more megucas for 5.6 more cubes.

Except that if we use 3 elites (which doesn't change), this is more like 8 vet pairs to 10.5 vet pack hunters... which is about the same trade off...

Hmm... yes, grief cube management is a better expenditure.
Hm, so the verdict is that single-use charms don't work for IRT? Guess that means we need to limit single-use items to export, and for fighting Class 3s where every mod will help. Going forward, we probably need Spell Trigger research, then another long-term research item for Reusable Spell Trigger items to make IRT economical; that's going to take awhile.

we start opening restaurants, and legal jobs become available.
Courier duty to start, I think, as it has a lower cost of entry: $50 million in loans to start 100 restaurants in Tokyo is a bridge too far, not to mention that since we don't have rules for cross-training specialties (@inverted_helix?) we still only have one wish-magic chef.

True, but states also have representatives based on the state's size. Democracy (and common sense) require that larger organizations have more representation than smaller states. The small states still have a voice (and that minority voice is important), but it's still a minority.
Well, yes, but bigger states already have the advantage of being bigger, and in this case would have smaller taxes (since @Kinematics plan seems to call for a 2-cube tax per "state"), so having less sway at the Council would balance out.

It's sort of the same way that each member of the UN General Assembly only has one vote, no matter their population size. At the same time, there is a permanent UN Security Council that has power of its own, which is analogous to our outside-Tokyo groups also being part of a separate council; makes me wonder, should we go the council route, if we should have a bimonthly rotating membership among the Tokyo groups in our own "security council" analogue. It would certainly give the whole thing a bit more legitimacy.

All the same, I wonder how willing these girls will be to play model UN in the aftermath of a zombie invasion. I think they would be willing to try, at least for the first few years: it'd be bizarrely normal, compared to the daily grind of fighting demons, and after living in Mad Max world for two years that normality will be something to cherish.

The big problem with your plan, @Kinematics, will be getting everyone together to present any plan in the first place. Right now the Tokyo girls can't even be said to be living hand-to-mouth: they are literally eating on the run, killing regular demons for their daily cubes while trying to dodge dozens of super-demons, likely losing 20% of their non-Elite force every month to grief spirals, because morale has to be zero and there's little hope of having spare cubes to spend on grief spirals for any but Elites. When are they going to find a few days to sit around and contemplate voting for or against a constitution, versus being carved up into spheres of influence? Or are we simply imposing the whole scheme from the outside, renting Kesi for a month or two to clear out the Class 3s, and relying on the ability for our 70-person group, backed by five or six 120-150 person groups, to dictate terms to over 1,000 Tokyo girls?

Great Britain was not able to balance Europe without allies; they were able to balance Europe by not having permanent allies and switching allies frequently as needs must (while relying on the Sea to protect them from direct retaliation). As things currently stand, we don't have any allies. To be sure, we ought to rectify that problem if we're going to be dealing with the groups of Japan at large, but as things stand we have no business trying to be a power balancer.
Not without Homura, or some other permanently stationed Legendary to backstop our status as balancer. No, if @Elder Haman's plan goes through, the balancer is going to be Nagoya, not the Serene, unless we can manage to pull in Homura, at which point we can become the balancer and everything becomes much more stable.

You know what would be way cheaper and easier than this (and not much less likely to work): giving Homura a phone call. She may not have a cellphone herself, but we could easily call a phone near her and ask to speak with her (or have Kyuubey drop a cell phone on the path in front of her, if need be).
At which point she destroys the phone and is even more suspicious. IMO we'd have to meet her in person, or not at all. That's kind of the cost of going with Homura: she needs to be handled in person, and navigating her personal minefield is going to be at least as difficult as balancing the Nagoya Mageocracy against the other Japanese Powers.

