Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

Oshha said:

I'm surprised at how much Zaranna and her worshippers get romanticised. The entire religion is built on being strong enough to do whatever you want.

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Probably because a lot of people like the idea of Slaves fighting for their freedom being good, and dislike the implication that the slave revolt is inherently bad and should be crushed.

10ebbor10 said:

Probably because a lot of people like the idea of Slaves fighting for their freedom being good, and dislike the implication that the slave revolt is inherently bad and should be crushed.

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Where is the implication that it is inherently bad and should be crushed?

Oshha said:

Where is the implication that it is inherently bad and should be crushed?

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Raichu1972 said:

"While many had idealised the Zaranna zealots as heroic freedom fighters rising up against their enslavers and fighting back against the tyranny of the Forluc, Evatine and her army found to the truth anything but. In many ways, the Zaranna were worse than the Forluc as the Forluc installed at least some order and civilisation for all the evils they committed. The Zaranna were barbarians, uncivilised savages who believed in the right of might with the strong tormenting the weak. Living under the Zaranna zealots was a life of madness and suffering unlike anything else that the Arthwyd had encountered."

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If you describe the slave revolts as being worse than the situation before slavery, then you directly imply that crushing the slave revolt is a good idea.

Even more so if imply that such a situation will happen every time Zaranna creates a revolt.

Raichu1972 said:

It has been several, several generations since the Coltyre Confederation was formed; if there was some kind of civilization or overarching form of governance (which there wasn't because these were lowlander tribes) then it would have been long forgotten by now.
There is fundamentally no difference between the Zaranna slave uprising in the Forluc and the Zaranna slave uprising in the Coltyre; it's groups of lowlander slaves deciding that they no longer want to be at the bottom and instead want to be at the top.

Like hell, not even we know what kind of systems of governance these myriad groups of lowlanders had before being enslaved over the generations. There would be no "reinstalling the old system" or "bringing their civilization back to life". We've seen what the outcomes of these uprisings are and they are not pretty for anyone, even the slaves.

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Uh, no. Oshha has even WoG it. Coltyre is a "conquered nation".

Unless you want to elaborate on it further, @Oshha?

Oshha said:

I'm surprised at how much Zaranna and her worshippers get romanticised. The entire religion is built on being strong enough to do whatever you want.

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lol, in my case, I guess I just held out hope that the religion was redeemable.

No "romanticing" from now on.

[X] [Metal] Bronze-Urthmyr Weapons
[X] [Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
[X] [GA] Unlock the Palace Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
[X] [Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)

Zaranna is a Wildling Goddess. Her opposing slavery doesnt' make her good. She's social-darwinism made manifest.

10ebbor10 said:

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If you got "slaves revolts are inherently bad and should be crushed from that", then you are reading into stuff that isn't there and frankly, I don't get why you are assuming that all slave revolts are bad from just a single example of one going bad.

BlueFlamingWings said:

Unless you want to elaborate on it further, @Oshha?

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The Coltyre Confederation was conquered out centuries ago. Any prior governments are long gone.

BlueFlamingWings said:

lol, in my case, I guess I just held out hope that the religion was redeemable.

No "romanticing" from now on.

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The thing is, her religion can be good or bad. She supports the strongest imposing their will because they can. That person could be a good person doing good deeds or a bad person doing bad deeds. She will just as happily support a slaver enslaving people just as she would someone being strong enough to dismantle slavery.

HanEmpire said:

Zaranna is a Wildling Goddess. Her opposing slavery doesnt' make her good. She's social-darwinism made manifest.

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Pretty much this. Zaranna isn't good or bad and I don't get why people insist on assuming that she must be good or when she is proven not to be inherently good, she must therefore be bad. Zaranna doesn't care about morality or ethics, only strength and power. You need to be strong to get her support and you can be good or bad.

@Oshha Do you mind telling elaborating a bit on what our people think of each course of action for the Forluc decision?

Like, what will happen to our diplomatic relations is we refuse? What would the Forluc be like if they won? What would probably happen if their invasion lost, would they get counter-invaded?
What would happen if we allied with the Forluc? What are their thoughts on how our relations would change going into the future?

Because right now it looks like a bunch of people are saying that if we refuse to help the Forluc, only good things for our civilisation would result. Whether or not the Forluc won or lost.

… Another question: What are the complications involved with us declaring war on the Forluc? Can we do it now? Can we do it if we refuse to help and then they lose the war? I know you've said casus belli haven't become a thing yet, but that just means we don't have to come up with an excuse to declare war. It doesn't mean there aren't all other reasons it might not be a good reason to go to war...

Asking that because it looks like some people want to have the Forluc go to war with the Coltyre without our help, then invade them and destroy them after the invasion...

Oshha said:

Pretty much this. Zaranna isn't good or bad and I don't get why people insist on assuming that she must be good or when she is proven not to be inherently good, she must therefore be bad. Zaranna doesn't care about morality or ethics, only strength and power. You need to be strong to get her support and you can be good or bad.

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An argument can be made that a complete lack of considering the ethical impacts of your actions make you bad by default.

Pyro Hawk said:

Like, what will happen to our diplomatic relations is we refuse? What would the Forluc be like if they won? What would probably happen if their invasion lost, would they get counter-invaded?
What would happen if we allied with the Forluc? What are their thoughts on how our relations would change going into the future?

Because right now it looks like a bunch of people are saying that if we refuse to help the Forluc, only good things for our civilisation would result. Whether or not the Forluc won or lost.

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No change. If you don't help and they win, they won't care. If they lost, whether or not they get counter-invaded depends on what the situation is like when they lose.

Increases relationships with them and the potential to form a more lasting pact between you, them and the Urthdysh. The Forluc would like to have closer ties with the Arthwyd because you are strongest power in the region and they are admire your culture and people.

