- Location
- The Hague
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Controversial gaming opinion: video games are good.
What are controversial gaming opinions you have?
- Location
- The Hague
- Pronouns
- He/Him
One of the things about Doom 2016, a genuinely great game and fantastic return for the franchise, is that it had a somewhat difficult development and was produced under all kinds of limitations. Doom Eternal made me realise those limitations were extremely important.
There's a vast difference in the storytelling philosophy between Doom 2016 and Eternal that's puzzling to me overall.
Doom 2016 presents us with the Doomslayer as a "Man With No Name" kind of figure. We never see his face. We never hear him speak. The game never deviates from his point of view. The simplicity of his motivations drive Hayden to frustration the entire game. Demonic lore is presented as largely optional codex entries, and some elements of Doomslayer's backstory can be reliably inferred from these entries and the environment, but otherwise take a backseat. His rage and power are the only consistent takeaways, and they are communicated entirely through his actions in silence.
Doom Eternal throws so much of this on its head. The camera frames Doomguy with reverence, characters will regularly talk about how cool or scary he is. Worldbuilding errata now demands your attention as a (rather underwhelming) backstory is carefully and explicitly outlined. We hear his voice.
These may seem like subtle points, but they add up to a markedly different experience of how we perceive the Doomslayer and his world as we play.
Eternal also undermines Doom 2016's story in a way I find particularly frustrating: Samuel Hayden is revealed to be not a man but an angel, well aware of the forces he's meddling with by experimenting with argent energy. In his divine wisdom he knows (or at least reliably believes) that his actions are necessary to prevail against the Makyrs.
This is way more boring than what we were presented with in 2016: a man consumed by hubris. He sees the crises' humanity experiences, and will risk compounding them to be their savior. But before the revelations Eternal gives us, the risk is real. He really is making a gamble that he arguably has no right to be making, because his ego has lead him to believe that he is empowered to do so. Having foreknowledge of the bigger picture with Eternal strips virtually all of this away.
I once expressed my dissatisfaction with Eternal's story on release, and I was met with basically "You're really going to criticize the story? In Doom? It's about killing demons lol". And yeah that's just it: you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't suddenly change your story from a light goofy little framework into something that the game is hugely preoccupied with, and then hide behind "uhh it's not that important lol". Clearly you thought it was important enough to put front and center!
Doom 2016 presents us with the Doomslayer as a "Man With No Name" kind of figure. We never see his face. We never hear him speak. The game never deviates from his point of view. The simplicity of his motivations drive Hayden to frustration the entire game. Demonic lore is presented as largely optional codex entries, and some elements of Doomslayer's backstory can be reliably inferred from these entries and the environment, but otherwise take a backseat. His rage and power are the only consistent takeaways, and they are communicated entirely through his actions in silence.
Doom Eternal throws so much of this on its head. The camera frames Doomguy with reverence, characters will regularly talk about how cool or scary he is. Worldbuilding errata now demands your attention as a (rather underwhelming) backstory is carefully and explicitly outlined. We hear his voice.
These may seem like subtle points, but they add up to a markedly different experience of how we perceive the Doomslayer and his world as we play.
Eternal also undermines Doom 2016's story in a way I find particularly frustrating: Samuel Hayden is revealed to be not a man but an angel, well aware of the forces he's meddling with by experimenting with argent energy. In his divine wisdom he knows (or at least reliably believes) that his actions are necessary to prevail against the Makyrs.
This is way more boring than what we were presented with in 2016: a man consumed by hubris. He sees the crises' humanity experiences, and will risk compounding them to be their savior. But before the revelations Eternal gives us, the risk is real. He really is making a gamble that he arguably has no right to be making, because his ego has lead him to believe that he is empowered to do so. Having foreknowledge of the bigger picture with Eternal strips virtually all of this away.
I once expressed my dissatisfaction with Eternal's story on release, and I was met with basically "You're really going to criticize the story? In Doom? It's about killing demons lol". And yeah that's just it: you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't suddenly change your story from a light goofy little framework into something that the game is hugely preoccupied with, and then hide behind "uhh it's not that important lol". Clearly you thought it was important enough to put front and center!
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hghwolf
Bird of contempt
I don't think there's that deep a reason for the differences ?
