Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

In general, I have to ask: why would South America be in especially bad shape? Lind's book mainly focuses on the US, so far the worldbuilding in the quest has focused on Eurasia and North America, and together we're shown a situation where the (in the real world) weak great power that is Russia somehow takes advantage of disease, right-wing terrorism and economic crisis to destroy its greatest Geo-strategic rivals and install itself as biggest clown on the hill. But Alexander's enlarged Russian empire couldn't even feed itself, so for Russia to try and destroy everyone makes no sense. The allies we know Alexander has are not food exporters. Russia historically has strong links with various food/raw material exporters in South America (the Argentines while under the Junta were the Soviet's best business partners despite hating each-other's ideologies and belonging to opposing alliances - still the Junta didn't aggravate the Soviet foreign ministers like Castro did and they could supply much desired beef, wheat and wool - what's a little thing like ideological hatred next to that?) and let's remember that there are plenty of people of all political stripes in South America who would welcome the US not being able to intervene in their internal affairs.

Russia needs a functioning world system to trade with somewhere and the troubles of North America, China and Europe will mean that Alexander will have little leeway to see even more states collapse. Whatever searing injustices Alexander has inflicted on South America (and Africa and South Asia) the needs of Russia likely means that Alexander would try to act as a stabilizing influence. He may fail and make unholy messes akin to the US attempt to stabilize Afghanistan in this century. But there's no way Russia can maintain itself as the greatest power in the world for 40 years if it is wrecking things for everyone, everywhere.

So personally I would expect South America to be a continent that was relatively comfortable in the outer orbit of Russia. Engaging with India, Japan and the recovering Europe and China to make sure they aren't too dependent on Russia. Some states might have gone through periods of extreme weakness and violence during the collapse, but I expect such events would be more on par with what happened to France in this world than what happened to the US or UK.

I don't think Chile would be especially important or powerful, except for its copper reserves. Its GDP and demographic trajectory just aren't on the path to becoming a power. Venezuela and Colombia are likely to be especially badly impacted by drought and destructive ripples from the collapse of the USA. A Mexican revivalist regime could potentially be a major power, but equally Mexico is too close to the US, so the collapse of the US could still be inflicting damage that would keep a Mexican revivalist regime too distracted and off-balance and damaged by waves of US refugees and bandits to be important. Places like Cuba, Peru, Bolivia etc are like Chile - simply not on a trajectory towards being major powers though by this point any of the medium-weight countries of South America could have overtaken the countries of Western Europe if conditions were sufficiently favourable.

I think the two countries that are most likely to be major powers in the 2070s are Argentina and Brazil. A well managed Brazil could be a power on par with Alexander's Russia and India and even a Brazil that has had a very troubled half-century since 2020 is still likely to be one of THE big powers. (I am assuming that the one thing that could stop Brazil, a magir ecosystem collapse of Amazonia, is avoided.) Argentina enjoys a number of demographic, political and geographical advantages that I think would allow it to perform relatively well in this scenario. I think some of the modern strains of Peronism would be an advantage in the crazy world Lind dreamed up. Argentina has a good chance of being the second strongest power on the continent by some way.

Of course, an alliance of smaller countries could be quite powerful. Just as the EU is still a big player in this quest's world, an economic/military alliance of some combination of the "medium weight" South American countries could be as important as Brazil.

__________________________________________________________

Theyve probably recovered the Malvinas.

Recovered... Listen, I know our history confuses outsiders but that's a really loaded term in these parts with some seriously un-good implications.

May I recommend using a word like "taken" instead?

fasquardon
 
In general, I have to ask: why would South America be in especially bad shape? Lind's book mainly focuses on the US, so far the worldbuilding in the quest has focused on Eurasia and North America, and together we're shown a situation where the (in the real world) weak great power that is Russia somehow takes advantage of disease, right-wing terrorism and economic crisis to destroy its greatest Geo-strategic rivals and install itself as biggest clown on the hill. But Alexander's enlarged Russian empire couldn't even feed itself, so for Russia to try and destroy everyone makes no sense. The allies we know Alexander has are not food exporters. Russia historically has strong links with various food/raw material exporters in South America (the Argentines while under the Junta were the Soviet's best business partners despite hating each-other's ideologies and belonging to opposing alliances - still the Junta didn't aggravate the Soviet foreign ministers like Castro did and they could supply much desired beef, wheat and wool - what's a little thing like ideological hatred next to that?) and let's remember that there are plenty of people of all political stripes in South America who would welcome the US not being able to intervene in their internal affairs.

Russia needs a functioning world system to trade with somewhere and the troubles of North America, China and Europe will mean that Alexander will have little leeway to see even more states collapse. Whatever searing injustices Alexander has inflicted on South America (and Africa and South Asia) the needs of Russia likely means that Alexander would try to act as a stabilizing influence. He may fail and make unholy messes akin to the US attempt to stabilize Afghanistan in this century. But there's no way Russia can maintain itself as the greatest power in the world for 40 years if it is wrecking things for everyone, everywhere.

My reasons are as follows
1. Canonically international trade collapse to the point that Victoria's slave selling is (wrongly) credited as destroying it. And significant portions of SA (and everywhere else) are reliant on such.
2. As a result of 1, that means that Russia's initial rise was in a low-international trade environment.
3. He is ideologically bent on a focus on wrecking people, while he can't wreck everyone, I find them idea of him devoting resources to stabilization to be unlikely.
3. None of the write-up require Russia wrecking everything. It was all internal.
4. SA later rise is predicated on US not messing them up. Notable, in 2/3 of the write ups, the nations are on the upswing. (Brazil, and Chile never really collapse). Only one country has a full "US" type situation.
5. @dptullos suggestions are interesting. Full of specific history and different collapse responses which just makes them superior.

Edit:
6: The speculation of Russia having an Argentina ally/puppet (for oil control) and Brazil blaming Russia for domestic unrest creates a nice rivalry dynamic as the two can jockey for control of the rest of the continent.
 
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Didn't stop him from messing with France and Britain, both with thermonuclear arsenals. If Brazil survived, that was because of the Amazon, not because of their nuclear weapons.
Oh sure.
But there's a difference between messing with the internal politics of a nation state covertly.
And sending a fleet to go park itself off the coastline of a nuclear armed state in order to make demands, like some people have suggested upthread.

Probably. If they did, it was out of desparation of no aid forthcoming from the UK and Germany+Others being busy elsewhere. And if that happened, expect some swaps of land and claims with EU mediation. (See: French Guiana above). The most the UK has done, other than the afroementioned foreign debt fuckery is really to continue to repeat "The Falklanders want to stay British." The MERCOSUR can do a lot, but there are also limits to how hobbled the EU can be without Alex being able to just overrun them.
Falklands/the Malvinas Islands have a total population of about 3000 people, 1000 of which are UK military.
Fishing and sheep farming is most of their economy. When the UK collapses in this timeline, either Argentina steps in, or foreign fishing fleets devastate their fisheries the same way it happened to Somalia.

The interesting thing here is that the Netherlands seem to have come through the Collapse just as well as Germany.
Which means that the Dutch Caribbean is still Dutch and EU, with around 400,000 Dutch citizens.
That's probably where the French Carribean islands(800k) hooked into when France's problems began.

I see your point about Tsar Alexander not wanting to destabilize Brazil, but I can see Brazil managing to destabilize just fine on its own.

I think that everything you are proposing should be entirely possible if South American countries make good choices and work together. In the environment of the Collapse, though, people are scared and vulnerable to strongmen with easy answers. Even without Russian help, there will be people who rise to exploit that vulnerability.
Disclaimer: Im not Brazilian or South American, and I have no local knowledge.

There are distinct internal tensions in Brazilian society, like most places.
But I do not see the internal fracture lines that would make Brazil destabilize on its own, and its sufficiently removed from other places not to get caught in the splash of the destabilizing US and Canada.

And in the absence of that someone deliberately exacerbating tensions, Brazil is sufficiently resourced to ride out the Collapse just fine; food exporter, local petroleum, local manufacturing capacity.
So is Argentina.

Colombia has all their advantages, but a longstanding drug cartel and civil war problem, so that's iffier.
Even though I suspect the Collapse is going to cripple the drug cartels with the obliteration of their largest market and the global financial system that enables money-laundering.

