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Type Moon General

Kintty said:
So basically no, it's never stated that Caladbolg did not kill Berserker, nor is it said that it was blocked.
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Meh said:
The black giant turns his back to us and attacks the "arrow" coming at him with all his might

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Seriously? Herc swung at it and blocked it. It's right there. The reason Ilya took an interest in him wasn't because of the big boom, but because Herc has the ability to sense when a blow is gonna be a killing one and moved to block it. It showed Ilya that Archer was strong enough to kill Herc while Saber showed nothing.

Which is why the latest ep was weird.
 
Meh said:
Seriously? Herc swung at it and blocked it. It's right there. The reason Ilya took an interest in him wasn't because of the big boom, but because Herc has the ability to sense when a blow is gonna be a killing one and moved to block it. It showed Ilya that Archer was strong enough to kill Herc while Saber showed nothing.

Which is why the latest ep was weird.
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I personally consider something blocked when it's succesful in negating the damage. Whether that happened or not is up to interpretation.

And if talking about the episode, then Berserker just stands there looking at the arrow and does nothing about it. In this case he obviously didn't block.
 
Kintty said:
I personally consider something blocked when it's succesful in negating the damage. Whether that happened or not is up to interpretation.

And if talking about the episode, then Berserker just stands there looking at the arrow and does nothing about it. In this case he obviously didn't block.
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GO through it slowly. When the arrow impacts and the explosion start and the camera moves between Shirou, Saber, Rin, and Berserker, you can see that Berserker swung. He did block the damn thing there. As for negating, it did. Otherwise Berserker would be suffering from a bad case of burnt off skin for a while.

The thing about Herc, he doesn't need to fully negate an attack to block it, only mitigate the damage to a level where God Hand stops it from affecting him at all.

EDIT: For the Herc blocking
 
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Meh said:
GO through it slowly. When the arrow impacts and the explosion start and the camera moves between Shirou, Saber, Rin, and Berserker, you can see that Berserker swung. He did block the damn thing there. As for negating, it did. Otherwise Berserker would be suffering from a bad case of burnt off skin for a while.

The thing about Herc, he doesn't need to fully negate an attack to block it, only mitigate the damage to a level where God Hand stops it from affecting him at all.
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I'm going through it slowly, and once and over again all I see is Berserker standing with his sword-axe in his right hand, looking at the arrow, doing nothing. Then, when the explosion starts, we see him again with him sword-axe in his right hand, simply standing there. There's no indication that he even moved. While it could be argued that his stance is slightly different from the previous shot, I can simply answer that he's bracing for impact. And come on, if there's anything good going for Archer's arrows is that they are fast. Not only because he's a servant but because it's his god damn class. If you're implying that Berserker is fast enough to block an arrow fired by Archer when said arrow is merely inches from his face, then you're simply wanking to Heracles here.

As for burnt skin, that wouldn't be a problem if the entire body happened to be new. I mean, Saber made a hole on his body, and he not only regenerated in seconds, he also had no marks to show for it.
 
Kintty said:
And come on, if there's anything good going for Archer's arrows is that they are fast. Not only because he's a servant but because it's his god damn class. If you're implying that Berserker is fast enough to block an arrow fired by Archer when said arrow is merely inches from his face, then you're simply wanking to Heracles here.
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Only he actually did so in the VN, where Archer fired it kinda closer. And as we see, Berserker saw that thing coming. And in case it hasn't been hammered in, Berserker is fast. As fast as Lancer, who managed to turtle Gilgamesh's similar speed sword spam for a few hours in Fate.

Also, what I am doing isn't wanking. Wanking is saying someone can y because they did x regardless of the any difference in circumstance or scale. What I am doing is saying what happened.

Anyway, for further evidence of Herc blocking, look at where the explosion starts. In front of Herc, not from Herc as it would have if it had been a direct hit.
 
