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What are controversial gaming opinions you have?

foamy said:
A minute of dualcasted flames is 1,050 damage without any perks whatsoever and would cost you over 2,300 magicka. I think you may have been using it on an inappropriate target.
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There is a thing called 'hyperbole', Foamy, in which a person exaggerates some details about a thing in order to better convey how they feel about a thing. And what I can tell you about how I felt is that despite dumping the vast majority of levelups into Magicka I was still running my bar completely dry with depressing regularity. Gimme that 1% regen per second combat regen running away and getting stuffed in lockers by giant spiders while some Chad in iron armour over there is regenerating 1.75% of his stamina bar that he doesn't even need for his basic weapon attacks, just the power swings. And we're in the same amount of danger too, because just ask the guy who got stabbed in the dick during Surviving Edged Weapons - 30 feet away is not enough distance to stop the guy you're flaming from running up and stabbing you.

And then there's that part where Dualcast is fucked (x2.8 magicka cost for x2.2 damage lol excellent balance my dudes 1.6/s more damage on my flames is not worth sucking away 11.2/s more of my precious magicka) so I would make sure to click the mouse buttons asynchronously instead and just run around with my hands extended like I was offering everyone the most dangerous game of high-stakes pattycake Skyrim had ever seen.

And then there's that problem where your weapon damage will gradually and linearly scale with your skill increases like you would expect a videogame that makes sense to do, but the only way to directly boost the damage of spells is to get the relevant perks. Everything else is just reducing mana cost, and when the problem right out of the starting gate is that spells feel like spraying watery piss with some fancy particle effects to no avail, that's pretty phenomenally poor game design. Especially when weapon attacks synergise with every crafting skill in the game whereas spells, again, don't.

Again, I lived this. I had Lizard Wizard searching far and wide to find some fucking appropriate enchants, and he ever got to show for his efforts was a somewhat cool-looking black robe with some minor casting-cost reduction that just led to him getting mulched in three attacks while trying to actually kill the goddamn enemy - because as it turns out, increasing damage potential by spreading it out over a longer period of time doesn't actually help when you're playing a squishy wizard being pelted with arrows and pummelled with maces.

Like, there is a reason that the vast majority of players think Destruction is bad. It's not some secret Soviet mind-virus. If you are adamant that it's actually not bad you just have to use it right, fine, I will amend it only to this - it's implemented terribly, the absolute worst skill in the game as far as player conveyance goes, and Bethesda still deserve to get shit for it.
 
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ZerbanDaGreat said:
There is a thing called 'hyperbole', Foamy, in which a person exaggerates some details about a thing in order to better convey how they feel about a thing. And what I can tell you about how I felt is that despite dumping the vast majority of levelups into Magicka I was still running my bar completely dry with depressing regularity.
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Okay. But here's the thing: if Flames are taking too long to kill something, use a different spell. It's that simple. You can get Firebolt immediately, for example, and the perk to make it ridiculously cost effective by L25 destruction, which is only a couple of player levels.

You know what you're fighting at that point? Ordinary bandits. They have 35 HP. That's a second and a half of dual Flames (two seconds, without the perk) and one dual cast of Firebolt (perked or not). Bandit Outlaws start showing up at level 5, and they're a whopping two dual casts of Firebolt to nuke.

I don't disagree that the progression isn't communicated great, but it's there, and if you're running around trying to kill things with *the starting spell* beyond, like, Bleak Falls, you're just as silly as someone getting annoyed that their Helgen loot isn't working great at killing Alduin.

See, people get into the mindset of 'I need to boost the damage of spells', but what spells actually are is the equivalent of a weapon. And how many times do you replace or upgrade that during a playthrough if you're playing a smashy build, eh? You don't need to make a particular spell stronger, you get a better spell.

Not that you need anything better than Fireball and Thunderbolt, really. Fireball's the AoE for dealing with ground mobs, Thunderbolt's the precision assassination tool for dragons.
 