Doesnt require great statesmanship for them to survive the Collapse, just mediocre ones.
And the regional mechanisms already exist for them to use.
Ultimately, Brazil has about half the population of South America. If it has significant internal strife, the ripples will fuck the rest of the region up.

In general, I have to ask: why would South America be in especially bad shape?
This.
Central America acts as a buffer for any land effects between North America and South America.
And refugees from North America have to come by sea or air; they can't just walk there.

Barring disease outbreak, I actually expect South America to make it out of the Collapse better than Africa, at least initially.
Even if Africa has way more headroom to grow.
I don't think Chile would be especially important or powerful, except for its copper reserves.
Agreed.

18 million people is not really enough of a human resource base to matter; Peru by comparison is 30 million, Argentina is 44 million, Colombia is 50 million, and Brazil is 210 million. It has good fundamentals, and is US-friendly, so I expect a significant population of emigres to end up there.
But as a mover in South America? Unlikely.

Venezuela and Colombia are likely to be especially badly impacted by drought and destructive ripples from the collapse of the USA.
Venezuela(28 million) has been mismanaged recently, but its basic fundamentals are strong, and those 300 billion barrels of known petroleum reserves remain valuable even if everyone goes electric, and they start being used for petrochemicals instead. In the meantime, the spike in world oil prices that Russia creates will provide enough funds to stabilize the state.

Colombia(50 million) actually has the advantage of having experience of operating under internal stresses. They've been operating under the simultaneous strains of an ongoing drug war and internal rebellions funded by drug revenue for decades.

Without the demands of US foreign policy dictating how they prosecute the drug war, and the Collapse simultaneously cutting the legs from under the international drug trade by both strangling their markets and destroying much of the billions of dollars of revenue laundered into the global finance system, they might actually be able to solve their drug cartel problem.

Recovered... Listen, I know our history confuses outsiders but that's a really loaded term in these parts with some seriously un-good implications.
May I recommend using a word like "taken" instead?
fasquardon
My apologies.
No offence meant.
 
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Venezuela(28 million) has been mismanaged recently, but its basic fundamentals are strong, and those 300 billion barrels of known petroleum reserves remain valuable even if everyone goes electric, and they start being used for petrochemicals instead. In the meantime, the spike in world oil prices that Russia creates will provide enough funds to stabilize the state.

Not really. Recurrent droughts have wrecked the hydropower potential of the country, making it extremely difficult to maintain a modern economy there. Add in deep political divisions which go back WAY before the current government and the impact the US collapse is going to have on a country who is on the Caribbean and who is one of the most important oil producers is going to be nasty.

Venezuela can play its hand well, but they have a really bad hand in this future.

Colombia is going to have similar issues. And the droughts in the Amazon are also going to cause serious problems for Brazil.

My reasons are as follows
1. Canonically international trade collapse to the point that Victoria's slave selling is (wrongly) credited as destroying it. And significant portions of SA (and everywhere else) are reliant on such.
2. As a result of 1, that means that Russia's initial rise was in a low-international trade environment.
3. He is ideologically bent on a focus on wrecking people, while he can't wreck everyone, I find them idea of him devoting resources to stabilization to be unlikely.
3. None of the write-up require Russia wrecking everything. It was all internal.
4. SA later rise is predicated on US not messing them up. Notable, in 2/3 of the write ups, the nations are on the upswing. (Brazil, and Chile never really collapse). Only one country has a full "US" type situation.
5. @dptullos suggestions are interesting. Full of specific history and different collapse responses which just makes them superior.

Edit:
6: The speculation of Russia having an Argentina ally/puppet (for oil control) and Brazil blaming Russia for domestic unrest creates a nice rivalry dynamic as the two can jockey for control of the rest of the continent.

dptullos's suggestions ARE interesting.

But remember: Russia can't feed itself. The trade environment drops too low, Russians (well, mostly their recently "re-united" Central Asian citizens I'll bet) die by the millions and perhaps more concerning for Alexander, the trade that brings in the resources and technological imports he needs to maintain Russian industrial and military power will dry up.

Even assuming that Russia has had a very successful push for autarky before the collapse there's only so far that can go. I get that crapsack worlds can be fun to think about, but the already established facts about the world place limits on just how far into the crapsack things can go before we are as out of touch with reality as Lind.

My apologies.
No offence meant.

I appreciate it. Generally when I hear someone use that word, they're about to explicitly or implicitly advocate genocide-by-helicopter.

fasquardon
 
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dptullos's suggestions ARE interesting.

But remember: Russia can't feed itself. The trade environment drops too low, Russians (well, mostly their recently "re-united" Central Asian citizens I'll bet) die by the millions and perhaps more concerning for Alexander, the trade that brings in the resources and technological imports he needs to maintain Russian industrial and military power will dry up.

Even assuming that Russia has had a very successful push for autarky before the collapse there's only so far that can go. I get that crapsack worlds can be fun to think about, but the already established facts about the world place limits on just how far into the crapsack things can go before we are as out of touch with reality as Lind.

Russia doesn't need high tech, developed nations to import food. I'm not sure why Russia needing natural resources in any way means then need to let nations developed beyond resource extraction/farming to higher-income services. And again, 2/3 of his countries are functioning well, and Bolivia is the specific case of disaster to contrast Brazil, which hurt in the collapse and recovered, and has to have a narrative for that, and Chile, which made it through. Again, none of the suggestions are significantly based in Russia working to destabilize. Just that, while working to undermine their rivals, they don't exactly have time to also rescue some.

And again, the suggestions aren't a broken SA, but one that recognizes that the world is super connected, and the collapse will be hell everywhere, while still leaving room for rebuilding.
 
Not really. Recurrent droughts have wrecked the hydropower potential of the country, making it extremely difficult to maintain a modern economy there. Add in deep political divisions which go back WAY before the current government and the impact the US collapse is going to have on a country who is on the Caribbean and who is one of the most important oil producers is going to be nasty.

Venezuela can play its hand well, but they have a really bad hand in this future.
Colombia is going to have similar issues. And the droughts in the Amazon are also going to cause serious problems for Brazil.
WoG mandates the climate situation is no worse than it currently is IRL, which kinda hardcaps precisely how much climate disruption would be looking at in both Colombia and Venezuela. Coupled with actually improved greentech, from renewable energy generation to genengineered croplands to generally better practices, I dont think that should be an issue in the current-day AU.

I don't know enough about the Amazon issues specifically to comment. A quick Google suggests deforestation is exacerbating drought cycles there in a positive feedback loop, but I'd have to do more reading to be comfortable making pronouncements.

Venezuela? Im aware of the politics, but only in a general outsider way. Cant speak to any indepth knowledge.
I know one dam produces like 60% of their electric power. Supplementation by mass deployment of solar should fix that. And they should be able to afford it since they should be making a killing off oil.

What Russia did to the Middle East and North America knocked about 40% of the worlds oil production offline.
That leaves Venezuela well placed to benefit from Russia putting the screws to the rest of the world, at least until they make the transition away from fossil fuels as an energy source.
dptullos's suggestions ARE interesting.

But remember: Russia can't feed itself. The trade environment drops too low, Russians (well, mostly their recently "re-united" Central Asian citizens I'll bet) die by the millions and perhaps more concerning for Alexander, the trade that brings in the resources and technological imports he needs to maintain Russian industrial and military power will dry up.

Even assuming that Russia has had a very successful push for autarky before the collapse there's only so far that can go. I get that crapsack worlds can be fun to think about, but the already established facts about the world place limits on just how far into the crapsack things can go before we are as out of touch with reality as Lind.
*crosschecks*
Yeah, Russia is a wheat exporter, but it imports food. But Ukraine is a significant food exporter as well.
Dunno if it would be enough after gobbling down the Central Asian republics.

I appreciate it. Generally when I hear someone use that word, they're about to explicitly or implicitly advocate genocide-by-helicopter.
fasquardon
Oh wow. That's appalling.
 
The Argentine claim to the Falkland Islands is... complicated. Not what I'd call clear-cut, really. There are arguments in favor of it, but also arguments conflicting, as I see it. To the kind of mind where Argentine possession of the islands is so obvious that an Argentine capture would be called "recovery," so plainly and simply, it is perhaps unsurprising that they would in other ways be an Argentine ultra-nationalist.
 
I don't believe advocating is the correct term, I mean the current government denounces and repudiates the military junta, but they still claim the Falklands/Malvinas. A majority of argentines, believe the islands are argentine and were argentine and that they should be under argentine control.
 