I do agree that trying to get a legendary's assistance sooner rather than later would be a good idea. Also, if we are the ones who succeeded in calling her in, that gives us a great deal of cachet in the followup. I am not entirely sure Homura is our best choice; will need to give that more thought.
Homura is the only Legendary that we might be able to convince to stay in Japan: it's too small of a country for Serena; Kesi's at Kyubey's beck and call; Hortence is too old to want to travel at all, let alone permanently relocate. Pulling her in makes the Serene the balancer in our region, because anyone who attacks us or does something we don't like would have to deal with Sudden Legendary wiping their force instantly. The downside is, well, having to deal with Murderface all the time.

I don't think we'd need tandem stealth specialists. We aren't going to be sticking around to hunt or try to horn in on other people's territory, just passing through to Homura. It took long enough for the Iwata girls to decide to kidnap Kaori that passing through for two weeks shouldn't be a problem.

And I don't think we'd really need more escort than a Kyoko in any case. Two elites should be able to handle most trouble on their own.
That's still two Elites we'd need to pull, which is going to cost a lot of side-projects this month. Trying to work out the math now.

Tokyo is dying, and we may not have 3 months for the next opportunity to go visit. We need help, and as a Japanese native Homura is the most likely of any of the legendaries we know about to be swayed to help.
Well, she's the only one we could possibly convince to stay, anyway. If we can put together a transition plan then Kesi is more likely to actually come in the first place, and she's only a phone call away; the problem with her is the aftermath.
 
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Are there any numbers on how much time it takes to get put into contact with one of the non-homura legendaries? I'm thinking of trying to create my own plan.

Also, to @Elder Haman and @Kinematics , If I did create my own plan, what would be the best/safest thing to reallocate megucamonths away from? I don't want to disrupt the statistics, after all.
 
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No, Kesi is the most likely we know to be swayed to help.

You're just making excuses because you want the Homura.

Kesi is not the most likely to be swayed to help, because it isn't Kesi we need to convince. I don't think either Your Balance of Power plan nor Kinematic's occupation plan are tenable, and thus I think they will fail to convince Kyuubey to bring her in.

Edit: Kesi is still worth trying, but I don't agree she's a sure thing like you seem to think.
 
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I think that Tokyo is a time bomb and we haven't read the manual for it yet, and trying to disarm it right now is more likely to blow it up in our face than stop it. We need more numbers, and if that means we have to wait for the next stage of Tokyo's decline, for the threat to grow so much we have to unite the organizations around us under one banner, then so be it. By then, maybe we'll have read the manual all the way, or a real bomb squad expert like Homu can show up and diffuse it for us.
 
Hm, so the verdict is that single-use charms don't work for IRT? Guess that means we need to limit single-use items to export, and for fighting Class 3s where every mod will help. Going forward, we probably need Spell Trigger research, then another long-term research item for Reusable Spell Trigger items to make IRT economical; that's going to take awhile.

Sounds like it... thinking of shifting to producing tandem barrier charms then instead. Give us some trade goods.

67 will cost 1 vets time (2 barrier specialists who can cast tandem), and 0.4 cubes. So if we could sell 60 of them for 6 cubes we'd make a slight profit over that vet pair hunting instead...

Or maybe I should just drop 2 girls from tandem training for another free 0.5 vet and get Grief Management to save 3.5 cubes...

Courier duty to start, I think, as it has a lower cost of entry: $50 million in loans to start 100 restaurants in Tokyo is a bridge too far, not to mention that since we don't have rules for cross-training specialties (@inverted_helix?) we still only have one wish-magic chef.

Good point, although I'll point out that we do not need a magic cook to have a successful restaurant.

Also, to @Elder Haman and @kinematic , If I did create my own plan, what would be the best/safest thing to reallocate megucamonths away from? I don't want to disrupt the statistics, after all.

As long as you don't mess with the Hunting Plan or the Upkeep Section things are pretty stable on risk and grief cube side.

EDIT: This month is a bit odd with the tandem casting training being linked to the hunting plan, but that's not a big deal. Basically as long as you keep the elites on the tandem training you can get the nomadic hunting, but without it you lose nomadic hunting (about 4 cubes).