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Wolfy said:
We were talking about scene from VN.
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I know. He was the one who brought up the UBW ep and how Herc was supposedly not blocking

Uh, no. Wanking, masturbating or jacking off is definitely not "saying someone can y because they did x" :p

Nor it is its other meaning. It's more like blowing shit out of proportions because you like it
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Edited for accuracy while you were typing this.
 
Meh said:
Only he actually did so in the VN, where Archer fired it kinda closer. And as we see, Berserker saw that thing coming. And in case it hasn't been hammered in, Berserker is fast. As fast as Lancer, who managed to turtle Gilgamesh's similar speed sword spam for a few hours in Fate.

Also, what I am doing isn't wanking. Wanking is saying someone can y because they did x regardless of the any difference in circumstance or scale. What I am doing is saying what happened.
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In the VN he did, yes, but the VN did not show an image of Archer's arrow being barely inches away from Berzerker's face, so he could have simply started the block while the arrow was a hundred meters away.

I'm not denying Berserker is fast, but in the absence of hard numbers I can only apply common sense. For an analogy, mundane humans do not outrun mundane bullets, nor are they fast enough to block them. Translated to servants, it's somewhat safe to assume that servants are not fast enough to outrun servant bullets, though blocking is perhaps possible due to instincts and magic mumbo-jumbo.

You may not like the analogy, but think of it this way. The Holy Grail War is a game, and as a game it needs to be balanced. Berserker excels at everything physical while Archer is mostly a weakling. The only thing Archer has going for him is his arrows, and if his arrows aren't faster than servants then his class becomes downright puny and useless. He can shoot all he wants but he'll always be dodged. So for the Archer class to remain significant during the game, the most likely ability for him to posses is for his arrows to be fast enough to take servants by surprise.

Gilgamesh is not a good example for an Archer. We don't know if Gil was being serious or if he was toying with the dog in that scene.
Meh said:
I know. He was the one who brought up the UBW ep
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It's the F/SN TV thread, it's actually the only thing we should be talking about.
 
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Kintty said:
It's the F/SN TV thread, it's actually the only thing we should be talking about.
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Uh, it's Fate Series Discussion THread, not TV Thread.
EDIT: nevermind just noticed that TV tag there. But in the absence of a
Kintty said:
In the VN he did, yes, but the VN did not show an image of Archer's arrow being barely inches away from Berzerker's face, so could have simply started the block while the arrow was a hundred meters away.

I'm not denying Berserker is fast, but in the absence of hard numbers I can only apply common sense. For an analogy, mundane humans do not outrun mundane bullets, nor are they fast enough to block them. Translated to servants, it's somewhat safe to assume that servants are not fast enough to outrun servant bullets, though blocking is perhaps possible due to instincts and magic mumbo-jumbo.

You may not like the analogy, but think of it this way. The Holy Grail War is a game, and as a game it needs to be balanced. Berserker excels at everythin physical while Archer is mostly a weakling. The only think Archer has going for him is his arrows, and if his arrows aren't faster than servants then his class becomes downright puny and useless. He can shoot all he want's but he'll always be dodged. So for the Archer class to remain significant during the game, the most likely abilitie for him to posses is for his arrows to be fast enough to take servants by surprise.

Gilgamesh is not a good example for an Archer. We don't know if Gil was being serious or if he was toying with the dog in that scene.
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Yes, the HGW is a game designed by three families. Only the Einzberns are the equivalent of cheater's who use console commands without really understanding how they work. In fact, everybody cheats. Tokiomi makes a pact with some in a game that's supposed to be a free-for-fall. Kayneth dumps half his responsibility as a master to Sola.

Berserker sacrifices mental abilities for insane physical capabilities, only he retains his instinct in the form of Eye of Mind. Those two combined let him see Archer's attack coming, know that it could actually hurt him, and block it.

As for balance... HAVE YOU FUCKING SEEN WHAT GIL, ALTRIA, and HERC have? Karna? Siegfried? Semiramis?

In theory, the Servants are balanced. The Class Cards show balanced Stat Allocation. Only even with that Saber's are seen as the best because they have the best Base(non modified by the Heroic Spirit) stats.