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Russia doesn't need high tech, developed nations to import food.

A (for the 2070s) modern farm probably doesn't need a whole lot of tech - a simple generator of some kind (probably solar) and a computer to help manage the complexities of managing what's effectively a human-controlled ecosystem of edible things. A more old-style industrial farm certainly DOES need high tech. But the real tech requirement here is for the infrastructure to get the food to Russia.

Also, for the food exporters of South America to remain stable, yet more high tech is needed.

And more than that, I think Russia will need more than only food imports. Russia is going to need to import technology (because all modern countries depend on infrastructure so big that it has to extend across many countries, even the US and the Soviet Union were dependent on technology imports to be superpowers), and very likely raw materials (because developing mines and railroads and whole cities in the far depths of Siberia is expensive, and Alexander needs resources to afford crazy things like backing Victoria and invading Saudi Arabia).

And again, the suggestions aren't a broken SA, but one that recognizes that the world is super connected, and the collapse will be hell everywhere, while still leaving room for rebuilding.

And SA having a tough collapse is inevitable, but if it is too tough then there won't be enough of a world system left for Russia to avoid collapse as well.

It is already incredible that Alexander has brought Russia through the collapse in relatively good shape. Borderline miraculous even. We're talking about a country that in the here-and-now is still reeling from the damage of WW2, from Stalin's collectivization and the collapse of the Soviet Union. There's only so much of Lind's fantasies that we can plausibly blame on "a Russia did it" because a Russia can only do so much.

WoG mandates the climate situation is no worse than it currently is IRL

Right, and right now IRL Venezuela gets struck by a massive drought that shuts the whole country down every couple of years.

Not a good place to be when the market for Venezuelan oil goods "poof" (most is imported by the US - refineries elsewhere on the planet would take years to be able to re-tool to take on Venezuelan crude instead of whatever they were tooled for when the US went bye-bye) and the Caribbean is getting swamped by refugees and pirates.

What Russia did to the Middle East and North America knocked about 40% of the worlds oil production offline.
That leaves Venezuela well placed to benefit from Russia putting the screws to the rest of the world, at least until they make the transition away from fossil fuels as an energy source.

Venezuela exports most of its oil to the US (around 40%) around 20% goes to China, 20% to India. Of its exports only 1 barrel in 8 is refined locally. That means that after the US and China collapse, the only place actually set up to refine serious amounts of Venezuelan crude is India. All crude is not the same, and it takes alot of time, money and effort to re-tool a refinery set up for a different kind of crude. It takes even more time money and effort to build new refineries. My bet is that Venezuela's oil sector collapses after the US falls. Losing that much business at the same time as a country of more than 300 million people descends into nuking itself and genociding itself right next door is a pretty adverse business scenario, so by the time refineries are re-tooled.

I am a bit of an optimist about how durable states are and to what degree a population could bounce back from the sort of economic collapse that followed the collapse of the USA, but I think Venezuela and its neighbourhood are going to have so many demands on their organizational resources that the area isn't going to recover consequence free.

*crosschecks*
Yeah, Russia is a wheat exporter, but it imports food. But Ukraine is a significant food exporter as well.
Dunno if it would be enough after gobbling down the Central Asian republics.

Yeah, Russia in its 2020 borders is a food exporter (it could probably be barely self-sufficient inside those borders if they stopped producing wheat for export and switched land to producing other sorts of crops, though it would also involve fixing the horrific state of Russian agriculture which hasn't really improved since Soviet times and also Russians would have to seriously cut their meat intake).

However, Alexander re-conquered most of the old Soviet Union right? Central Asia is a massive food importer. Maybe Alexander went in there with the intent to commit genocide. Or maybe he doesn't care one way or the other, but conquering an area only to stave most of the people there to death is the sort of economic waste that would make it pretty unlikely Russia survived as a great power to 2070 - and since Russia is only just starting to lose its grip in the quest, probably Alexander had more practical policies.

I don't believe advocating is the correct term, I mean the current government denounces and repudiates the military junta, but they still claim the Falklands/Malvinas. A majority of argentines, believe the islands are argentine and were argentine and that they should be under argentine control.

Most Argentines I've talked to who use the word "recover" want us to "conveniently disappear" and some will go so far as to add the "Junta was good with helicopters" type dog whistles that make me think that "advocating" is at least the most correct term I can use in polite company.

I've met a handful of the neighbours who want us to be an independent country, and a large majority who think the Falklands should become Argentine. The less genocidal of that majority will tend to use phrases like "The Malvinas ARE Argentine" (often followed by "and you are Argentine too") or "The Malvinas SHOULD BE Argentine" (often followed by "and you should too") - in contrast people who use "recover" have so far talked like I am less human than they are.

Falklands/the Malvinas Islands have a total population of about 3000 people, 1000 of which are UK military.

Ah, no. It's about 3.5 thousand civilian population, the number of UK military personnel and the civilian contractors that support them are not counted in local economic and demographic statistics. Nor does it count seasonal labour, like shearers who these days live a globe-trotting nomadic life.

Fishing and sheep farming is most of their economy. When the UK collapses in this timeline, either Argentina steps in, or foreign fishing fleets devastate their fisheries the same way it happened to Somalia.

Fishing and tourism are the main industries. Sheep farming is a distant third. And the islands have their own coast guard/fishery patrol force which can handle big trawlers just fine. And the Falklands are a long way out in some very rough seas, so small fishing boats can't come. I suspect that tourism would suffer badly during the collapse, the wool industry it is hard to say - probably it depends on what exactly happens in Australia, the fishing industry would be a mixed bag I think. It seems safe to say that Spain would be importing less squid, but depending on exactly what is happening in Japan, Korea, Thailand and the Philippines, the industry could have either done alright or collapsed.

So really the biggest question is what does Argentina allow?

fasquardon
 
Most Argentines I've talked to who use the word "recover" want us to "conveniently disappear" and some will go so far as to add the "Junta was good with helicopters" type dog whistles that make me think that "advocating" is at least the most correct term I can use in polite company.

I've met a handful of the neighbours who want us to be an independent country, and a large majority who think the Falklands should become Argentine. The less genocidal of that majority will tend to use phrases like "The Malvinas ARE Argentine" (often followed by "and you are Argentine too") or "The Malvinas SHOULD BE Argentine" (often followed by "and you should too") - in contrast people who use "recover" have so far talked like I am less human than they are.

fasquardon
Yeah, i've met people like that sadly. They don't understand that no one who actually lives on the islands wants to be part of the dumpster fire that is Argentina currently. To be honest though, the government really pushes that the Falklands/Malvinas are argentine all the time. Almost all argentines have been taught all their lives that the islands are rightfully theirs, you can still see signs and statues everywhere. Plus its easy to milk the issue for political points. It also doesn't help that Argentina is as salty about the islands as Bolivia is about its sea access.
 
A (for the 2070s) modern farm probably doesn't need a whole lot of tech - a simple generator of some kind (probably solar) and a computer to help manage the complexities of managing what's effectively a human-controlled ecosystem of edible things. A more old-style industrial farm certainly DOES need high tech. But the real tech requirement here is for the infrastructure to get the food to Russia.

Also, for the food exporters of South America to remain stable, yet more high tech is needed.
Yeah.

It's relatively easy to let a country destabilize and still be able to extract mineral resources, things like oil or coltan. All you need is a tough mercenary force to guard the extraction sites, roads or railroads connecting the extraction sites to the port, and keeping up the extraction even when the rest of the country is in chaos becomes at least sustainable.

But food? To make a country capable of exporting food means you need a lot more infrastructure, spread out widely, because there's no way to concentrate an entire country's worth of food production into a single small region. You need lots of little towns to support basic economic activity so that the farm machinery runs and the farmers themselves can live some semblance of a normal life. You need a nationwide grid of roads or railways, stretching out to encompass the entire farming region like capillaries in a lung.

Sustaining all this, on a level capable of reliably exporting large amounts of food at a cost-effective price, takes stable government and a reasonable level of technological competency on the part of the population.

It is already incredible that Alexander has brought Russia through the collapse in relatively good shape. Borderline miraculous even. We're talking about a country that in the here-and-now is still reeling from the damage of WW2, from Stalin's collectivization and the collapse of the Soviet Union. There's only so much of Lind's fantasies that we can plausibly blame on "a Russia did it" because a Russia can only do so much.
Yeah, this. Alexander IV didn't engineer the Collapse, after all. He just weathered it in his own country somehow, and selectively made it much worse for carefully chosen others.

