Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

With an alliance with the Forluc we can influence them through diplomacy and secure peace whilst our colonys build up and we recruit a decent sized army finally.

Oshha said:

Just to clear things up, this is something that already happens.

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How do those 2 blessings interact?

The Forluc blessing blesses those who're in a higher social position. How does that work in a society which has no official classes, and an ideal of people being equal. Does it simply treat everyone as equal, or does it amplify implicit social classes and thereby further attack our equality value.

Hrm.
So...DO we fight Forluc now or later? I'm for NOW, actually-
We just had a Demon give us a reason to uptech our martial and flattened his butt, and if we give the Forluc time they'll get more martial then we have and flatten us.
Plus because Infrastructure backlog our place of power might be fortified but our outer edges, not so much. Flipside to that is it won't suck as bad if we lose them.
[X][Forluc] Refuse the offer.

As for mister stuck in a ring? Well...
[X][Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)
If the Foresters blow up it's their fault for screwing the pooch. And we're going to want that knowledge.

[X][GA] Gain random military technology advancement. (-1 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial,)
NEED MILITARY TECH!

[X][Metal] Urthmyr Weapons
I realize this vote will lose, but I think we might need it- I think we found the Urthmyr around the Forloc's territory or so, and thus there's a major question of who made those chains to begin with. If they befriend the Forluc...

[X][Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
Because the Forloc swing will should be like 2-3 turns off what with going after the Coltyre instead of immeadiately, we want an Admin Cadlon that can see about getting the resources we will need.

nat_401 said:

With an alliance with the Forluc we can influence them through diplomacy and secure peace whilst our colonys build up and we recruit a decent sized army finally.

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We can influence them via diplomacy now. No reason for an explicit alliance.

taovkool said:

[X] [Demon] The Arthwyd kill it.

Look guys, when there's a self proclaimed demon who snapped clean the neck of it's savior, the best thing to do would be to put an end to it. Permanently.

I'll think about the other votes later. I'm too sleepy to think about this shit.

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My hope is that the Urthwyd can learn more about it and it's weaknesses. This demon exists so that must mean others do as well and of the current Civs around the Urthwyd have the best chance of not screwing up and actually getting something out of it. It doesn't hurt that we have a very good relationship with them at the moment already.

UlseDovThur said:

My hope is that the Urthwyd can learn more about it and it's weaknesses. This demon exists so that must mean others do as well and of the current Civs around the Urthwyd have the best chance of not screwing up and actually getting something out of it. It doesn't hurt that we have a very good relationship with them at the moment already.

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This is Urth we're talking about. They'll probably torture it into figuring out how to summon and bind more of its kind. Next thing you know Urthwyd has demons in its army.

[X][Forluc] Refuse the offer
[X][GA] Unlock the Grand Theatre Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)

10ebbor10 said:

How do those 2 blessings interact?

The Forluc blessing blesses those who're in a higher social position. How does that work in a society which has no official classes, and an ideal of people being equal. Does it simply treat everyone as equal, or does it amplify implicit social classes and thereby further attack our equality value.

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Kids get thrown into the same pool so they have the same blessing growing up until they get to adulthoods and their first job. If they become a ringleader as a kid, it would improve their blessing. Once they are adults, it depends on their job and how social influential and respected they are. A member of the military or priesthood would have a good Nalnir blessing which would improve as they rise up through the ranks. Otherwise, it varies on how much you are respected and listened to by others within your community. Some average farmer or crafter would have mediocre blessing while an elder who has a lot of respect and influence within their community would have a high tier blessing. Do note how elders, respected and experienced members of any non-sacred profession can sit on the Assembly alongside the ranking members of the military and the priesthood.

In Arthwyd society, social position is less social classes and more how much influential and followers you can get. The only real society classes are the sacred jobs such as the royal family being at the top and the priesthood and military being treated as more prestigious and respected due to them being servants of the goddesses.

[X][Forluc] Refuse the offer.

