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The Slave Who Makes Free: An Anakin Skywalker Quest

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Nyvis said:
I disagree. The gauletier system is a much better analogy, because just like the moffs, it came as a fascist reform to replace a republic's federal structure with military governors named by the fascist leader. It's a very different beast from an empire that has always been run by a combination of local magnates and imperial governors like the Byzantines.
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Eh, one arose from the conquest of other countries (Germany), while in this case the Empire divided itself internally*. The Republic turning into the Empire was a coup supported by both the military and the core after all, not a series of quick military conquests on their neighbours. I don't think comparing the Moff system to other systems of government IRL is the right thing to do in this case. We all know what it is on face value: a series of military governors with sweeping powers subservient to an autocratic central authority.

I don't see much point in continuing this line of discussion, because it seems like a bit of a nitpick, I'll be honest! :V

*Of course during it's early years, the Empire conquered several unaffiliated territories, though those were quite small compared to the territory it already possessed, hence my statement up above being true in 95% of cases.
 
01paradox01 said:
Eh, one arose from the conquest of other countries (Germany), while in this case the Empire divided itself internally*.
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Come again? The Gaue system was a parallel Nazi Party administrative division for Germany (formally no Lander were abolished until after the war when Prussia was partitioned and some of the microstates mediatized, and in the west they were only reorganized rather than abolished outright) and was implemented in 1926 before the Nazis ever took power in the federal state. It was never applied to occupation zones, which were variously the bailiwicks of the Army, the SS, or what have you.
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
Come again? The Gaue system was a parallel Nazi Party administrative division for Germany (formally no Lander were abolished until after the war, and in the west they were reorganized rather than abolished outright) and was implemented in 1926 before the Nazis ever took power in the federal state. It was never applied to occupation zones, which were variously the bailiwicks of the Army, the SS, or what have you.
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Ah, seems like I misunderstood things then! :oops:

Though I would still argue western Poland, the Sudetenland and perhaps Austria were military conquests by the nature of their annexations. I'll retract my statement on that in this case. Still, I'll reiterate that arguing over which IRL system of government fits the Moff system best is a bit reductive, but I guess that's Forums for y'a.
 
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It seems that many empires in history did something similar, be it the Byzantines, Persians, Germans, or pretty much every colonial empire appointing a colonial governor. None of those are probably one to one analogy to the system employed by the galactic empire, but ruling a large empire requires a certain degree of delegation of tasks to the ruler´s subordinate. Plus the Moff system would likely allow Palps to bypass the senate, by giving orders directly to the Moffs and having them enforce those orders, without meddling by annoying senaors.
 
01paradox01 said:
Eh, one arose from the conquest of other countries (Germany), while in this case the Empire divided itself internally*. The Republic turning into the Empire was a coup supported by both the military and the core after all, not a series of quick military conquests on their neighbours. I don't think comparing the Moff system to other systems of government IRL is the right thing to do in this case. We all know what it is on face value: a series of military governors with sweeping powers subservient to an autocratic central authority.

I don't see much point in continuing this line of discussion, because it seems like a bit of a nitpick, I'll be honest! :V

*Of course during it's early years, the Empire conquered several unaffiliated territories, though those were quite small compared to the territory it already possessed, hence my statement up above being true in 95% of cases.
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The Gaue system was an internal reform of nazi Germany to replace the Weimar federal system with Hitler-appointed governors initiated in 1934, before most of their conquest, though it came to include quite a bit of land from those they wanted as part of Germany. It was based on the regional organization of the NSDAP itself. It's basically fascist viceroys.
 
[X] Contact Queen Amidala
[X] Request an AgriCorps deployment

More than anything else, we'd really like to avoid giving Dooku the chance to fully cyberize Grievous and exploit his hatred against the Jedi, as in-canon he was directly responsible for a large fraction of Separatist military victories and the deaths of large numbers of Jedi, among which includes the destruction of the task force of Jedi on Geonosis sent to capture the Separatist Supreme Council.

Arguably, even with the horrid losses at Geonosis, the Jedi would have succeeded in crushing the CIS (minus Dooku) without Grievous.

Whether we can build a personal connection through Padme or an organizational one through the AgriCorps, if we can avoid him becoming a psychotic augmented Jedi-killer it would avoid immense numbers of deaths galaxy-wide, even if he joins the CIS anyway as a "mere" planetary leader.

Pre-devastation of Huk, we don't even know if Dooku and Sidious really cared about him at all before he demonstrated both his martial skill and ruthlessness, and the resulting sanctions cemented his hatred of Republic and Jedi both.
 
Nyvis said:
I don't get this obsession with a parallel at least a millennia out of step with the actual inspiration for star wars. The moff are very obviously gauletiers, the idea that only the byzantine could do centrally appointed governors is silly, and the system under them has pretty much nothing to do with middle age eastern Rome.

Is this some word of god I've missed on moffs = theme system or just byzantomania gone wild?
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Everything was the inspiration for Star Wars: Lucas (with George RR Martin as an admittedly close second) is one of the top ranking figures in modern media for plagiarizing everything that exists and weaving it into a functional, compelling whole. In some cases routing off of other fiction with each referenced work having its own inspirations, meta-level works like 'The Hero With A Thousand Faces', and a vast number of historic periods and entities. Some of the history being, well, current or near current to the times the work was being made. The parallels between the Vietnam War and America's excesses of the period, with the Ewoks being sourced from the Viet Cong, are just as notable as anything else and Lucas outright admitted that part.