But the Collapse itself, even discounting Alexander's meddling, and certainly when combined with the ripple effects of Alexander's actions on countries Alexander wasn't directly targeting, are more than enough to cripple nations by themselves.

I am a bit of an optimist about how durable states are and to what degree a population could bounce back from the sort of economic collapse that followed the collapse of the USA, but I think Venezuela and its neighbourhood are going to have so many demands on their organizational resources that the area isn't going to recover consequence free.
Especially not starting out, canonically, with either Maduro or someone like him probably in charge. Venezuela just isn't that well organized or led.

As we've learned recently with coronavirus, a government with just the minimal competence required to remain in power tends to perform very poorly when a sudden external crisis blows up. For Venezuela to even survive as a coherent state in a crisis this big, you'd need multiple layers of things to go right. First you'd need someone who knew what they were doing to take over from whoever was in charge at the point of departure, then they'd need to have enough legitimacy to unite the country, then they'd need to be able to stay in charge despite doing various things that would offend various factions while making sure the country survived the crisis.

That's too many layers of "needs" for Venezuela to have good odds under the circumstances.

This might actually frustrate Alexander, or he might take the opportunity to more or less seize control of the oil reserves (under the patterns outlined above) while otherwise letting the country rot around his chosen oil company as a bunch of squabbling warlords. Control of global oil resources, and the ability to open that tap up or close it down to promote desired behavior, is clearly a significant chunk of Alexander's overall geostrategic game plan. And with Venezuela collapsing into chaos in the 2020s and '30s, and with the US and EU in no shape to oppose his machinations, Alexander could plausibly integrate Venezuela into his web.

Yeah, Russia in its 2020 borders is a food exporter (it could probably be barely self-sufficient inside those borders if they stopped producing wheat for export and switched land to producing other sorts of crops, though it would also involve fixing the horrific state of Russian agriculture which hasn't really improved since Soviet times and also Russians would have to seriously cut their meat intake).

However, Alexander re-conquered most of the old Soviet Union right? Central Asia is a massive food importer. Maybe Alexander went in there with the intent to commit genocide. Or maybe he doesn't care one way or the other, but conquering an area only to stave most of the people there to death is the sort of economic waste that would make it pretty unlikely Russia survived as a great power to 2070 - and since Russia is only just starting to lose its grip in the quest, probably Alexander had more practical policies.
Also, since Alexander wants Russia to be a high-tech nation, and wants to preserve plenty of support at home, he can't exactly afford to have famine be a plausible threat to Russia. Keeping intact some places capable of reliably exporting food to him would seem important under those conditions.

Most Argentines I've talked to who use the word "recover" want us to "conveniently disappear" and some will go so far as to add the "Junta was good with helicopters" type dog whistles that make me think that "advocating" is at least the most correct term I can use in polite company.
Ah. No wonder that hits close to home. Especially since it sounds like you are a member of the 'us' in question.
 
Right, and right now IRL Venezuela gets struck by a massive drought that shuts the whole country down every couple of years.

Not a good place to be when the market for Venezuelan oil goods "poof" (most is imported by the US - refineries elsewhere on the planet would take years to be able to re-tool to take on Venezuelan crude instead of whatever they were tooled for when the US went bye-bye) and the Caribbean is getting swamped by refugees and pirates.
-Yes it is. But its an El Nino weather phenomenon thing, as I understand it. This suggests periodic droughts are a thing, and go
The rest of their power problems seem to be largely mismanagement; they have not added new generating capacity as the country's appetite for power has grown, nor have they maintained the current network very well.

-The US, Mexico and Canada all collapsed, removing a significant chunk of production from the market, and correspondingly making the remaining producers much more important. Furthermore, the Middle East followed them. The speed at which the remaining economies will retool for different oil sources is very different when its literally a national priority.

The market for Venezuelan oil goods will probably boom, for at least a couple decades. After the 2050s, it probably starts to decline as its no longer required as a fossil fuel but only as substrate for petrochemicals.

-Piracy is not really a consideration. Requires trade to prey upon, and the Collapse took a hammer to that. You can't exactly steal an oil tanker with anything short of nationstate tools, especially if they start putting security teams on the damn things. A couple remote weapon stations and it stops being viable. Not to mention what happens if a tanker runs into your boat; we've seen them sink warships and come off with only scratched paint.

Not to mention the possibility of reprisal raids now that international norms have broken down.
Because if you think the Poles or Chinese or Russians, for instance, wont send a couple teams of GROM or Dragon Commando or Spetsnaz to burn your pirate port city to the ground....

Venezuela exports most of its oil to the US (around 40%) around 20% goes to China, 20% to India. Of its exports only 1 barrel in 8 is refined locally. That means that after the US and China collapse, the only place actually set up to refine serious amounts of Venezuelan crude is India. All crude is not the same, and it takes alot of time, money and effort to re-tool a refinery set up for a different kind of crude. It takes even more time money and effort to build new refineries. My bet is that Venezuela's oil sector collapses after the US falls. Losing that much business at the same time as a country of more than 300 million people descends into nuking itself and genociding itself right next door is a pretty adverse business scenario, so by the time refineries are re-tooled.

I am a bit of an optimist about how durable states are and to what degree a population could bounce back from the sort of economic collapse that followed the collapse of the USA, but I think Venezuela and its neighbourhood are going to have so many demands on their organizational resources that the area isn't going to recover consequence free.
There's an almost ten year interregnum between the collapse of the United States as a political entity and the fall of the Chinese Communist Party govt and the PRC. That was more than enough time for pretty much everyone to retool and diversify as the ME got more unstable. For example, Japan gets the vast bulk of it's oil(>90%) from the Middle East IRL, and Daddy Alexander is about to drop on the Arabs like a hammer.

Furthermore, I will point out that China splintered into multiple competing factions, it did not collapse the way the US did.
The destruction of its ability to act with any sort of coherent focus beyond its borders for ten or twenty years did not actually translate to their de-industrializing.

Yeah, Russia in its 2020 borders is a food exporter (it could probably be barely self-sufficient inside those borders if they stopped producing wheat for export and switched land to producing other sorts of crops, though it would also involve fixing the horrific state of Russian agriculture which hasn't really improved since Soviet times and also Russians would have to seriously cut their meat intake).

However, Alexander re-conquered most of the old Soviet Union right? Central Asia is a massive food importer. Maybe Alexander went in there with the intent to commit genocide. Or maybe he doesn't care one way or the other, but conquering an area only to stave most of the people there to death is the sort of economic waste that would make it pretty unlikely Russia survived as a great power to 2070 - and since Russia is only just starting to lose its grip in the quest, probably Alexander had more practical policies.
Can't afford genocide, I don't think.
Even today, a fair amount of the Russian economy is Central Asian emigres.
Ah, no. It's about 3.5 thousand civilian population, the number of UK military personnel and the civilian contractors that support them are not counted in local economic and demographic statistics. Nor does it count seasonal labour, like shearers who these days live a globe-trotting nomadic life.
Nyet. 2012 Falklands census
The Falkland Islands Government published the first results from the 2012 Census today.

The normal resident population of the Falkland Islands on census day (15 April 2012) was 2,841.
This was a decrease of 4 per cent since 2006, a decline entirely attributable to the decrease in the number of civilian contractors at Mount Pleasant Airfield (MPA). As non-residents, military personnel are not included in the census.

Excluding contractors at MPA, the true population figure of the Falkland Islands is 2,563 – indicating that the population has remained static since 2006.

Stanley is home to 2121 people, 75 per cent of the population, an increase of less than 1 per cent since 2006. The population in Camp (areas outside of Stanley) has declined by 3.3 per cent to 351 people. The census shows that 59 per cent of residents consider their national identity to be 'Falkland Islander'. 29 per cent consider themselves British; 9.8 per cent St Helenian, and 5.4 per cent Chilean.
2013 Guardian article gives a more detailed demographic breakdown:
www.theguardian.com

The Falkland Islands: everything you ever wanted to know in data and charts

The Falkland Islands are in the news again - but what do we really know about the territory the Argentinians call the Islas Malvinas? This is the key data

TLDR
~2500 permanent residents (Under-15 16.5%. Over-65 10.7%)
~400 foreign contractors
~1300 military troops.
Fishing and tourism are the main industries. Sheep farming is a distant third. And the islands have their own coast guard/fishery patrol force which can handle big trawlers just fine. And the Falklands are a long way out in some very rough seas, so small fishing boats can't come. I suspect that tourism would suffer badly during the collapse, the wool industry it is hard to say - probably it depends on what exactly happens in Australia, the fishing industry would be a mixed bag I think. It seems safe to say that Spain would be importing less squid, but depending on exactly what is happening in Japan, Korea, Thailand and the Philippines, the industry could have either done alright or collapsed.