Doom 2016 blew every expectation out of the water and so the corpo machine smelled blood, leading to a much more 'generic AAA' game than Eternal could have been. There's still a rock solid core of DOOM but the way the story sucks off the Doom Mar... excuse me the Doomslayer and introduces deeper mysteries, the introduction of parkour, a AI buddy, chosen ones, evil counterparts and whatnot ? That's classic AAA shit.
Eternal is a game somewhat at odds with itself as a result.
Doom 2016 blew every expectation out of the water and so the corpo machine smelled blood, leading to a much more 'generic AAA' game than Eternal could have been. There's still a rock solid core of DOOM but the way the story sucks off the Doom Mar... excuse me the Doomslayer and introduces deeper mysteries, the introduction of parkour, a AI buddy, chosen ones, evil counterparts and whatnot ? That's classic AAA shit.
Eternal is a game somewhat at odds with itself as a result.
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- The Hague
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- He/Him
I don't think that makes any sense at all. 2016 is by far the safer and more 'corporate' game while Eternal is Id completely off the leash, no doubt buoyed by how well the 2016 game was received and how well it did. They basically got to make exactly the game they wanted without any real interference.
Also the Doomslayer name was introduced in the 2016 game ...? You also had an AI buddy!
I didn't like Eternal's narrative at all but yeah, it was absolutely off the wall in terms of overall design. The main issue with "corporate" is that it was arguably over-tutorialized, leading to players believing they had to shoot weakspots in order to kill demons instead of just rip'n'tearing their way through levels.
The_Reptile_
Jolly Good
- Location
- THE PITS OF HELL. Also known as Connecticut.
VEGA is a treasure and I will hear nothing to the contrary.
Mechanical
Initiate Action: Buzz
- Location
- Somewhere Strange
Honestly I've never heard anything particularly positive about the Doom Eternal lore and/or plot. Some people seem to hate it and some put up with it, but I've neevr really heard anything say 'yeah this is great'
Contention: "Executive super scientist plays god" is not any kind of plot foundation to be excited about. I haven't played Eternal yet and could believe the take there is worse, but losing Hayden's mortal hubris story is a big, big meh.
Kosjurake
The Wildest of Ronins
- Location
- Tokyo LOCCENT
God, I hate what Eternal did with Hayden's character. Absolutely hate it. Probably the worst decision they made from a writing perspective.
13th Bee
Worker
- Location
- Tennessee, USA.
I personally didn't enjoy Eternal's gameplay nearly as much as I enjoyed 2016's. I don't like the relatively small ammo pool you have that forces you to go hunt chaff to chainsaw. I don't like the amped-up rock-paper-scissors going on with the weapons and enemies. I don't like the infinitely respawning chaff enemies. Et cetera, et cetera.
The_Reptile_
Jolly Good
- Location
- THE PITS OF HELL. Also known as Connecticut.
Yes, once I realized what Eternal's gameplay loop was intended to be I started bouncing off it pretty hard. You had a winning formula in 2016, I don't know why you could just do *that*, but *more*.
Kosjurake
The Wildest of Ronins
- Location
- Tokyo LOCCENT
So like I'm partially in the same boat, but in some defense of Eternal's gameplay, 2016 was so good and so close to perfection, I can't actually blame them that improving it in some ways caused problems in otherways. They created an insanely tight gameplay loop for Eternal, and when it works it sings, but when it doesn't it screeches.
Really, my biggest complaint starts right from the very first room of Eternal when it comes to the rebalancing. In 2016, if I wanted to kill basic wandering zombie enemies, it was trivial to give them a quick pistol headshot or just punch them and then rip them in half.
Instead, my first experience in Eternal was getting half my healthbar mauled off by the weakest enemy in the game because I guess Doomguy just stopped hitting the gym between games and now it takes like a dozen punches to put a zombie into a glory kill state? And you don't have an unlimited ammo pistol anymore for fodder? And the combat loop only got more annoying from there, with things like the chainsaw now being exclusively for turning fodder into ammo pinatas instead of having the option to save it for big demon instakills (yeah yeah you get a sword for that... two thirds of the way through the game), or getting to now juggle glory kills, chainsaw kills, and a flamethrower on cooldowns for all your resources.
Eternal isn't awful or anything, and getting rid of the Rich Get Richer rune was probably a good idea since that thing was absurdly broken, but I definitely preferred 2016 overall.