Oshha said:

Kids get thrown into the same pool so they have the same blessing growing up until they get to adulthoods and their first job. If they become a ringleader as a kid, it would improve their blessing. Once they are adults, it depends on their job and how social influential and respected they are. A member of the military or priesthood would have a good Nalnir blessing which would improve as they rise up through the ranks. Otherwise, it varies on how much you are respected and listened to by others within your community. Some average farmer or crafter would have mediocre blessing while an elder who has a lot of respect and influence within their community would have a high tier blessing. Do note how elders, respected and experienced members of any non-sacred profession can sit on the Assembly alongside the ranking members of the military and the priesthood.

In Arthwyd society, social position is less social classes and more how much influential and followers you can get. The only real society classes are the sacred jobs such as the royal family being at the top and the priesthood and military being treated as more prestigious and respected due to them being servants of the goddesses.

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So the Blessings stack?

[x] [Demon] The Arthwyd kill it.
[x] [Metal] Leave it in storage.
[x] [Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
[x] [Forluc] Refuse the offer.
[x] [GA] Unlock the Aqueduct Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)

Oshha said:

Kids get thrown into the same pool so they have the same blessing growing up until they get to adulthoods and their first job. If they become a ringleader as a kid, it would improve their blessing. Once they are adults, it depends on their job and how social influential and respected they are. A member of the military or priesthood would have a good Nalnir blessing which would improve as they rise up through the ranks. Otherwise, it varies on how much you are respected and listened to by others within your community. Some average farmer or crafter would have mediocre blessing while an elder who has a lot of respect and influence within their community would have a high tier blessing. Do note how elders, respected and experienced members of any non-sacred profession can sit on the Assembly alongside the ranking members of the military and the priesthood.

In Arthwyd society, social position is less social classes and more how much influential and followers you can get. The only real society classes are the sacred jobs such as the royal family being at the top and the priesthood and military being treated as more prestigious and respected due to them being servants of the goddesses.

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What about the heriditary element?

IIRC, children of major leaders still had some boost over their peers among the Forluc, is that a thing here?

[X] [Demon] The Arthwyd kill it.
[X] [Metal] Leave it in storage.
[X] [Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
[X] [Forluc] Refuse the offer.
[X] [GA] Unlock the Palace Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)

Are you people nuts? Fighting the Coltyre will see our lands burn.

10ebbor10 said:

Everyone may be a slaver, that doesn't mean we need to be one too, for no reason at all.

The bare facts are this :

1) We already have more colonies and more vassals than we ever had, and more than we can realistically handle.
2) We will be going directly against our values by aiding another state in enslaving people. Our forces will directly complicit in the enslaving of others, with no other motive than blatant expansionism.
3) The result vassal will be rebellious, and a massive hassle to deal with. Their culture is probably opposite to ours, maybe even more so than the Maradysh. Zarrandas influence will not vanish, and she'll make them rebel against our communal laws.
4) Our actions will end up strengthening the Forluc, which we do not want.
5) Our actions will make us ally with the Forluc, which we also do not want. We don't want to copy Forluc values. Heck, the mere intermarriage of a Forluc citizens and an Arthwyd citizen will be destructive in the long run, because their blessing is inherently damaging to the idea that everyone should be equal.

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I'm done having this discussion if you're going to blatantly misrepresent my points.

UlseDovThur said:

So the Blessings stack?

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Yes, but not all of the effects do.

10ebbor10 said:

What about the heriditary element?

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There is no heredity element to the blessing beyond getting it from a parent. However, it is tied to social position, which can be heredity.

@BlueFlamingWings, @jamie96969, @soulcake, @Pyre: your Forluc votes are invalid. Please edit them to the proper form:

[] [Forluc] Refuse the offer.

Vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest - Original | Page 483 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 12060-12132]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
Task: Demon
[X][Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)
No. of Votes: 20
[X][Demon] The Arthwyd kill it.
No. of Votes: 6

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——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Metal
[X][Metal] Leave it in storage.
No. of Votes: 17
[X][Metal] Bronze-Urthmyr Weapons
No. of Votes: 6
[X][Metal] Urthmyr Jewellery
No. of Votes: 4
[X][Metal] Urthmyr Weapons
No. of Votes: 2
[X][Metal] Gold-Urthmyr Jewellery
No. of Votes: 1

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Cadlon
[X][Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
No. of Votes: 17
[X][Cadlon] Elyn (Female, Excellent Diplo)
No. of Votes: 7
[X][Cadlon] Bediwyr (Female, Excellent Martial)
No. of Votes: 2

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Forluc
[X][Forluc] Refuse the offer.
No. of Votes: 17
[X][Forluc] Accept it with a more permanent alliance between the Arthwyd and the Forluc. (+1 Diplo)
No. of Votes: 13
[X][Forluc] Accept it with a temporary alliance for the duration of the war.
No. of Votes: 2

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: GA
[X][GA] Unlock the Grand Theatre Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 15
[X][GA] Unlock the Palace Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 12
[X][GA] Unlock the Aqueduct Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 9
[X][GA] Unlock the Great Market Place Megaproject. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Wealth)
No. of Votes: 8
[X][GA] Upgrade Baby Boom to a Population Explosion. (-2 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain random administration technology advancement. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Mystic, -1 Temp Culture)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain random military technology advancement. (-1 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial,)
No. of Votes: 2
[X][GA] Gain a random Hero. (-3 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Martial)
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 30

[X] [Metal] Leave it in storage.
[X] [GA] Unlock the Grand Theatre Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
[X] [Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
[X] [Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)
[X] [Forluc] Refuse the offer.

Tactically, we are not in a position to contest boarfolks cavalry units, given how small our cavalry forces are.

Cariyaga said:

I'm done having this discussion if you're going to blatantly misrepresent my points.

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What is being misrepresented?

You tried to argue that for the sake of Realpolitik, we should do this. I pointed out a number of reasons why that would be a bad idea, many of those are still relevant under realpolitik.

There's no reason for us to be actively complicit and aiding in the mass enslavement of others, especially when there's nothing to gain and much to lose.

Edit: If we're going to complain about misrepresenting points, then I feel the need to point out that your argument was a complete non-sequitur. I point out that contrary to your expectations, the people who conquer may actually hate us. You answer that by completely ignoring the point about the conquered people, and instead start arguing about realpolitik and slaver allies.

Oshha said:

The Coltyre Confederation is not their home nation, just a conquered nation ruled by a few Boarfolk tribes. Furthermore, the Boarfolk are not anymore unified than humanity is. The only thing that the Coltyre share with other Boarfolk is the species and the religion.

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...

So, isn't there a chance here to liberate them like we should have done with the Maradysh?

Not allying with slavers doesn't convince me. But people convinced me that it's a bad idea, strategically and tactically.

[X][Metal] Leave it in storage.
[X][Cadlon] Elyn (Female, Excellent Diplo)

[X][Forluc] Refuse the offer.

BlueFlamingWings said:

So, isn't there a chance here to liberate them like we should have done with the Maradysh?

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Potentially.

Oshha said:

Potentially.

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Good enough for me.

[X] [Demon] The Urthdysh take it home. (+1 Diplo, Free Magical Knowledge)
[X] [Metal] Leave it in storage.
[X] [Cadlon] Isoldyn (Female, Excellent Admin)
[X] [Forluc] Accept it with a more permanent alliance between the Arthwyd and the Forluc. (+1 Diplo)
[X] [GA] Unlock the Grand Theatre Megaproject. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)

For all you war-supporters out there.

Oshha said:

This was only a minor setback as the Boarfolk tribes just returned to their nomadic routes and lived off the land or retreated back to the villages they did still control. While the Boarfolk had been put on the defensive for now, they still had their dire boar cavalry to the light infantry of the rebels even if the latter was far more numerous than the former.

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The boarcavarly is still fully intact. It has not been diminished by the slave revolt. If we attack, then we're going to be sending an infantry force against heavy cavalry, a combination that we've repeatedly seen results in said infantry force being utterly torn to shreds.

Now, we may win through weight of numbers, but everyone here who assumes this is going to be a cakewalk is probably sorely mistaken.