So really the biggest question is what does Argentina allow?

fasquardon
Looking at the website, they have one armed fisheries vessel, and some aircraft. And a Royal Navy backstop.

In the absence of actual military backup, what are they going to do against a Japanese trawler fleet? Or an Indian or Chinese or Spanish one?
How are they going to man the fishery patrol out of 2500 people? Who's even going to pay for maintaining and operating said fishery patrol?
Post-Collapse, the going price for marine diesel and JP-8 is gonna go WAY up, let alone spare parts.

Im not really seeing any possibility of the Falklands being viable in a post-Collapse scenario in the absence of foreign intervention.
Argentinan takeover may well be more in the lines of a humanitarian intervention than an invasion.
And unlike the French overseas islands, the UK was not a member of the EU at the time either.
 
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-Yes it is. But its an El Nino weather phenomenon thing, as I understand it. This suggests periodic droughts are a thing, and go
The rest of their power problems seem to be largely mismanagement; they have not added new generating capacity as the country's appetite for power has grown, nor have they maintained the current network very well.
Yeah, but unfucking a badly mismanaged situation requires money and administrative competence.

Venezuela is going to be entering the Collapse without that.

As such, it is very likely that their problems will stay bad or get worse, not better, at first, but this creates a downward spiral because those problems are already so bad that Venezuela is in danger of becoming a failed state in real life.

-The US, Mexico and Canada all collapsed, removing a significant chunk of production from the market, and correspondingly making the remaining producers much more important. Furthermore, the Middle East followed them. The speed at which the remaining economies will retool for different oil sources is very different when its literally a national priority.
If oil extraction continues in Venezuela, it will likely be handled at heavily guarded, centralized facilities that act as foreign enclaves in what is functionally a failed state. See above.

Because the kind of foreign support that would prop up a collapsed government just isn't there in this period, not even for massive oil supplies. Don't think of "surely, the oil would mean the government doesn't collapse." Think of "the government collapsing cuts the oil supply, increasing fuel prices and further exacerbating the Collapse."

-Piracy is not really a consideration. Requires trade to prey upon, and the Collapse took a hammer to that. You can't exactly steal an oil tanker with anything short of nationstate tools, especially if they start putting security teams on the damn things. A couple remote weapon stations and it stops being viable. Not to mention what happens if a tanker runs into your boat; we've seen them sink warships and come off with only scratched paint.
Point of order: piracy doesn't require major seagoing trade to prey upon. Pirates can get along fairly well preying on coastal settlements, in a sufficiently collapsed society where local government loses the ability to conduct reprisals. Pirates and privateers hitting coastal settlements when an adequate supply of rich merchantmen were not available has been a Caribbean tradition since the late 16th century. See also the Barbary corsairs.

Eventually this pattern degenerates into a condition of maritime anarchy where, effectively, everyone is a pirate if and when they think they can get away with it. If only because it's the only way to get revenge on those other bastards who pirated your settlement the other week.

The main thing stopping this from happening would be if someone who still has a functional navy steps in to keep the sealane through the Panama Canal from collapsing. The thing is... if that happens in the 2030s or early 2040s, it's probably Russia doing it (and causing Europe and China to breathe a sigh of relief while they're at it!).

Which may explain how Russia established its presence there in the first place. In the wake of the US and Mexico collapsing, and the Northern Confederation ripping apart the "New American Confederacy" with the bombing of Atlanta, the entire Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico descend into anarchy. Russia steps in to establish its dominance in the region and secure access to key strategic points like the Venezuelan oil infrastructure and the Panama Canal, establishing its bona fides by actually legit suppressing piracy... once the piracy has done its job of breaking the local power centers.

Rumford's memoirs containing a chapter of pure fantasy about fighting neo-Aztec cannibal pirates is vaguely correlated with this action (perhaps the Russians used Victorian sepoys for a few things).

Because if you think the Poles or Chinese or Russians, for instance, wont send a couple teams of GROM or Dragon Commando or Spetsnaz to burn your pirate port city to the ground....
The Poles are busy, the Chinese are on the wrong side of an ocean unless the Panama Canal stays open and friendly, and the Russians doing it just leads us to the scenario I describe above.
 
Yeah, but unfucking a badly mismanaged situation requires money and administrative competence.
Venezuela is going to be entering the Collapse without that. As such, it is very likely that their problems will stay bad or get worse, not better, at first, but this creates a downward spiral because those problems are already so bad that Venezuela is in danger of becoming a failed state in real life.
I'm certainly not saying that it's going to be plain sailing for Venezuela; it's not for anyone.

I just believe that in a post-North America, post-Middle East situation, Venezuela will not be allowed to fall.
The price of subsidizing its survival will be cheap compared to other nations in the EU or PACS simply leaving their energy supply at Alexander's complete mercy. And it's not like technical advisers will be in short supply.

Might just end up in a situation where the country is playing one bidder off against another.
The one advantage being that the global financial system failing doesnt really leave much avenue for corrupt officials to offshore money, so the administration is stuck at home.

If oil extraction continues in Venezuela, it will likely be handled at heavily guarded, centralized facilities that act as foreign enclaves in what is functionally a failed state. See above.

Because the kind of foreign support that would prop up a collapsed government just isn't there in this period, not even for massive oil supplies. Don't think of "surely, the oil would mean the government doesn't collapse." Think of "the government collapsing cuts the oil supply, increasing fuel prices and further exacerbating the Collapse."
That....doesnt really work in my experience.
Take it from someone who lived in Nigeria during the worst of the militant problems in the Niger Delta, and still knows people there.

Something like coltan is a lowskill, low volume product that can be extracted with handtools and slave labor before being moved to wherever its refined; total world production has always been below 1000 metric tons yearly. Petroleum production is measured in the millions of barrels daily and a workforce in the tens or hundreds of thousands, with pipeline networks and port facilities and shit.

You can't handle mining and extraction of petroleum in enclaves.
You need a stablish country for any sort of sustained oil extraction, and the backing of the local military.

As for the rest, we'll have to disagree about the availability of foreign support.

Humanitarian support may have become scarce in the Collapse, but cold-blooded pragmatic calculation is unlikely to have vanished.
And nation states will need Venezuela to sell the oil enough to do the work, and its neighbors would prefer a stable enough state to prevent refugee inflows disrupting their own countries.

Thats my opinion, of course. You may not agree.

Point of order: piracy doesn't require major seagoing trade to prey upon. Pirates can get along fairly well preying on coastal settlements, in a sufficiently collapsed society where local government loses the ability to conduct reprisals. Pirates and privateers hitting coastal settlements when an adequate supply of rich merchantmen were not available has been a Caribbean tradition since the late 16th century. See also the Barbary corsairs.

Eventually this pattern degenerates into a condition of maritime anarchy where, effectively, everyone is a pirate if and when they think they can get away with it. If only because it's the only way to get revenge on those other bastards who pirated your settlement the other week.

The main thing stopping this from happening would be if someone who still has a functional navy steps in to keep the sealane through the Panama Canal from collapsing. The thing is... if that happens in the 2030s or early 2040s, it's probably Russia doing it (and causing Europe and China to breathe a sigh of relief while they're at it!).

Which may explain how Russia established its presence there in the first place. In the wake of the US and Mexico collapsing, and the Northern Confederation ripping apart the "New American Confederacy" with the bombing of Atlanta, the entire Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico descend into anarchy. Russia steps in to establish its dominance in the region and secure access to key strategic points like the Venezuelan oil infrastructure and the Panama Canal, establishing its bona fides by actually legit suppressing piracy... once the piracy has done its job of breaking the local power centers.

Rumford's memoirs containing a chapter of pure fantasy about fighting neo-Aztec cannibal pirates is vaguely correlated with this action (perhaps the Russians used Victorian sepoys for a few things).
-For one thing, you need a Somalia-style breakdown in national integrity for those sorts of situations to occur.