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Magic in oblivion was great, and from what little of morrowind i've played on me laptop ( starting town cave wizard kills me lots lol) magic there is nice too.

But skyrim went way too basic in everything, and thats part of why its so ineffective.
 
foamy said:
Okay. But here's the thing: if Flames are taking too long to kill something, use a different spell. It's that simple. You can get Firebolt immediately, for example, and the perk to make it ridiculously cost effective by L25 destruction, which is only a couple of player levels.

You know what you're fighting at that point? Ordinary bandits. They have 35 HP. That's a second and a half of dual Flames (two seconds, without the perk) and one dual cast of Firebolt (perked or not). Bandit Outlaws start showing up at level 5, and they're a whopping two dual casts of Firebolt to nuke.

I don't disagree that the progression isn't communicated great, but it's there, and if you're running around trying to kill things with *the starting spell* beyond, like, Bleak Falls, you're just as silly as someone getting annoyed that their Helgen loot isn't working great at killing Alduin.
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Look, I dunno what to tell you man. We're talking six or seven years ago. I have a limited amount of those memories left and they're all centred a recurring cycle of getting pissed about my terrible damage output and crawling back to my Lizard Wizard hole (which I think was some random bandit keep I'd cleared out and kept squatting in for its alchemy and/or enchanting workstation) to try and remedy that however I could. Maybe I missed picking up Firebolt for whatever reason, maybe I didn't but went "oh hey I get slightly more DPS out of just using Flames anyway so I'll do that instead", idfk.

I could try to remedy this but frankly I don't care enough about this argument to reinstall Skyrim and make a mage :V
 
BrokenAscendent said:
But skyrim went way too basic in everything, and thats part of why its so ineffective.
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'ineffective' what

Magic generally -- not limited to just Destruction -- is the most effective and versatile thing you get in Skyrim. Instant armour cap, infinite health, huge resistances (or immunity) to magic, infinite stamina, invisibility, inaudibility, AoE, damage, traps, zero-weight weapons, detection, stunlock, minions, mind games, paralysis, enchanting...

I didn't even take Conjuration or Illusion attack spells (or anything in Enchanting) 'cause I was proving a point about Destruction, but even without those it's crazy. Fistfighting giants is a thing a mage can win in the nude and with unlevelled health. :p
 
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The mention of Nier: Automata in this scaling/levels/butwhy discussion has drawn me out of my garbage sewer.

It's important to note that Nier: Automata does not have any actual level scaling. Enemies progress in level/power/difficulty based on a pre-determined curve, but they do not actually scale with the player. When you see an enemy at level X, that enemy in that place at that time was always going to be level X, and if you come BACK to that enemy at that place at that time later, they will still be that level X.

Thus, progression in Nier isn't a zero-sum advancement. You have capacity to grow beyond your foes, while also having the capacity to not have gotten as big as them when you find them the first time. All while acquiring new skill chips, weapons, and pod upgrades.

And that's not even mentioning the DLC areas where not being level 99 and hyper kitted out makes it impossible to beat some challenges.
 
foamy said:
'ineffective' what

Magic generally -- not limited to just Destruction -- is the most effective and versatile thing you get in Skyrim. Instant armour cap, infinite health, huge resistances (or immunity) to magic, infinite stamina, invisibility, inaudibility, AoE, minions, mind games, paralysis, enchanting...

I didn't even take Conjuration or Illusion attack spells 'cause I was proving a point about Destruction, but even without those it's crazy. Fistfighting giants is a thing a mage can win in the nude and with unlevelled health. :p
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And how much of any of that is shown in-game to starting players? Specifically those novices I mentioned earlier?

If potential mages have to put the game down and pick up a tutorial somewhere else the game designers have done something wrong.

