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Type Moon General

Soulgazer said:
Kojiro is already running on Medea, so he's probably capped.



Wait, when? Frankly, Asterion's stats are already really high, so I don't know if he is suffering at all from badmaster downgrade. I doubt it.



Stars are a bad way of determining servant quality. Its a popularity contest.
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He wrestled Herakles in Okeanos and then Hector speared the two of them. This was just before his confession to Euryale about how he loved her.
 
cthulhu fartagn said:
so what your saying is that if i took someone like kojiro or asterios, and hooked them up to, lets say, a dozen masters (or something similar to berserker cu in america), they still wouldnt be able to match someone like saber?
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A better example for you would probably be Mata Hari. She's a case in which being summoned in the Assassin class probably has actually made her much better than she was in life. However, she has a much lower ceiling for how much she can be improved by mana alone. Assuming Gudako is an average Master, perhaps hooked up to a homunculus she might be able to reach D ranks in a few of her statistics.

Meanwhile, some Servants will still have alright statistics even while bogged down by mana limitations, like Arturia, Cu, and Medusa.
 
LupineVolt said:
A better example for you would probably be Mata Hari. She's a case in which being summoned in the Assassin class probably has actually made her much better than she was in life. However, she has a much lower ceiling for how much she can be improved by mana alone. Assuming Gudako is an average Master, perhaps hooked up to a homunculus she might be able to reach D ranks in a few of her statistics.

Meanwhile, some Servants will still have alright statistics even while bogged down by mana limitations, like Arturia, Cu, and Medusa.
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but my question remains. shit tier+lots of power = high tier, or =/= high tier?
 
A Nation's Virtue said:
He wrestled Herakles in Okeanos and then Hector speared the two of them. This was just before his confession to Euryale about how he loved her.
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Oh, I thought you mean myth canon. Whoops.

Xellos said:
IIRC, she just gave him a stockpile on first summoning, and doesn't bother to actually send power his way throughout the War. That's why his situation doesn't change at all when Medea dies before him in UBW. He's just slowly running out of energy with his real Master being the Temple gate.

So his stats could probably still be buffed a bit by a proper Master.
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Thing is, I don't think he's really all that good a heroic spirit (being a wraith and all). For one, his stats are all crap save agility in the first place, and the most we have seen from a master upgrade is a 1-2 rank upgrade at most, and that's going from a terrible master to an amazing one big time mythical heroes. A wraith whose 2 or 3 not HS sufficient people jammed together, his overall mystery/strength is probably low.

cthulhu fartagn said:
but my question remains. shit tier+lots of power = high tier, or =/= high tier?
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Low to mid, maybe. Not low to high (with exceptions for some randomass trump card noble phantasm or something).

Again, from what we see of master down or upgrades in the story, one can expect a single rank's worth of difference, and that is between "Kirei/Shirou/Shinji" utter shit to "Rin/Sakura" glorious rivers of prana.

Again, with exceptions (Kiritsugu granted Saber high physical stats, but tanked her luck), because this is Nasuverse we are talking about.
 
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Well hey let's not talk down Kojipro too much. Dude has an A and an A+, and that A+ in Agility was enough to make C-rank Strength parry A-rank Strength A-rank Mana Burst slashes at the end of UBW. Even Gilwagon is afraid of Kojipro in single combat.
 
ZerbanDaGreat said:
Well hey let's not talk down Kojipro too much. Dude has an A and an A+, and that A+ in Agility was enough to make C-rank Strength parry A-rank Strength A-rank Mana Burst slashes at the end of UBW. Even Gilwagon is afraid of Kojipro in single combat.
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Right up until he stood back and flattened Kojiro with a tidal wave of gently used wine goblets.
 
So, looking at Billy stat's in detail, I get the impression that he's best teamed with someone who can reliable generate lots of crit stars.
Seriously, his first skill breaks 100% crit damage after you level it enough, his third skill is EotM, which increases crit damage, and he has Independent Action, which increases crit damage.
 
Well, all the power level contests are pretty wacky when for many of the heroes themselves, were weaker than their monstrous foes in their legend, but compatibility/circumstances/cheating was on their side.

Hence Gilgamesh gets beaten by the common as dirt mere mortal from sheer arrogance(sort of like the snake who yoinked his potion), Arthur is undone by underhanded means, Shiki kills all the things with knife, etc.

It's not like Nasu treats power levels as anything beyond "is the fight even happening?"
 
veekie said:
Well, all the power level contests are pretty wacky when for many of the heroes themselves, were weaker than their monstrous foes in their legend, but compatibility/circumstances/cheating was on their side.

Hence Gilgamesh gets beaten by the common as dirt mere mortal from sheer arrogance(sort of like the snake who yoinked his potion), Arthur is undone by underhanded means, Shiki kills all the things with knife, etc.

It's not like Nasu treats power levels as anything beyond "is the fight even happening?"
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the old 'a servant is only good in one scenario. that scenario is happening now.' thought process.
 
veekie said:
Well, all the power level contests are pretty wacky when for many of the heroes themselves, were weaker than their monstrous foes in their legend, but compatibility/circumstances/cheating was on their side.

Hence Gilgamesh gets beaten by the common as dirt mere mortal from sheer arrogance(sort of like the snake who yoinked his potion), Arthur is undone by underhanded means, Shiki kills all the things with knife, etc.

It's not like Nasu treats power levels as anything beyond "is the fight even happening?"
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Nasu honestly doesn't even treat stats as that. There are several fights where the outcome should have been the equivalent of a DBZ style fist stuck in someones unflinching face that occur as serious battles.

Like, if we're all one hundred percent serious for a moment, everything on a Servants sheet bar their Noble Phantasms is literally fluff and rather irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
 
LostDeviljho said:
So, looking at Billy stat's in detail, I get the impression that he's best teamed with someone who can reliable generate lots of crit stars.
Seriously, his first skill breaks 100% crit damage after you level it enough, his third skill is EotM, which increases crit damage, and he has Independent Action, which increases crit damage.
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Pretty much, his job is to crit as hard as he can.
 
BlackHadou said:
Nasu honestly doesn't even treat stats as that. There are several fights where the outcome should have been the equivalent of a DBZ style fist stuck in someones unflinching face that occur as serious battles.

Like, if we're all one hundred percent serious for a moment, everything on a Servants sheet bar their Noble Phantasms is literally fluff and rather irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
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Hum. If there's one thing Extra does right, it makes the skills important. Rider powers up from treasure to make the boss fight harder, Alice is Alice, Robin Hood is all about plaguing you with harm without a fair fight, Li Shuwen is invisible always, Gawain is fucking invincible.

Shame that it's in the rock paper scissors simulator.
 
Nanimani said:
Hum. If there's one thing Extra does right, it makes the skills important. Rider powers up from treasure to make the boss fight harder, Alice is Alice, Robin Hood is all about plaguing you with harm without a fair fight, Li Shuwen is invisible always, Gawain is fucking invincible.

Shame that it's in the rock paper scissors simulator.
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Thing is that, when it comes down to it, skills are a game mechanic trying to be relevant in a narrative.

I can honestly see why Nasu might ignore them.
 
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