That sort of localized piracy, however, is not actually relevant to international trade.
Pirates fucking over coastal villages doesnt bother supertankers carrying oil to Asia; none of what they carry is fungible, and thus they are not a lucrative target. And AIS allows realtime tracking of ship positions by the owners.

The addition of security teams raises shipping costs, depending on whether they're private security or marine squads seconded from the military, but makes the risks of piracy prohibitive; remote weapon stations armed with LRAD-style loudspeakers and autocannon will warn off or murder any non-state threat armed with man-portable weapons when international convention shifts to allow international vessels to start arming themselves.

-Russia is a country of 150 million people and many near-region commitments. It invaded its near abroad, is sitting on the Middle East, and facing off the EU. And they've been careful to avoid putting a physical presence in places where it might crystallize local opposition against them.
I dont really see a situation where they can afford to establish significant military presence in Venezuela.

Panama is arguably pushing it as it is, even if the Russian presence is lowkey.

If there's a Russian presence in Venezuela at all, it's going to be a situation where they are buying influence with a local regime.
In competition with other players like, say, Germany/Poland, or India, or Japan.
In order to maintain some Russosphere-independent energy supply as they transition.

The Poles are busy, the Chinese are on the wrong side of an ocean unless the Panama Canal stays open and friendly, and the Russians doing it just leads us to the scenario I describe above.
The Colombians have a significant naval presence in the region, and then there's the Brazilians, both of whom do significant exports.
Even in the collapse of the US govt and USN, there's entirely too many interests in keeping that spot of water clear, and not enough holes to hide for piracy to be profitable.
 
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All right, y'all have convinced me that Venezuela is vital to non-Russosphere powers maintaining energy independence, and that oil extraction requires a fairly stable and viable state.

And, therefore, that it would have been a priority kill target, and fairly easy to render nonviable.
 
I didn't mean to suggest Bolivia would "dominate" Chile - although obviously if the latter's government collapsed while the former's remained intact it would give them a considerable advantage - but that the Collapse would convince Bolivia they had a chance in the first place.
I think they would attack on the grounds if not now when?
if the world ending is not the right time will be the people will wonder

edit: sees dptullos post :o YIKES that would do it
 
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All right, y'all have convinced me that Venezuela is vital to non-Russosphere powers maintaining energy independence, and that oil extraction requires a fairly stable and viable state.

And, therefore, that it would have been a priority kill target, and fairly easy to render nonviable.
I funny vote, because gallows humor, but this is exactly what I was getting at.

My own point being, it's quite possible that Venezuela would self-destruct before Alexander IV even shows up.

I'm certainly not saying that it's going to be plain sailing for Venezuela; it's not for anyone.

I just believe that in a post-North America, post-Middle East situation, Venezuela will not be allowed to fall.
The price of subsidizing its survival will be cheap compared to other nations in the EU or PACS simply leaving their energy supply at Alexander's complete mercy. And it's not like technical advisers will be in short supply.
As repeatedly pointed out, it is not a foregone conclusion that Venezuela will even survive to 2025 or 2030 as a coherent polity with a stable government in real life. Let alone under the even more painful conditions of the Collapse timeline with multiple global pandemics (COVID-19 called and is inviting its friends to party!) and worldwide financial shakeups impeding ability to even pay for oil.

It's entirely possible that Venezuela will simply flame out in this timeline, with the superpowers of the pre-Collapse period making efforts, weakening efforts, to keep it stable, only to simply fail and fall back on the 'solution' I've outlined of oil extraction guarded by the armies of a rump-state version of Venezuela... And then that falls apart under Russian sabotage or the Russians just hiring the warlords and mercenaries out from the borderline failed states of Europe and the increasingly distracted/divided state of China.

You have been, very consistently, GROSSLY overestimating the level of coherence of a lot of the major powers during the 2030s-2050s timeframe, in terms of their ability to project global power and influence. This isn't the first time, and we've had this conversation before.

That....doesnt really work in my experience.
Take it from someone who lived in Nigeria during the worst of the militant problems in the Niger Delta, and still knows people there.

Something like coltan is a lowskill, low volume product that can be extracted with handtools and slave labor before being moved to wherever its refined; total world production has always been below 1000 metric tons yearly. Petroleum production is measured in the millions of barrels daily and a workforce in the tens or hundreds of thousands, with pipeline networks and port facilities and shit.

You can't handle mining and extraction of petroleum in enclaves.
You need a stablish country for any sort of sustained oil extraction, and the backing of the local military.
Eh, fair. With that said, you need stability, but... only really in the immediate regions surrounding your extraction. If half the rest of the country dissolves into anarchy, you can still keep things running, as long as you have enough educated workers.

And if we're talking about the 2040s or so, the period after the EU is well and truly collapsed and China is fissioning... Well, one grim consequence of the Collapse is that there is a glut of educated people from certain countries who have suffered radical reductions in standard of living, or outright been reduced to refugees. Bringing in foreign workers to run your oil wells for you, in a country that can't run them alone, has never been more feasible.

You're not wrong about what you say as such, but it bears remembering that oil extraction in places like the Middle East was effectively parachuted in, into the middle of a literal wasteland with minimal population education and infrastructure, by Western oil companies. I don't mean to make this all 'white man's burden' bullshit because it's not, but oil companies are famous for bringing in very large numbers of foreign specialists to run complex systems in the middle of territories that simply do not have the capacity to duplicate and maintain those systems themselves.

-For one thing, you need a Somalia-style breakdown in national integrity for those sorts of situations to occur.

That sort of localized piracy, however, is not actually relevant to international trade.
Pirates fucking over coastal villages doesnt bother supertankers carrying oil to Asia; none of what they carry is fungible, and thus they are not a lucrative target. And AIS allows realtime tracking of ship positions by the owners.
Pirates fucking over coastal villages doesn't matter to international trade as long as none of them have heavy weapons (in a world where everything goes to shit, nonstate actors' access to heavy weapons increases) and as long as none of them figure out viable ways to hold a ship hostage (in a world where Russia, at least, would be quite happy to provide its facilities to help everyone get away with it).
 
Barring disease outbreak, I actually expect South America to make it out of the Collapse better than Africa, at least initially.
Even if Africa has way more headroom to grow.
its canon that Lind's timeline had one or more global epidemics "Covid-19" meet my cousin Covid-25 "Covid-25".... bend over
Colombia(50 million) actually has the advantage of having experience of operating under internal stresses. They've been operating under the simultaneous strains of an ongoing drug war and internal rebellions funded by drug revenue for decades.

Without the demands of US foreign policy dictating how they prosecute the drug war, and the Collapse simultaneously cutting the legs from under the international drug trade by both strangling their markets and destroying much of the billions of dollars of revenue laundered into the global finance system, they might actually be able to solve their drug cartel problem.
I cant imagine the cartels going out peacefully to survive the government they would have to run(not sure how feasible that is) or become warlords
 
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As repeatedly pointed out, it is not a foregone conclusion that Venezuela will even survive to 2025 or 2030 as a coherent polity with a stable government in real life. Let alone under the even more painful conditions of the Collapse timeline with multiple global pandemics (COVID-19 called and is inviting its friends to party!) and worldwide financial shakeups impeding ability to even pay for oil.

It's entirely possible that Venezuela will simply flame out in this timeline, with the superpowers of the pre-Collapse period making efforts, weakening efforts, to keep it stable, only to simply fail and fall back on the 'solution' I've outlined of oil extraction guarded by the armies of a rump-state version of Venezuela... And then that falls apart under Russian sabotage or the Russians just hiring the warlords and mercenaries out from the borderline failed states of Europe and the increasingly distracted/divided state of China.

You have been, very consistently, GROSSLY overestimating the level of coherence of a lot of the major powers during the 2030s-2050s timeframe, in terms of their ability to project global power and influence. This isn't the first time, and we've had this conversation before.
-Neither Brazil nor Colombia are going to be able to afford a festering source of instability on their border in the Collapse. That's just self-interest.
Neither is traditionally interventionist outside their own borders, but watching Canada destabilize to a flood of refugees is the sort of thing that concentrates attention. Those same interests align with those of foreign govts for oil.

-I believe you are significantly underestimating the level of coherence of the remaining nationstates
Local preoccupation does not extend to ignoring existential threat.