That said, with the exception of mind games everything you mention is available to characters who just dabble in magic here and there. You can hire minions and then equip them from a fairly early point. (Helgen the minute you get there.) Paralysis can be granted to any weapon once you see the enchantment. Anyone who smiths even a little can hit the armor cap. Infinite health comes from Restoration and not using your magicka for anything else. A warrior who uses their magicka to heal themselves will eventually get enough Restoration for Respite (infinite stamina) and the first rank in Recovery (Magicka regenerates 25% faster.) Invisibility and inaudibility are copied in Stealth.

So basically magicians can, by investing in the magical skills, get the same thing that everyone else can get if they choose.


On a side note I find it hilarious that you are mentioning enchanting as a magician thing. I find it far and away easier to level enchanting playing a hybrid warrior type. First chance I get to grab a soul stealing weapon I disenchant it. I then enchant a bow with the biggest gem I can afford - lowest duration for maximum number of charges - and do go run the dungeon in Markarth. The Falmer infesting the place are an easy, abundant source of souls to practice enchanting with. I have never had as easy a time playing a magician (which yes, I have done to a fairly high level) as I have with an archer in farming souls. My biggest problems have always been finding a copy of the Soul Trap weapon enchant and getting enough Soul Stones together.

Curse you, merchants, and your limited inventories! (Merchants who sell soul stones often have the wrong sizes for what I need. And dear lord the price jumps between sizes early on is bad.)


Edit: Note, to be totally fair, I like that in Skyrim you aren't limited to a specific role. Warriors can do the Thieves' guild quest. (Or just learn Thief skills.) Mages can put on armor. Great! Giving everyone all the options is the best way to go with a wide open game like this. I'm just annoyed that the Wizard type has a much harder time of it early on compared to every other option in the game.
 
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I'll note your counterpoint to 'magic is effective and versatile' is 'magic is so useful every build winds up using it', which I feel isn't.
 
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foamy said:
I'll note your counterpoint to 'magic is effective and versatile' is 'mage is so useful every build winds up using it', which I feel isn't.
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Right.

The only things I know of that most players regularly use when they aren't trying a pure mage run for the challenge of it are Restoration to heal themselves, Clairvoyance (if they cannot find the quest objective), Transmute (iron to gold for blacksmithing into things to sell or enchant then sell), and Enchanting.

That isn't "magic is effective and versatile." That is "specific things magic gives you are useful."
 
foamy said:
'ineffective' what

Magic generally -- not limited to just Destruction -- is the most effective and versatile thing you get in Skyrim. Instant armour cap, infinite health, huge resistances (or immunity) to magic, infinite stamina, invisibility, inaudibility, AoE, damage, traps, zero-weight weapons, detection, stunlock, minions, mind games, paralysis, enchanting...

I didn't even take Conjuration or Illusion attack spells (or anything in Enchanting) 'cause I was proving a point about Destruction, but even without those it's crazy. Fistfighting giants is a thing a mage can win in the nude and with unlevelled health. :p
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But half of those aren't in skyrim.

There isn't a spell to resist frost (there is an enchantment), same goes for most of that honestly.


Thats part of why I said that magic got dumbed down. Compare oblivion and skyrim and theres a huge difference.

ALso its been like 7 years, and Its possible I've forgotten some thing. Conjuration was pretty cool though.
 
Mechasaurian said:
I've been starting to wonder...

What exactly is the point of EXP and levelling, beyond making numbers go up?

The standard design for RPGs (and a lot of games with RPG mechanics thrown in) is for the player character to steadily grow bigger in HP, in attack power, etc. The thing is, the standard design is also for the enemies to become bigger in those same numbers (bigger attack power, bigger buckets of HP, etc). The result being that...the difficulty level stays basically the same as the player progresses.

I was struck by this when playing Nier: Automata. As I played, I steadily accrued bigger numbers, better swords, the ability to take more damage...but I progressed through the story, the enemies were steadily replaced by higher level versions of themselves. As in, these "new" enemies were mechanically identical, but with bigger numbers. And I thought to myself: why? What purpose is EXP and levelling serving here? Couldn't the game have just ditched those particular RPG mechanics entirely and just...not have lost anything?