Pyro Hawk said:

… Another question: What are the complications involved with us declaring war on the Forluc? Can we do it now? Can we do it if we refuse to help and then they lose the war? I know you've said casus belli haven't become a thing yet, but that just means we don't have to come up with an excuse to declare war. It doesn't mean there aren't all other reasons it might not be a good reason to go to war...

Asking that because it looks like some people want to have the Forluc go to war with the Coltyre without our help, then invade them and destroy them after the invasion...

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You could do it right now, but it would make Urthdysh freak out about you again and future relations with both them and the Forluc would be very cooled. Yes, you could invade them if you don't help and they lose their war.

10ebbor10 said:

An argument can be made that a complete lack of considering the ethical impacts of your actions make you bad by default.

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Sure, that is one way of looking at things.

Why is somebody thinking of declaring war on Forluc? Why invading Colyte gets a free pass and invading Forluc doesn't.

Kiba said:

Why is somebody thinking of declaring war on Forluc? Why invading Colyte gets a free pass and invading Forluc doesn't.

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Because the Forluc are the Bad Guys, of course, and attacking the Bad Guys has to be Good. That's how it works!

Meanwhile, the guys the Bad Guys are attacking have to be Good because if they weren't the Bad Guys wouldn't be attacking them.

Forluc's tentatively our ally and powerful enough to be a hard fight.
Colyte is not our ally and is about to be punched in the face by our ally.
Naturally, if we join in the war, it will be with the Forluc punching the Colyte in the face.

Oshha said:

but rather use of the All-Seeress' magic,

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I think this should be "through the" or maybe "with the"

nat_401 said:

I think this should be "through the" or maybe "with the"

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Thanks for pointing that out, it is fixed now.

Zaealix said:

Forluc's tentatively our ally and powerful enough to be a hard fight.
Colyte is not our ally and is about to be punched in the face by our ally.
Naturally, if we join in the war, it will be with the Forluc punching the Colyte in the face.

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Also note that your relationship with the Coltyre is neutral while you have cordial relations with the Forluc.

Just checked and we built 11 actions of roads across the empire this turn in total, dont have a specific point I just think its pretty impressive when I think about it.

nat_401 said:

Just checked and we built 11 actions of roads across the empire this turn in total, dont have a specific point I just think its pretty impressive when I think about it.

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And we still got lot of infrastructure actions we need to take care of...

nat_401 said:

Just checked and we built 11 actions of roads across the empire this turn in total, dont have a specific point I just think its pretty impressive when I think about it.

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Speaking of actions we did 35 actions worth of stuff across the Empire this turn if you include the faction actions.

Vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest - Original | Page 483 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 12060-12174]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
Task: Demon
[X][Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)
No. of Votes: 28
[X][Demon] The Arthwyd kill it.
No. of Votes: 6

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Metal
[X][Metal] Leave it in storage.
No. of Votes: 24
[X][Metal] Bronze-Urthmyr Weapons
No. of Votes: 7
[X][Metal] Urthmyr Jewellery
No. of Votes: 4
[X][Metal] Urthmyr Weapons
No. of Votes: 2
[X][Metal] Gold-Urthmyr Jewellery
No. of Votes: 1

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Cadlon
[X][Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
No. of Votes: 25
[X][Cadlon] Elyn (Female, Excellent Diplo)
No. of Votes: 10
[X][Cadlon] Bediwyr (Female, Excellent Martial)
No. of Votes: 2

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Forluc
[X][Forluc] Refuse the offer.
No. of Votes: 24
[X][Forluc] Accept it with a more permanent alliance between the Arthwyd and the Forluc. (+1 Diplo)
No. of Votes: 14
[X][Forluc] Accept it with a temporary alliance for the duration of the war.
No. of Votes: 2

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: GA
[X][GA] Unlock the Grand Theatre Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 23
[X][GA] Unlock the Palace Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 13
[X][GA] Unlock the Aqueduct Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 10
[X][GA] Unlock the Great Market Place Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Wealth)
No. of Votes: 9
[X][GA] Upgrade Baby Boom to a Population Explosion. (-2 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain random administration technology advancement. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain random military technology advancement. (-1 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial,)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain random nautical technology advancement. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Mystic)
No. of Votes: 1
[X][GA] Gain a random Hero. (-3 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Martial)
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 40

Zaealix said:

Forluc's tentatively our ally and powerful enough to be a hard fight.
Colyte is not our ally and is about to be punched in the face by our ally.
Naturally, if we join in the war, it will be with the Forluc punching the Colyte in the face.

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but they aren't an ally. We don't have anyone in the general area that's not a colony that's an ally of us. The urth federation comes closest, and only because their goddesses wants to be with our goddess. Everyone else but us uses slaves. That's not acceptable. No alliances with slave states.

jjffjhjf said:

but they aren't an ally. We don't have anyone in the general area that's not a colony that's an ally of us. The urth federation comes closest, and only because their goddesses wants to be with our goddess. Everyone else but us uses slaves. That's not acceptable. No alliances with slave states.

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No alliance with 99% of the world then.

Kiba said:

No alliance with 99% of the world then.

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Alright. I'm good with that.

when will we build the grand library

[X][Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)
[X][Metal] Leave it in storage.
[X][Forluc] Accept it with a more permanent alliance between the Arthwyd and the Forluc. (+1 Diplo)
[X][Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
[X][GA] Unlock the Grand Theatre Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)

[X][Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)
[X][Metal] Leave it in storage.
[X][Forluc] Accept it with a more permanent alliance between the Arthwyd and the Forluc. (+1 Diplo)
[X][Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
[X][GA] Unlock the Grand Theatre Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)