Messing around with Jobs is less intrusive, but does have financial implications that you need to think through. (Not as complicated as the hunting math).

The rest is pretty fluid. I think anyone should feel free to move the other resources around.

I'd guess that the Kofu scouting is the fastest source of extra manpower. Or alternatively dropping the Nagoaya observation action, to get a 0.5 Kyouko to head out with Mami, if people really want to have 2 of our elites good from Mitakihara at the same time. (if I were helix I'd make us pay for doing something like that by triggering a mini-turn).
 
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I see no plausible way to prevent Tokyo from uniting unless we fully occupy it.
You did see how well they united the first time, right? The major fear is to make sure they don't start a new round of wars with each other, not that they'll suddenly all unite in harmony.

Your plan will result in resentment against the outsiders taxing them and regulating them.
I'm actually not putting much stock in taxing them. I only noted it as something we 'could' do, but that it wouldn't generate anything near worth the bad will that went with it. It'd be like forcing Germany to repay its debts after WW 1.

It is regulating them, but it's regulation so that the great big apocalypse that they just narrowly survived doesn't happen again, and there's nothing onerous being applied.

(Will do a more thorough read/reply later.)

You misunderstand, I was suggesting IRT hunt starting next month, when we overhunt the rebalanced North.
Running numbers for next month, it looks like RT would give 98.5 cubes for 19 meguca, while IRT would give 103.2 cubes for 24.5 meguca. (1.5 elite used in both scenarios.) +4.7 cubes for +5.5 meguca.

Then I suggested getting the charms for this started on this month.
I'm not sure we can store the charms that long? Right now they last long enough to be usable through the day they're made, but upkeep on them for an entire month would be...

Hm, so the verdict is that single-use charms don't work for IRT?
It's not that they don't work, it's that they're an incredibly inefficient use of time and manpower.

If we had another 4% casualty reduction from other sources so that we could keep using vet pairs, and used barrier charms for the last 1% (so as not to take the 5% production penalty from teleport charms), we'd be at 103 cubes for 21.5 meguca — +4.5 cubes for +2.5 meguca, which still isn't a great deal. We can currently get +3.5 cubes for +2 (or +1.5 currently, due to rounding) meguca from grief management, which is basically the same ratio (~1.8 cubes per meguca).
 
I'd guess that the Kofu scouting is the fastest source of extra manpower. Or alternatively dropping the Nagoaya observation action, to get a 0.5 Kyouko to head out with Mami, if people really want to have 2 of our elites good from Mitakihara at the same time. (if I were helix I'd make us pay for doing something like that by triggering a mini-turn).
Well, I wasn't planning on actually going to california, just having Kyubey set up communications, but I should point out that Kyouko can always resummon kyouclone, so sending her away isn't a problem.
I'm actually not putting much stock in taxing them. I only noted it as something we 'could' do, but that it wouldn't generate anything near worth the bad will that went with it. It'd be like forcing Germany to repay its debts after WW 1.
Er, you could probably have picked a better example there. The economic damage caused by war reparations was one of the main resentment generators for ww2.
 
Er, you could probably have picked a better example there. The economic damage caused by war reparations was one of the main resentment generators for ww2.
That was the point I was trying to imply. Taxing them enough that it's worthwhile motivation in and of itself for the supervising powers to be involved in governing the area is more likely to result in sufficient resentment that a united Germany-like Tokyo could be formed in the future, which we absolutely do not want. Even if they don't successfully unite, it's still not a nice thing to do, and could lead to a host of problems.

The tax you propose is a small injury, which is the worst of both worlds, as it will make Tokyo girls resentful, but do nothing to cripple them, leaving them strong enough to combine to overthrow their "oppressors."
Again, I am not proposing a tax. I merely noted it to show how little value it would provide.