This aspect of RPGs is at its worst when using level-scaled enemies. You know, when enemies automatically get stronger to keep up with the player, thus meaning that character progression...isn't. The player is esentially put on a treadmill. But I'm wondering if levelling for the PC should just be ditched altogether.

I think I'd like to play an RPG without the make-the-numbers-go-up aspect. Give me a character creation screen that allows me to create an extremely powerful character right at the beginning - choosing between diplomacy skills, fighting skills, hacking skills, whatever - and then let me loose in the world. If content has to be gated off until later, it can be done through quests, or hunts for certain key items. A sense of progression and strengthening can be gained through the acquisition of new and better/more flexible gear, through gaining allies, and so on - through organic means that fit into the fiction of the game world, rather than the PC mysteriously getting bigger buckets of HP as s/he kills more things.

(Fortunately for me, Miyazaki and FROM Software are making Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, which looks like a soulslike game without EXP/levelling. So I am certainly interested as to how that plays out.)
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The idea is simple: a way to present your progress and increase in power. When you level up in pretty much any rpg, you are not immediately transported to an area with on-level enemies, and the enemies around you are not buffed. Look at the Souls games. Enemies that start out as the big bads that are a huge threat to you in the early game, like the exectutioners in Bloodborne, are also found in multiples in the later game. Why? So a player who previously experienced a great struggle against said enemy will feel a sense of progress, growth, and satisfaction from overcoming a previous challenge. Maybe the play wanders into a new area that they are underleveled for. They would most likely struggle quite a bit. However, as they level up, they begin to defeat the previously challenging enemies with greater and greater ease.

This isn't even touching on weapon progression or skill progression systems.
 
Nicholai said:
And how much of any of that is shown in-game to starting players? Specifically those novices I mentioned earlier?

If potential mages have to put the game down and pick up a tutorial somewhere else the game designers have done something wrong.
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I have to say that in my experience playing as a pure mage was very viable and I had never played an Elder Scrolls game before.

If people don't bother to invest in more magicka or perks then it's hardly the game's fault if they don't see its full potential.

The point is that the poster said that magic in Skyrim was ineffective... which is only true if you don't actually try to use it.
 
Jakobstj said:
I think you mean Whiterun? Because unless I've missed something, there aren't really any people in Helgen that aren't trying to kill you.
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Right. Not Helgen, I was thinking of Riverwood. I spend so little time in those two places I can't keep it straight.

When you walk into town the town bard is arguing with his mother. Walk up and start talking to him. He tries to hire you to deliver a forged letter to Camilla, the sister of the general store's owner. He wants to ruin Sven's chances of romancing Camilla. If you tell her the truth and then talk to Sven you can hire him. He's an archer and not particularly good or bad at anything. But he's your first hireling minion if you want.
Fourthspartan56 said:
I have to say that in my experience playing as a pure mage was very viable and I had never played an Elder Scrolls game before.

If people don't bother to invest in more magicka or perks then it's hardly the game's fault if they don't see its full potential.

The point is that the poster said that magic in Skyrim was ineffective... which is only true if you don't actually try to use it.
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And my point is that magic is about as effective as anything else. You just get the abilities in different places. Magicians investing in Illusion can get invisibility. Anyone practicing the Stealth skill can get roughly the same effect for the amount of time it takes.

Combine that with the early misconceptions about how magic just isn't as useful as everything else and you end up with people thinking magic is just outright ineffective.
 
Nicholai said:
When you walk into town the town bard is arguing with his mother. Walk up and start talking to him. He tries to hire you to deliver a forged letter to Camilla, the sister of the general store's owner. He wants to ruin Sven's chances of romancing Camilla. If you tell her the truth and then talk to Sven you can hire him. He's an archer and not particularly good or bad at anything. But he's your first hireling minion if you want.
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... You mean Faendal, right? Pretty sure that Sven is the bard.
 