Instead, my first experience in Eternal was getting half my healthbar mauled off by the weakest enemy in the game because I guess Doomguy just stopped hitting the gym between games and now it takes like a dozen punches to put a zombie into a glory kill state? And you don't have an unlimited ammo pistol anymore for fodder? And the combat loop only got more annoying from there, with things like the chainsaw now being exclusively for turning fodder into ammo pinatas instead of having the option to save it for big demon instakills (yeah yeah you get a sword for that... two thirds of the way through the game), or getting to now juggle glory kills, chainsaw kills, and a flamethrower on cooldowns for all your resources.
Eternal isn't awful or anything, and getting rid of the Rich Get Richer rune was probably a good idea since that thing was absurdly broken, but I definitely preferred 2016 overall.
- Location
- The Hague
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There are some real improvements in Eternal, like superior movement options and better weapon differentiation (though not necessarily better weapon design), but it suffers from an absolute overload of limited use abilities: freeze grenades, chainsaw fuel, sword charges, etc. Of these the worst is blood punch, it adds little to the gameplay loop and led to the complete devaluation of regular melee.
I think the best thing Eternal does is make chainsaw fuel functionally infinite (subject to regen over time). The "expend ammo, chainsaw, repeat" loop was kinda implied in Doom 2016 but not really because it's a finite resource- and players are loathe to waste a finite resource. I'd argue the other mechanics it introduces (ice and flames) are "more of the same", but it's correct that it adds up to be a pretty intense experience. Doesn't help that you start Eternal with all the mechanics 2016 introduced- it's a lot of cognitive load overall, I think.
It's not a unique idea or anything, but it doesn't have to be. I think the character of Hayden is still compelling in 2016. When he says he "accepts full responsibility" for everything on the station, I believe him (because bearing it means nothing to him). If Victor Frankenstein actually was god the entire time and his hapless creation was just another test run it kinda hits less, y'know?
It's not a unique idea or anything, but it doesn't have to be. I think the character of Hayden is still compelling in 2016. When he says he "accepts full responsibility" for everything on the station, I believe him (because bearing it means nothing to him). If Victor Frankenstein actually was god the entire time and his hapless creation was just another test run it kinda hits less, y'know?
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E.I.G.
Robo-Bird
- Pronouns
- It/They
The fact that the best defenders of Eternal's take on the combat loop can say is "it is fun to juggle these cooldown abilities for resources" is why I'm probably never going to play it.
I want the kind of FPS experience I think of when I consider the genre, which is one where ammo management is actually a part of the strategic gameplay instead of a tactical minigame. I want the question to be "do I use the super powerful stuff now, or save it for the next part", with repeat playthroughs being to work out the detail of when it is best to use what.
Alternatively, I want procedural stuff that makes it so it doesn't matter much, but those are typically less FPS games as I think of them and more another genre entirely.
Stuff like Risk of Rain 2, Gunfire Reborn, and Mothergunship where ammo isn't even a question for management and you juggle an infinite reload against semi-random enemies.
Basically, if the game is counting my complete ammo total then I want that to be done in order to impact the next level, not just a micro moment of the current one.
I want the kind of FPS experience I think of when I consider the genre, which is one where ammo management is actually a part of the strategic gameplay instead of a tactical minigame. I want the question to be "do I use the super powerful stuff now, or save it for the next part", with repeat playthroughs being to work out the detail of when it is best to use what.
Alternatively, I want procedural stuff that makes it so it doesn't matter much, but those are typically less FPS games as I think of them and more another genre entirely.
Stuff like Risk of Rain 2, Gunfire Reborn, and Mothergunship where ammo isn't even a question for management and you juggle an infinite reload against semi-random enemies.
Basically, if the game is counting my complete ammo total then I want that to be done in order to impact the next level, not just a micro moment of the current one.
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- The Hague
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- He/Him
There's an almost Devil May Cry element to working with the various weapons which I think is fun, and there's nothing really wrong with a shooter that isn't rooted in careful ammo management around your preferred weapon or weapon type. A pared down moveset would mostly support this loop. It's kind of weird that the game has three enhanced melees lol
I should stress that I don't think Eternal's gameplay is bad. Except for the goop, that shit sucks.
I should stress that I don't think Eternal's gameplay is bad. Except for the goop, that shit sucks.
On it's own, absolutely. But that was merely one part of Hayden's character. The others were a staunch refusal to take any other path, or even understand the danger of what he was meddling with.