So you have the poisonous ideology of Nazi Germany along with many of the trappings but also America and its own times of self-justifying activity against enemies real, imagined, or manufactured. And other periods. Dooku supposedly is significantly inspired by Robert E. Lee.

But underneath everything you had an aging and increasingly ineffectual republic centered around a gleaming capital seated upon a foundation of filth, corrupt and with rusting gears that may or may not turn on any given day. Brigandage rises due to the general dysfunction, so does dissent as various voiceless polities come to terms with the fact that they have no means of redress save by the sword, until eventually it is saved by a powerful figure whose entry into office was a clear violation of law to grand applause. A few reforms and the Senate is nigh voiceless, nothing gets better but it certainly looks impressive, and eventually a not particularly willing ally that the dictator thought he had under his thumb plants his dagger. It checks off a lot of boxes.

Rome was absolutely one more inspiration and the parallels with its administrative and military divisions seems to match fairly closely. It also matches a lot of other things fairly closely in large part because the world has spent ages ripping off everything Rome ever did.
 
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Modus_Tollens said:
Rome was absolutely one more inspiration and the parallels with its administrative and military divisions seems to match fairly closely. It also matches a lot of other things fairly closely in large part because the world has spent ages ripping off everything Rome ever did.
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Hell, Palpatine has more in common with Augustus than with Hitler. Augustus spent most of his reign firmly establishing himself as a demi-god to be worshipped via deifying Julius Caesar, brutally cracking down on anyone that he thought might be a threat, and, as mentioned, winnowing the power of the Senate while still leaving it technically intact.

Even the Separatist Crisis/Clone Wars has a lot in common with the war between Octavian and Mark Antony. Roman society as a whole was very against the idea of civil war (at the time), but Octavian framed it as Antony being corrupted by a foreign queen (Cleopatra), thus framing it as a war against a foreign power.
 
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At this point it feels like we are just talking about forming the Galatic Alliance 2-3 generations early and I'm not sure I see that happening.
 
Nyvis said:
The what. Was this is any movie :V
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Legends New Republic found that it's governance style was just as unwieldy as the Old Republic, and much like the Canon NR lacked an effective/deliberately had a weak executive branch. This was fine against the Imperial Remnants and Palpatine's upteenth reincarnation because their cartoonish evil sabotaged their own efforts.

But then the Vong hit and suddenly it wasnt enough. Too many worlds were falling and massacred while the NR couldn't respond in time

So the NR reformed into the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. You can see why people just call it the Galactic Alliance or just the Alliance. A Federation/Federal State that allowed members to join as either planets or as Sectors/their interstellar states. Member States took care of regional affairs while receiving help from the central state. The central Gov took in taxes build a federal army and fleet that could be directed to crisis points.

Also there were seats in the government that were reserved for the Jedi. Luke ended up getting exiled by one of the Senator Master Jedi I think.
 
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Deadly Snark said:
Legends New Republic found that it's governance style was just as unwieldy as the Old Republic, and much like the Canon NR lacked an effective/deliberately had a weak executive branch. This was fine against the Imperial Remnants and Palpatine's upteenth reincarnation because their cartoonish evil sabotaged their own efforts.

But then the Vong hit and suddenly it wasnt enough. Too many worlds were falling and massacred while the NR couldn't respond in time

So the NR reformed into the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. You can see why people just call it the Galactic Alliance or just the Alliance. A Federation/Federal State that allowed members to join as either planets or as Sectors/their interstellar states. Member States took care of regional affairs while receiving help from the central state. The central Gov took in taxes build a federal army and fleet that could be directed to crisis points.

Also there were seats in the government that were reserved for the Jedi. Luke ended up getting exiled by one of the Senator Master Jedi I think.
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Sorry you got caught in my bit where I pretend bits of canon I don't like or haven't read aren't real :V

The New Republic being equally as unwieldy (though probably in different ways) makes total sense canonically though considering where it comes from. It's reclaiming the core of the old republic and empire and squatting in its capital but it was spearheaded by a rebellion reforged in the outer rim, and having to deal with all the cracks in the old republic plus all the cracks in its own coalition plus all the imperial civil war remnants.
 
Nyvis said:
The New Republic being equally as unwieldy (though probably in different ways) makes total sense canonically though considering where it comes from. It's reclaiming the core of the old republic and empire and squatting in its capital but it was spearheaded by a rebellion reforged in the outer rim, and having to deal with all the cracks in the old republic plus all the cracks in its own coalition plus all the imperial civil war remnants.
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Hey at least Legends New Republic went down swinging. A good way to die all things considered.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Legends New Republic found that it's governance style was just as unwieldy as the Old Republic, and much like the Canon NR lacked an effective/deliberately had a weak executive branch. This was fine against the Imperial Remnants and Palpatine's upteenth reincarnation because their cartoonish evil sabotaged their own efforts.

But then the Vong hit and suddenly it wasnt enough. Too many worlds were falling and massacred while the NR couldn't respond in time

So the NR reformed into the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. You can see why people just call it the Galactic Alliance or just the Alliance. A Federation/Federal State that allowed members to join as either planets or as Sectors/their interstellar states. Member States took care of regional affairs while receiving help from the central state. The central Gov took in taxes build a federal army and fleet that could be directed to crisis points.

Also there were seats in the government that were reserved for the Jedi. Luke ended up getting exiled by one of the Senator Master Jedi I think.
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It involved Daala becoming head of state...legends fans don't like to talk about these dark times.
In the legacy era the jedi kinda disconnected themselves from the state they had a whole secret temple complex when Krayt tookover the galaxy.
The imperial knight with their space monarchy by contrast took the exact opposite stance and become a jedi-monarchy.
 
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