Grimnir said:
... You mean Faendal, right? Pretty sure that Sven is the bard.
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I could have sworn it was the other way around. It's been a year or so since I played.

Either way, the hireling you can get is also the novice archery trainer. That's the reason I remember it at all. I was leveling an archer on my second play through, did that quest, and then realized there was an option to train in the dialogue box. I just stared at the screen for a while because of how .. unique .. the game design decision seemed to be.

Give the hireling money to raise your archery. Okay, makes sense. Level up? Great. I will get some more hit points. Wait, I can take my money back from this guy because he's a hireling. How many levels can I get out of this guy?

I haven't done that trick since but the memory stuck with me.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
But half of those aren't in Skyrim.
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Dragonhide; Restoration; Magic Resist & Atronach perks (hits immunity with certain race/gear choices); Restoration with Respite; Invisibility; Muffle; the Adept Destruction and Master Illusion spells; Destruction & some Restoration spells; Runes; Bound weapons; Detect Life, Detect Dead, and Clairvoyance; Raise Dead and Summon Atronach; Illusion; Paralyze and Mass Paralysis; Enchanting.

And there's some stuff I forgot to mention, too, like Transmute or Mage/Candlelight.
 
Hayateknight said:
At least in the case of my favorite RPG KH2, while leveling up does increase stats, it also unlocks new abilities that make the game more fun to play as you go on which the game takes into account by giving enemies that have more dangerous move sets later in the game. It was the removal of earning those skills by level up in later games that made leveling up more or less completely pointless since as you said the number would just go up and the actual game changers didn't require you to level up at all.
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Some upgrades were also given to you after bosses or story fights/sequences. Couple that with damage floor scaling and a level 1 run was not only possible but an interesting challenge.
 
Nicholai said:
Give the hireling money to raise your archery. Okay, makes sense. Level up? Great. I will get some more hit points. Wait, I can take my money back from this guy because he's a hireling. How many levels can I get out of this guy?

I haven't done that trick since but the memory stuck with me.
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Yeah, any hireling trainers give you basically free training from what I remember?

Aela and Faendal in particular are useful if you want to level an archery build quickly.
 
Nicholai said:
If potential mages have to put the game down and pick up a tutorial somewhere else the game designers have done something wrong.
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It's a pity there isn't somewhere in the game were they teach magic, where the Masters of Magic and Sorcery in Skyrim convene, where we could get educated on matters magical from some of the best mages in Tamriel?

The College of Winterhold was robbed!
 
foamy said:
Dragonhide; Restoration; Magic Resist & Atronach perks (hits immunity with certain race/gear choices); Restoration with Respite; Invisibility; Muffle; the Adept Destruction and Master Illusion spells; Destruction & some Restoration spells; Runes; Bound weapons; Detect Life, Detect Dead, and Clairvoyance; Raise Dead and Summon Atronach; Illusion; Paralyze and Mass Paralysis; Enchanting.

And there's some stuff I forgot to mention, too, like Transmute or Mage/Candlelight.
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Ah you meant all the magic, I thought this was still limited to destruction only.
I still would argue that compared to oblivion (which had custom spells) skyrim is a bit lacking though.
 
greensun said:
It's a pity there isn't somewhere in the game were they teach magic, where the Masters of Magic and Sorcery in Skyrim convene, where we could get educated on matters magical from some of the best mages in Tamriel?

The College of Winterhold was robbed!
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What, you mean actually learning to do magic in the course of going to Magic College instead of running off to fight monsters in caves? Inconceivable!
 
Grimnir said:
What, you mean actually learning to do magic in the course of going to Magic College instead of running off to fight monsters in caves? Inconceivable!
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Honestly, if Feralda were to give lectures in the Hall of the Elements maybe once a week on the ins and outs of Destruction magic, I'd be a very happy man.

Also, there should have been generic NPC's in the College, it felt woefully empty with only your class and the Master Mages there. Heck there was even supposed to Mage-Guards that wore master robs to protect the college, they're still in the files of the game!
 
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