The Nordic nations put together enough help to keep Finland alive and intact and a buffer. Poland bled to fend off the Russian Empire. FCNY is still receiving support for decades.The idea that Germany/the Netherlands/Belgium/the surviving 16-country, 200-400 million surviving members of the EU would simply throw up their hands and not try to secure alternative sources of fuel to mitigate Russian dominance is....unlikely.

Especially with Dutch and French territory right there in the Carribean with almost a million EU citizens. Probably all Dutch now, bc I assume the French Islands would have hooked up with them when mainland France started having those internal discussions.

Hell, the Russosphere is not composed of trusting buddies.
Japan has 99% of its oil use comes out of the Middle East, which Russia just crushed. India imported over 60% of it's oil from the Middle East. Even with Alex offering discounts, both have motive to tacitly diversify their own energy supply while they transition to renewables.

Its entirely possible that you're right and I'm wrong, of course. Plot shields drove much of this AU.
But the EU didn't just roll over and die.I dont expect them to roll over and die here. Or for South America to simply ignore everything else.

Still I dont dictate the rules of the scenario. Just throwing out my impressions.

Eh, fair. With that said, you need stability, but... only really in the immediate regions surrounding your extraction. If half the rest of the country dissolves into anarchy, you can still keep things running, as long as you have enough educated workers.

And if we're talking about the 2040s or so, the period after the EU is well and truly collapsed and China is fissioning... Well, one grim consequence of the Collapse is that there is a glut of educated people from certain countries who have suffered radical reductions in standard of living, or outright been reduced to refugees. Bringing in foreign workers to run your oil wells for you, in a country that can't run them alone, has never been more feasible.

You're not wrong about what you say as such, but it bears remembering that oil extraction in places like the Middle East was effectively parachuted in, into the middle of a literal wasteland with minimal population education and infrastructure, by Western oil companies. I don't mean to make this all 'white man's burden' bullshit because it's not, but oil companies are famous for bringing in very large numbers of foreign specialists to run complex systems in the middle of territories that simply do not have the capacity to duplicate and maintain those systems themselves.
-Quick couple maps of Venezuela:
You need to hold at least half the nation's surface area and three quarters of the population. Enclaves aint gonna work.
Not to mention there's the whole support requirement behind the workers who would actually be doing the work; food, water, drink, entertainment, electric power, maintenance, transport, et cetera.

Places like the Middle East were pretty minimally populated at the time, and they still required the willing acquiesence of the local government and population. Because extraction infrastructure is not really something a commercial enterprise can afford to guard if the locals dont want them there. You need nationstate level resources.


Pirates fucking over coastal villages doesn't matter to international trade as long as none of them have heavy weapons (in a world where everything goes to shit, nonstate actors' access to heavy weapons increases) and as long as none of them figure out viable ways to hold a ship hostage (in a world where Russia, at least, would be quite happy to provide its facilities to help everyone get away with it).
-The most you are going to get on a fishing boat or a speed boat are AKs, AGLs and RPGs. Manportable weapons.
Trying to get anything heavier requires a bigger, heavier more expensive boat, which starts being identifiably military, with the basing requirements thereof, which translates to a logistic footprint that can be identified and murdered.

Then you are approaching a bigger, heavier ship, with a stabler firing platform, and whose very mass, whose very wake, is a weapon.
Its a tanker weighing tens or hundreds of thousands of tonnes; even if successfully stolen, you can't hide it under palm leaves and shit, and you cant just park it in a shallow draft port.

Attempting to storm an armed ship with a security team aboard is unlikely to go well for the attackers either.
After all, the point is larceny, not war. An armed opponent is not a good larceny target, let alone one with autocannon and AGLs.

-I even have my doubts about the viability of coastal piracy. How long would, say, the Colombian navy would let any coastal raids go on before landing in one of the areas and torching everything that could be used to build a boat, and leaving? I know the antipiracy forces off Somalia are empowered to do this, and have indeed done it to suspected pirate boats under construction.

There's a reason why I think it requires total breakdown of local organization.
The Somali pirates didnt raid Kenya or Ethiopia or Eritrea or Djibouti, which retain central organization. Because even Third World governments can do bad things to your crime organization.

-Russia has, as far as I know, no naval bases in the area. Air basing in Panama (I think) but no naval bases.
And its navy is not that large anyway; its a land power, not a sea power. There's no South Atlantic/Carribean Fleet.
That's why Alexander looped in the Japanese to play Russian PacFlt.

Those type of fuck-fuck games would draw precisely the same sort of retaliation that Poland has been waging on the Eastern Line, only South America is far away from Russia's center of gravity. And he needs Brazil alive and importantly, amenable to reason with regards to the Amazon.
Not gonna help if you're sponsoring pirates off their northern coast.

its canon that Lind's timeline had one or more global epidemics "Corvid19" meet my cousin Corvid25 "Corvid25".... bend over
I know.
I've been working on an omake about one of those on and off for a while now.

I cant imagine the cartels going out peacefully to survive the government they would have to run(not sure how feasible that is) or become warlords
With their spigot of finance from the First World cut off with the Collapse, their options narrow sharply,
They're the feral cat in a cage match with a bear.
They either cut a deal, get out of the racket, or die.
 
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Venezuela may have profited in the short term but lost as green energy takes over
what happens from there depends on
1. does the government diversify its economy Alex would want something in return

2 does someone invaded to get the oil

Ima just spitballing here
 
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Nyet. 2012 Falklands census
2013 Guardian article gives a more detailed demographic breakdown:

Arg. I just spent a few days working on a reply and it got destroyed in a crash. Anyway, it doesn't matter that much.

What's important is the data you refer to is old and stuff happens fast in the Falklands, and arguing with people from the place you are arguing about with old data you don't necessarily know the context for is something that can cause a great deal of damage in the right circumstances, so maybe learn to not do it?

In the absence of actual military backup, what are they going to do against a Japanese trawler fleet? Or an Indian or Chinese or Spanish one?
How are they going to man the fishery patrol out of 2500 people? Who's even going to pay for maintaining and operating said fishery patrol?
Post-Collapse, the going price for marine diesel and JP-8 is gonna go WAY up, let alone spare parts.

From the data I could find (from the CIA world factbook), exports go to: Spain 74.4%, Namibia 10.4%, US 5% (data from 2017). East Asia doesn't even rate a mention nowadays.

Spain mostly imports Falklands squid to process and export to the rest of Europe (1/3rd of all squid eaten in Europe comes from the Falklands apparently). I have no idea what the heck is being exported to Namibia and the US. But what I do know is that people in Europe aren't importing Falklands squid as a necessity. It is a luxury food item in the Western world. I believe most of the rest of the catch from the Falklands is ground up to make animal feed, and while beef and chicken are incredibly common luxuries in the modern world, they are still luxuries.

I am rather dubious that anyone is going to send trawler fleets to the South Atlantic to urgently strip mine the oceans. Trawler fleets are expensive and high tech and what's being caught in the South Atlantic just isn't a matter of life and death for anyone who doesn't live there.

So I am both convinced that fishing exports AND tourism are going to be devastated during the collapse. Sheep farming is very likely to also be badly impacted, but might just about be able to support an impoverished way of life depending on what happens in Australia. But, you know, sheep are edible and so are potatoes. So I continue to hold to the idea that the Falklands are relatively well placed (relative to the US nuking itself and large well organized states like France and the UK breaking under internal stresses being reduced to abject poverty looks "relatively well placed" to me).

So really the viability of the Falklands on their comes down to one thing: what does Argentina want? And.. Well. We know what we want. The only question is how nasty they'll be about getting it. And considering the things they do in the here and now, I'll bet fairly nasty, if not helicopters over the ocean nasty.

There's an almost ten year interregnum between the collapse of the United States as a political entity and the fall of the Chinese Communist Party govt and the PRC. That was more than enough time for pretty much everyone to retool and diversify as the ME got more unstable. For example, Japan gets the vast bulk of it's oil(>90%) from the Middle East IRL, and Daddy Alexander is about to drop on the Arabs like a hammer.

I think you are severely underestimating the negative impact on the world that the US imploding would have. It is the sort of blow that in 2073 will still have the whole of human society ringing like a struck bell. A disaster on par with the implosion of Europe during WW2, only worse because Russia works to exacerbate the disaster, whereas the FDR and Truman administrations worked hard to mitigate the disaster of their era. So if Venezuela survives losing the destination of 40% of its exports (and the entire economy on which the international oil economy depends, because, you know, the US completely dominates the high tech manufacturing, consultancy and financing sectors in the oil industry), it will be in an extremely delicate place by the time that China is blown up.

