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Type Moon General

Salty said:
Uh, why the fuck would Yoshitsune have any reason to hate Benkei?

He died defending a bridge from enemies of Yoshitsune's, preventing them from crossing. It's so famous and so goddamn metal it's practically 3/4ths of his actual legend.
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Ah. I forgot that

But yeah point. Godamnit that was a dumb post of mine

Will edit it thanks for pointing it out
 
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BlackHadou said:
I dunno, this statement just seems unsubstantiated in the entirety of Fate. Cu being in the top three spearman seems to be a exception, not the rule, and even then he apparently would have issues with Diarmuid, who certainly shouldn't be in that same category.
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IIRC the reason for him losing to Diarmuid came down to him having shit for mana thanks to Kirei.

EDIT:
Q: Cu Chulainn and Diarmuid are both Lancers, but who will win in an honourble battle? In their first engagement with Saber, Cu Chulainn was being pressed hard, but Diarmuid was able to pressure Saber. So... Diarmuid is stronger

A: Diarmuid received more backup from his Master (magical energy supply), thus in terms of pure firepower, Diarmuid was stronger. In Japan, both of them received 0 geographical boost (from the cultural sphere), but if the stage was in Ireland --- Cu Chulainn would have an edge.
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America

Liz rages because Karna is fucking broken and complains how can two lancers have such differences

Karna: "I am a Lancer. You are a idol. That's our difference."

Kek
 
The Curious Fan said:
IIRC the reason for him losing to Diarmuid came down to him having shit for mana thanks to Kirei.
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Proto-Cu's statline is given as one rank higher than Cu-Classic's in all respects but Endurance, which strikes me as fairly appropriate for someone as ridiculous as him. So yeah, as far as I'm concerned Cu's real statline is A/C/A+/B/D
 
ZerbanDaGreat said:
Proto-Cu's statline is given as one rank higher than Cu-Classic's in all respects but Endurance, which strikes me as fairly appropriate for someone as ridiculous as him. So yeah, as far as I'm concerned Cu's real statline is A/C/A+/B/D
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Which makes total sense, considering Saber ranks down in everything when she gets no mana from Shirou, and Gilgamesh ranks down in everything when he gets no mana from Tokiomi. So Cu Chulainn ranking down in everything when he gets no mana from Kotomine is consistent with every other example we have, and means that a Bazett/Cu team can even cheerfully beast on Illya.

Though truthfully, I'm not sure why his Endurance is so low.
 
The F/GO protag is an unusual person, in that they share infinite mana sources by tapping into the Gudakos of every parallel world. Some were born with much higher quality magic circuits, some with lower, and each spirit he contracts with is given mana from one of those randomly selected alternate selves.

I mean what makes more sense, that, or the game devs just being too lazy to want to adjust stat parameters from canon sheets up and down to try and conform to one baseline when the real deciding factor of how good they are isn't even tied to it :V

Edit: I should note that the former was entirely me bullshitting on the spot in order to try and make a funny. I forgot that this is Nasu and stupider shit has been canon.
 
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LupineVolt said:
The F/GO protag is an unusual person, in that they share infinite mana sources by tapping into the Gudakos of every parallel world. Some were born with much higher quality magic circuits, some with lower, and each spirit he contracts with is given mana from one of those randomly selected alternate selves.

I mean what makes more sense, that, or the game devs just being too lazy to want to adjust stat parameters from canon sheets up and down to try and conform to one baseline when the real deciding factor of how good they are isn't even tied to it :V
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The latter, honestly, but then, they weren't that lazy, as Nobu's stat lines differ.
 
LupineVolt said:
The F/GO protag is an unusual person, in that they share infinite mana sources by tapping into the Gudakos of every parallel world. Some were born with much higher quality magic circuits, some with lower, and each spirit he contracts with is given mana from one of those randomly selected alternate selves.

I mean what makes more sense, that, or the game devs just being too lazy to want to adjust stat parameters from canon sheets up and down to try and conform to one baseline when the real deciding factor of how good they are isn't even tied to it :V

Edit: I should note that the former was entirely me bullshitting on the spot in order to try and make a funny. I forgot that this is Nasu and stupider shit has been canon.
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Yeah, I took a quick look through the wiki and it looks like they did copy and paste the stats from original source into F/GO...expect for Saber. Mind you, the only difference between her in F/GO and her under Rin in F/SN is that her strength is at B instead of A.
 
Revlid said:
Though truthfully, I'm not sure why his Endurance is so low.
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Master alignment, I suppose? Kiritsugu had a similar issue, where he didn't quite have the power to fully use Saber, so her stats sorta jumped around based on him. ProtoLancer's master is better then Kirei, but perhaps still not up to par with the demands of a B++ or A level servant, so stats shift a bit.

Is END health or DR anyways? They don't seem to take into account skills or NPs that would boost them (except sometimes with mad enhancement).
 
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Soulgazer said:
Master alignment, I suppose? Kiritsugu had a similar issue, where he didn't quite have the power to fully use Saber, so her stats sorta jumped around based on him. ProtoLancer's master is better then Kirei, but perhaps still not up to par with the demands of a B++ or A level servant, so stats shift a bit.

Is END health or DR anyways? They don't seem to take into account skills or NPs that would boost them (except sometimes with mad enhancement).
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so what im getting from this is that servant stats can vary based on the amount of power their mastercan provide.

...in theory, would a shit tier servant be able to keep up with a higher tier servant if the master was uber-powerful?
 
cthulhu fartagn said:
so what im getting from this is that servant stats can vary based on the amount of power their mastercan provide.

...in theory, would a shit tier servant be able to keep up with a higher tier servant if the master was uber-powerful?
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Probably not, unless the high tier servant had a shit master.