We 'can' tax the Tokyo area.
Note that 'can' is in quotes — used in the sense of "something we are capable of doing", not "something I'm suggesting or advocating".


Well... first of all, your US in Germany example suggests that you can maintain occupation without a hostile relationship if you treat people decently, and if there is sufficient cultural agreement.
That actually was a reference to using the occupation as an excuse for a foothold against a larger enemy (the Soviet Union), meaning it's just an excuse for making the area a battleground between the larger powers occupying it. It got mixed in with the other examples, and I didn't properly explain it. Sorry.
 
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That was the point I was trying to imply. Taxing them enough that it's worthwhile motivation in and of itself for the supervising powers to be involved in governing the area is more likely to result in sufficient resentment that a united Germany-like Tokyo could be formed in the future, which we absolutely do not want. Even if they don't successfully unite, it's still not a nice thing to do, and could lead to a host of problems.
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:facepalm:
Sorry, I think I misread.
 
I think that Tokyo is a time bomb and we haven't read the manual for it yet, and trying to disarm it right now is more likely to blow it up in our face than stop it. We need more numbers, and if that means we have to wait for the next stage of Tokyo's decline, for the threat to grow so much we have to unite the organizations around us under one banner, then so be it. By then, maybe we'll have read the manual all the way, or a real bomb squad expert like Homu can show up and diffuse it for us.
The "next stage of Tokyo's decline" is Hong Kong: massive casualties spilling over into the mundane world, followed by massive economic destabilization. Let's not forget that Mitakihara is only ~60 miles from Tokyo: if Tokyo suddenly becomes ground zero for an apocalyptic plague, we could see 20-40% of our own population fleeing, which will reduce our territory's hunting capacity by 20-40%, meaning we starve, even if we're lucky enough to not have any of our girls scattered to the winds as happened last time with Kaori.

I'm not sure we can store the charms that long? Right now they last long enough to be usable through the day they're made, but upkeep on them for an entire month would be...
The basic form of spell anchoring, the one we bought from Nagoya, lasts as long as the containment enchantment is held by a meguca. Our insulation allows us to put the charms down for up to six hours by sealing them in a thermos; at that point you need to have a meguca pick it up again to renew the containment or the whole thing destabilizes and goes off unpredictably. The Improve duration/spell anchoring project: that you and @Elder Haman have in your plans should improve that insulation by investing in a laboratory dewar to seal our single-use charms inside; this should let us store hundreds of them without too much of a problem. If we do sell them as @Elder Haman is suggesting then we should probably also bulk-purchase (monogrammed!) thermoses to carry them around in.
 
I'm not sure we can store the charms that long? Right now they last long enough to be usable through the day they're made, but upkeep on them for an entire month would be...

What Eyes said. Once we reach 24 hours (or even 10 hours in a pinch) we can have a meguca stabilize them daily and they last until we need them.

It's not that they don't work, it's that they're an incredibly inefficient use of time and manpower.

If we had another 4% casualty reduction from other sources so that we could keep using vet pairs, and used barrier charms for the last 1% (so as not to take the 5% production penalty from teleport charms), we'd be at 103 cubes for 21.5 meguca — +4.5 cubes for +2.5 meguca, which still isn't a great deal. We can currently get +3.5 cubes for +2 (or +1.5 currently, due to rounding) meguca from grief management, which is basically the same ratio (~1.8 cubes per meguca).

Yes... essentially I'm putting IRT down as only useful in being able to extend our carrying capacity if we get an influx of new girls without territory gain.

Again, I am not proposing a tax. I merely noted it to show how little value it would provide.

Then my other point takes hold: there is insufficient reward to compensate other large groups for the cost of regulating Tokyo. You can't get a grand alliance for this plan.

Look at Nagoya's comment. They want to control Tokyo. It's instinctive.

We can't fight human nature we don't have sufficient magical surplus to make it so competition won't drive conflict. Instead we need to work with human nature so that the inevitable conflict is directed in a way that does the least harm (and allows us to come out on top).