And I am very dubious that China can neatly splinter without violence - in the here and now, ALL of the important parts of China are very securely in the grip of the Chinese Communist Party. To get Shanghai under a different regime from Beijing something unfathomably awful must have happened there. Just as something unfathomably awful was necessary to allow Victoria to rise from the mutilated corpses of the US and Canada.

-Yes it is. But its an El Nino weather phenomenon thing, as I understand it. This suggests periodic droughts are a thing

Sure, El Nino has been a thing for thousands of years, but human action has worsened its effects.

-The US, Mexico and Canada all collapsed, removing a significant chunk of production from the market, and correspondingly making the remaining producers much more important. Furthermore, the Middle East followed them. The speed at which the remaining economies will retool for different oil sources is very different when its literally a national priority.

The collapse of North America is also a human and economic disaster for everyone else living on planet Earth, removes much of the capacity TO retool and reduces a big chunk of demand.

I think you are really underestimating just how big a deal the collapse is.

-Piracy is not really a consideration.

Simon already answered this better, so, what Simon says.

It comes down to leadership, ideology, and economics, topics I'm sure won't be even slightly controversial, but I think it's a safe statement to make that the country's unique accomplishment of regressing into being classified as a 'developing nation' can be laid at the feet of a revolving door of governments that weren't very good at handling the economy, whether they be populist presidents or military juntas.

So, if Argentina is to climb out of its century-long stupor and become a world power, it'd depend entirely on its ability to appoint and maintain a competent government. It's really a question as to whether the Collapse would aid or hinder the country in that regard, I suppose.

When did Argentina regress to "developing nation" status? Do you mean the decline from being a relatively rich (per capita) commodity exporter at the start of the 20th Century? 'Cuz that whole story is misrepresentation by picking and choosing a few data points.

The truth is that there was a commodity boom at the end of the 19th Century and into WW1 under which Argentina enjoyed great prosperity. After WW1 ended, the commodity boom ended, and then a commodity bust hit the world in the Great Depression. Argentina rode through those storms... Well, pretty average really. Maybe even on the good side of average, maybe on the bad side of average. We could argue that either way.

If you compare Argentina to its peers in terms of literacy stats (a decent proxy for education quality), Argentina developed over the last century and a bit like you would expect for a country that had a 51% literacy rate in 1900 and a location on the Atlantic side of South America.

Also, I am not sure it is fair to say that Argentina is particularly poorly governed these days. The Argentine Junta fell more completely than the Juntas in Chile and Brazil, and the political system has endured for close to 40 years now despite some pretty bad crises. The gini coefficient is lower than that of the USA and has been dropping for 20 years now, the economy is performing fairly well compared to the rest of South America (it has been a bad few years in South America, and while the Argentine economy has shrunk since 2017, the fall has been less than places like Colombia and Brazil which still haven't recovered from their big economic contractions after 2014).

There are plenty of choice words for the failures, missed opportunities and criminal acts of those who have governed Argentina in the almost 40 years since the fall of the Junta, but the world has seen far worse in the same time period and I don't think one should underestimate the Argentine people.

fasquardon
 
Arg. I just spent a few days working on a reply and it got destroyed in a crash. Anyway, it doesn't matter that much.

What's important is the data you refer to is old and stuff happens fast in the Falklands, and arguing with people from the place you are arguing about with old data you don't necessarily know the context for is something that can cause a great deal of damage in the right circumstances, so maybe learn to not do it?
@uju32

I didn't realize fasquardon was from the Falklands until recently myself, but... I just want to say, this IS turning into another one of those cases where you keep insisting on something and trying to DEVASTATE the opposition with FACTS and LOGIC, far past the point where you've either missed something important or started causing offense.

I am rather dubious that anyone is going to send trawler fleets to the South Atlantic to urgently strip mine the oceans. Trawler fleets are expensive and high tech and what's being caught in the South Atlantic just isn't a matter of life and death for anyone who doesn't live there.
To be fair, if you have a trawler fleet during the Collapse, you're going to be operating it aggressively because you need the food. Where you go to do that will depend on geopolitics.
 
Suggestions for South America: Argentina

When the Collapse hit, Argentina was one of the largest agricultural producers in the world. While other countries lived with the specter of starvation, Argentina always had more than enough food. The only real problem was a matter of distribution, and leading politicians very rapidly decided that starving urban mobs would not in fact be conducive to either national stability or their personal survival. Though the export economy largely collapsed, Argentina adopted effective measures to ensure that every citizen had three meals a day.

Elements of the military were less than pleased with this perceived step towards a socialist economy, but their plans ran into immediate problems. One member of the would-be junta boasted of his plans to his girlfriend, who promptly informed the government. Half of the plotters were arrested in the middle of the night, and the remaining officers made a desperate attempt to convince their soldiers to rise up against the Bolsheviks. The rank and file were less than enthusiastic about this idea, and a handful of units who seemed to be more receptive were swiftly surrounded by loyalists. Before the sun rose over Argentina, the "July Plot" had ended with only a handful of casualties, most of them among the rebels.

Once the traitors within their military had revealed themselves, the government could move forward with more confidence. Argentina and Chile adopted almost identical solutions with very little coordination, having independently determined that people with food were less likely to seek extreme solutions to their problems. Socialists within the Argentinian government were also able to convince the state to find work for the unemployed in constructing vast new shelters that would serve to house the urban poor.

Education suffered, as it did everywhere. To this day, Argentina's infrastructure is still in desperate need of repair or replacement. Despite these failings, though, the average citizen of Argentina enjoys a better standard of living than they did before the Collapse. With a growing economy and a vast reduction in wealth inequality, Argentina is among the most desirable destinations for immigrants and refugees, though they are selective about who they take in.

Argentina cut their military budget during the Collapse, and they gave much of their old hardware to Brazilian rebels against the junta. Focused as they were on internal issues, the government was unpleasantly surprised by the enroaching influence of Russia in Central America. Fortunately, their European trading partners were more than willing to supply Argentina with military advisors and equipment in exchange for food and raw materials. Modern-day Argentina is hardly a military superpower, but their defensive alliance with Chile and Brazil discourages Russian or Japanese adventurism in their part of the world.

Tsar Alexander is not displeased with this arrangement. Unlike Brazil, which maintains a hostile relationship with the Russian Empire, Argentina is extremely polite. As long as they maintain their well-armed neutrality, he is content to leave well enough alone. The Tsar has even discouraged his Japanese allies from excessive ambition along the Pacific Coast of South America, knowing that any Japanese "intervention" could draw Argentina into the growing alliance against the Russian Empire and its allies.
 
When did Argentina regress to "developing nation" status? Do you mean the decline from being a relatively rich (per capita) commodity exporter at the start of the 20th Century? 'Cuz that whole story is misrepresentation by picking and choosing a few data points.
Obviously speaking the definition of a '1st world' and '3rd world' nation is largely arbitrary, but when people speak of Argentina in those terms, they're referring to the nation's unique status of having collapsed in prominence throughout the 20th century, starting it as a peer power to the United States and other European contemporaries, and ending it little different than the rest of its South American neighbors.

Here's the thing - you're comparing Argentina to its continental counterparts, and by those standards, it's done reasonably well for itself. But Argentina shouldn't be compared to places like Peru and Venezuela - it's geography is amazing, it's strategic positioning first-rate, it's subject to practically all the factors that turned the USA into the most successful nation on earth, and by all rights, it should've played just as important a role in world affairs as countries like France and India, not quite a Superpower but a force to be reckoned with in their own right. It should've established an awful, abusive relationship with the Falklands in the same way powerful nations do with their smaller, weaker neighbors, a la England and Ireland, Japan and Korea, or the US and Mexico.

But it isn't.

Now, the discussion as to why certain nations succeed and others don't is highly contentious, and I don't actually enjoy getting into internet arguments so I'm going to refrain from interjecting too much of my own opinion on the matter, besides some reasonably tame implications about the poisonous legacy of Juan Peron and muffled autistic screeching about populist economics. Nonetheless, it should be noted that little about the situation would actually be changed by the Collapse, and Argentina's worst enemy would continue to be Argentina, as when faced with a massive economic crisis it's highly likely they'd revert to old habits.
 
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