I'm just spitballing here, but I think each Servant has a specific level of power they are meant to be at. If the master isn't up to the task, they are going to be weaker. An extremely powerful master might confer a bonus here and there (Illya granting Heracles life regens), but you probably can't take a servant too far above its baseline. The example I would use here is Saber Alter, who despite having Sakura's supply, isn't stronger then Rin!Saber beyond being able to use Excalibur Morgan more, or EMIYA, who has crap stats Rin or Hakuno.

Of course, between fights being more about compatibility then straight up powerlevels, powercreep saturating the upper tiers while leaving lower ones fairly barren (seriously, separating the servants requires something like B, B+, B++, A, A+, A++, EX at this point), and other hjinks expected of a grail war, the whole high tier v low tier is in itself a bad way to look at it except in cases where you have a clear gap, like Karna vs Astolfo or something.
 
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LostDeviljho said:
Eh?
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It's from the Fate bonus material books, Illya is giving Berserker enough mana that he'll regenerating his life count over time.

Fate: Complete Material III said:
Noble Phantasm
God Hand: Twelve Labors
Rank: B
Type: Anti-Unit
Range: -
Maximum Targets:

A blessing of Gods, as well as a curse. It is a Noble Phantasm given to Heracles, representing immortality. This Noble Phantasm does not have an overt external manifestation such as a weapon or armour, but if you hazard to put a shape to it, the body itself can be called the Noble Phantasm. God Hand turns one's body into a tough suit of armour and nullifies all attacks Rank B or lower, regardless the attack being physical or magical. It also has the effect of automatic resurrection after death. Because the resurrection effect has 11 uses, Heracles cannot perish unless killed 12 times. In addition, due to Ilya's immense magical energy, given enough time, the lives lost can also be regenerated.

Resurrection as well as attack-nullification. Besides these two effects, God Hand also possesses a third effect: rendering an attack that it has experienced before useless. Regardless how powerful is the Noble Phantasm that defeated Heracles, it would be completely nullified after he resurrects.
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Soulgazer said:
Probably not, unless the high tier servant had a shit master.

I'm just spitballing here, but I think each Servant has a specific level of power they are meant to be at. If the master isn't up to the task, they are going to be weaker. An extremely powerful master might confer a bonus here and there (Illya granting Heracles life regens), but you probably can't take a servant too far above its baseline. The example I would use here is Saber Alter, who despite having Sakura's supply, isn't stronger then Rin!Saber beyond being able to use Excalibur Morgan more, or EMIYA, who has crap stats Rin or Hakuno.

Of course, between fights being more about compatibility then straight up powerlevels, powercreep saturating the upper tiers while leaving lower ones fairly barren (seriously, separating the servants requires something like B, B+, B++, A, A+, A++, EX at this point), and other hjinks expected of a grail war, the whole high tier v low tier is in itself a bad way to look at it except in cases where you have a clear gap, like Karna vs Astolfo or something.
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so what your saying is that if i took someone like kojiro or asterios, and hooked them up to, lets say, a dozen masters (or something similar to berserker cu in america), they still wouldnt be able to match someone like saber?
 
cthulhu fartagn said:
so what your saying is that if i took someone like kojiro or asterios, and hooked them up to, lets say, a dozen masters (or something similar to berserker cu in america), they still wouldnt be able to match someone like saber?
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You picked, like, the worst two examples for that. Kojipro is well-established as one of if not the best swordfighter in the series and would indeed be pretty rad if summoned by a proper master, and Asterion's given stats are so absurd that even without his (kind of? maybe?) Reality Marble he should be able to wrassle Hercules into submission and bodyslam Gilgamesh to death.
 
Kojiro wouldn't be more awesome since what makes him awesome are things he carries with him all the time, no matter how shitty his master. Asterios is the guy who canonically wrestled Hercules and has a Reality Marble-esque NP to boot.
 
ZerbanDaGreat said:
You picked, like, the worst two examples for that. Kojipro is well-established as one of if not the best swordfighter in the series and would indeed be pretty rad if summoned by a proper master, and Asterion's given stats are so absurd that even without his (kind of? maybe?) Reality Marble he should be able to wrassle Hercules into submission and bodyslam Gilgamesh to death.
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...oops? i just picked two 1 star servants out of my ass. i forgot that kojiro is that damn good a swordsman. and i didnt play okeanos - i stopped playing fgo after the last level of rome, and have since failed to get any emulator to work for me.
 
cthulhu fartagn said:
...oops? i just picked two 1 star servants out of my ass. i forgot that kojiro is that damn good a swordsman. and i didnt play okeanos - i stopped playing fgo after the last level of rome, and have since failed to get any emulator to work for me.
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Stars are utterly irrelevant to actual power level. They're game mechanics that serve GO's function as a waifu and husbando collector, not indications of how valuable the Servant should actually be.
 
Kojiro is already running on Medea, so he's probably capped.

A Nation's Virtue said:
Asterios is the guy who canonically wrestled Hercules and has a Reality Marble-esque NP to boot.
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Wait, when? Frankly, Asterion's stats are already really high, so I don't know if he is suffering at all from badmaster downgrade. I doubt it.

cthulhu fartagn said:
...oops? i just picked two 1 star servants out of my ass. i forgot that kojiro is that damn good a swordsman. and i didnt play okeanos - i stopped playing fgo after the last level of rome, and have since failed to get any emulator to work for me.
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Stars are a bad way of determining servant quality. Its a popularity contest.
 
Soulgazer said:
Kojiro is already running on Medea, so he's probably capped.
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IIRC, she just gave him a stockpile on first summoning, and doesn't bother to actually send power his way throughout the War. That's why his situation doesn't change at all when Medea dies before him in UBW. He's just slowly running out of energy with his real Master being the Temple gate.

So his stats could probably still be buffed a bit by a proper Master.
 
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