The "next stage of Tokyo's decline" is Hong Kong: massive casualties spilling over into the mundane world, followed by massive economic destabilization. Let's not forget that Mitakihara is only ~60 miles from Tokyo: if Tokyo suddenly becomes ground zero for an apocalyptic plague, we could see 20-40% of our own population fleeing, which will reduce our territory's hunting capacity by 20-40%, meaning we starve, even if we're lucky enough to not have any of our girls scattered to the winds as happened last time with Kaori.

Actually, we'd probably be in a position to hold out, barely, by using IRT. Of course we'd lose our manpower edge to do anything more than just hold on.
 
Actually, we'd probably be in a position to hold out, barely, by using IRT. Of course we'd lose our manpower edge to do anything more than just hold on.
Possibly, but everyone else will be resorting to cannibalism, trying to invade our territory, or, worst of all, overhunting and setting off a cascade of Class 3 events. Bottom line is it isn't a good idea.
 
So thinking about it. Grief Management probably maximizes our gains this turn, since 3.5 extra cubes gives us even more margin for cube trading.

However, looking at the long term, I think we want to get in on the tandem charm trading business.

Thoughts for what we could do next month (assuming things go well this month):

1: Trade Deal w/ Nagoya (yes, again): Offer our duration/long term storage research to Nagoya (this should get us enough money to both buy and repair Kyoko's church), send them a couple of our tandem cast charms as samples for them to look at (don't tell them about tandem casting). I bet they'll suddenly have an interest in purchasing barrier and healing charms from us (now that they can store them for a long period, and with them being 200% or 150% as effective). Offer them at 1 cube for 10 charms.

2: Trade Deal with Kofu: Find out what they have to offer

3: Coalition: If we've managed to get an idea of how efficient they are at hunting we can try and work out a trade deal. We sell them the spell anchoring research and our duration research. Maybe in exchange for producing ~15 tandem cast charms for us for the price of 1 cube, with a monthly limit. If they are hunting at an efficiency of ~4.5 cubes per a vet (which is likely assuming that they are solo hunting, and can afford either basic dispatch or teleportation but not both), then they actually benefit from this, and we benefit as well. A marvelous example of arbitrage through specialization and trade. Plus we will continue our efforts to entangle the Coalition's economy with ours.

4: If we got contact with the large groups from Kyubey, begin diplomacy discussion about the Tokyo situation, get our first insight into how possible a grand alliance is. Decide if we are going for Kesi, or if we have to make another plan (Homura, Serena).

5: If we didn't get into contact with large groups from Kyubey, begin scouting/Opening relations the various locations that could have large groups (probably start with Osaka).

6: Open Relations with Matsumoto (next city up from Kofu).

7: Some action with Area 16/15 after we've learned more about them. Probably give them some tandem charm samples, see if they'll make a good customer?

8: We should consider some more PvP training.

9: If we got any usable contacts in Tokyo (through Kyubey or our 4 Tokyo girls), we could start sending them care packages. Say a thermos filled with 1 healing charm, 1 illusion charm, and 4 barrier charms. Along with instructions to sleep with it, and recommendations to keep it as a bug out jar (basically for situations where the class 3 demon caught you by surprise and you need an edge to allow you to escape.) That would be 6 charms per a Thermos, so at the cost of 1 vet and 0.4 cubes we could outfit 11 Tokyo girls.
 
Oh... I just had a great idea.

Telepathic charms aren't very helpful because normal girls can't process the extra information, right? Well what if we had telepathic charms that blocked access to your mind instead of trying to read other people's minds?

That way Taura could produce something useful for telepathic defense without having to train other girls in telepathic defenses...

Hmm... we'd need someone to act as the opposition though. Maybe we should create a few telepathic mind reading charms and see if they work with clairvoyants using them (since their minds are modified to process the extra information...)

@inverted_helix Thoughts?
 
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