To the point that I theorized that Hayden lost his soul when he went full robot (yes, yes, he is still a brain in a jar), and thus was incapable of being tempted by Hell at all. This made him drastically under-estimate the actual threat Argent energy posed to others, and the growing Hellcult his company was becoming that Olivia Pierce had created.
Because Olivia is not subtle about what she's doing, at all. And Hayden just misses all of it and doubles down on making all the same mistakes again at the end of the game. The contrast between the brillant man who managed to tap Hell for power, and the blind fool who learned nothing by the end of the Slayer's journey through the Mars facility is completely undercut by Eternal's terrible writing decisions.
Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
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- He/Him
Eternal's problem was that it was way too aware of its own epic status, and as a result every attempt at a meme, reference, or epic moment had to be dragged out until it became funny in the bad way. Let's make the same rip and tear joke 2016 did, only let's do it five times. Let's have shitty voice acting that emphasizes...every...word...to emphasize how awesome the Doom Slayer is. If someone had cut most of the redundant jokes and tightened up the delivery it would have been...not great, probably, but a shitload better. There's no salvaging the decision with Samuel Hayden though.
Reptile is referring to VEGA, the helpful AI character from Doom 2016 that nearly sacrifices itself blowing up its power system to help the player stop the demon invasion, but the Doom marine spares a moment to make a download of him at the last second in one of the game's more heartwarming moments.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
I kinda like Doom Eternal's lore dumping just because it feels exactly like the kind of super-90s He-Man But Hardcore sensibility that I'd expect from someone like John Romero (or whoever actually wrote it I guess).
I will also defend a lot of the objectively distracting gameplay cruft to the hilt. Even the platforming because I think it's intentionally sadistic, which is fitting for a game about hell. I also have a lot of respect for how often they have you doing really marginal borderline leap of faith jumps in a fucking FPS. That kind of hostile design takes real balls.
What I won't defend is having so many damn mechanics that they literally starting tripping over eachother on the controller. The worst was the mid-air slowmo rune. Which is completely incompatible with a number of weapon types and firing modes. Including the ones that would be MOST useful in slowmo.
I will also defend a lot of the objectively distracting gameplay cruft to the hilt. Even the platforming because I think it's intentionally sadistic, which is fitting for a game about hell. I also have a lot of respect for how often they have you doing really marginal borderline leap of faith jumps in a fucking FPS. That kind of hostile design takes real balls.
What I won't defend is having so many damn mechanics that they literally starting tripping over eachother on the controller. The worst was the mid-air slowmo rune. Which is completely incompatible with a number of weapon types and firing modes. Including the ones that would be MOST useful in slowmo.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
2016's narrative was pretty simple and not original, but it was told in an efficient way which delivered some nice themes about corporate hubris without drowning the player in lore and made for a good atmosphere, something that's lost in Eternal where there's a lot more dialogue to deliver uninteresting exposition or hype up the Slayer. The Doom Slayer's complete silence and occasional emoting through body language also made him a more intimidating and compelling figure than some dumbass who yells "rip and tear" because haha le meme please notice me Reddit.
Of course, DOOM isn't Dark Souls, it doesn't have to cultivate a dark sci-fi atmosphere and it can just be about killing demons while listening to metal, but then why does Eternal waste so much time explaining boring fantasy lore that's not even remotely metal ? It's trying to be a DOOM game, a meme compilation and apparently someone's YA novel all at the same time, which makes it feel... well, kinda cringe really.
pretty much God or something ? I kinda stopped paying attention to the details after a while.
Of course, DOOM isn't Dark Souls, it doesn't have to cultivate a dark sci-fi atmosphere and it can just be about killing demons while listening to metal, but then why does Eternal waste so much time explaining boring fantasy lore that's not even remotely metal ? It's trying to be a DOOM game, a meme compilation and apparently someone's YA novel all at the same time, which makes it feel... well, kinda cringe really.
And just like Hayden, this simple yet endearing little AI is revealed to be part of Eternal's generic fantasy story, in this case
pretty much God or something ? I kinda stopped paying attention to the details after a while.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
Tangentially, while the answer has already been given above, I'm now curious which Vega you're referring to.
The "most notable gaming Vega" I thought of were the ones from Street Fighter. Either the claw guy who was named Balrog in Japan, or the Shadaloo dictator named M. Bison in English.
I would be kind of cool with some of those things separately though.
I'm generally in the camp that just about anything could work as an RPG, and want everything to be an RPG, so like... I would totally be down with a Doom RPG. Probably not playing as DoomGuy though.