As Gil toying with Cu, yes he was. Until he got bored and just chained him up and shot him. And keep in mind, Gil's toying with people involves shooting super swords at supersonic speeds.
 
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Meh said:
Uh, it's Fate Series Discussion THread, not TV Thread.
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Look again. There's yellow box to the left of the title that say quite clearly "TV".
Meh said:
Yes, the HGW is a game designed by three families. Only the Einzberns are the equivalent of cheater's who use console commands without really understanding how they work. Berserker sacrifices mental abilities for insane physical capabilities, only he retains his instinct in the form of Eye of Mind.

As Gil toying with Cu, yes he was. Until he got bored and just chained him up and shot him. And keep in mind, Gil's toying with people involves shooting super swords at supersonic speeds.
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Except that the console command for your servant to be a Berserker is actually working as designed, because anyone can use it. Just have to be the first to try. So yeah, Berserker is actually not that special, he's part of the game as it was originally designed. The only cheat there is Illya, actually, and we're not exactly sure how that affect Berserker's performance.
Xellos said:
I hate to be that guy who homes in on just one part of an argument and for something, but seriously.





Have you watched this stuff?!
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You don't have to think too hard to see that no one servant is truly invinsible... There's always a servant who has an advantadge over the other.
 
HGW balance. You have knight classes. Good stuff.

You have four randomly generated classes. Generally shit. Shittier. Got drawbacks you generally don't want to have.

Among knight classes, two of them are trap. Lancers have their luck and Archers are bound to fuck up their Master at some point.

Which leaves us with best Servant, Saber.

Eizberns love their advantages.
 
Kintty said:
You don't have to think too hard to see that no one servant is truly invinsible... There's always a servant who has an advantadge over the other.
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Avalon. Just Avalon. As for advantage... Gil has an advantage over everyone by default. He's just to arrogant to actually use any advantage aside from 'overwhelming firepower'

Also, made edits while you were writing your reply.
Kintty said:
Except that the console command for your servant to be a Berserker is actually working as designed, because anyone can use it. Just have to be the first to try. So yeah, Berserker is actually not that special, he's part of the game as it was originally designed. The only cheat there is Illya, actually, and we're not exactly sure how that affect Berserker's performance.
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The console command analogy was directed more at them summoning Avenger than Berserker really. It's like they were playing a Holy Kingdom in CK2, and then entered the console command for the Spawn of Satan Event expecting nothing to go wrong and for their nice Catholic kingdom to just be fine.

Still, console command applies to Herc because they got him way early. Like before the grail that lets everybody else summon their's even shows up early.

Also, in the absence of a Fate/Type Moon thread, can we convert this into one?
 
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Kintty said:
You don't have to think too hard to see that no one servant is truly invinsible... There's always a servant who has an advantadge over the other.
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That's the Heroic Spirits. That's just the matter of the 'everyone is hax being the background.

Try looking at the class container stats sometimes(you know, the stuff the Grail War's creators actually created), note that 3 of them are absurdly better than the other four, then note that it was 3 families that came together to make the thing, and only invited outside participants as patsies who were never intended to win.

Then take note of the fact that aside from the three families and their direct allies, nobody involved knows how to actually get the Grail.

This is on purpose.

The Heaven's Feel is the most deliberately unbalanced 'game' ever conceived. It was designed by its creators to give them an advantage.
 
Meh said:
As for balance... HAVE YOU FUCKING SEEN WHAT GIL, ALTRIA, and HERC have? Karna? Siegfried? Semiramis?

In theory, the Servants are balanced. The Class Cards show balanced Stat Allocation. Only even with that Saber's are seen as the best because they have the best Base(non modified by the Heroic Spirit) stats.
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Yet they are impeded by their personalities that prevent them from using expressing their full potential. It's really narrow minded to think that stats are the only important thing. Of course Gil can curbstomp everyone if he wants, he just won't do it and the GM, whoever that entity is, knows it.

EDIT: It's my headcanon that the HG is somewhat sentient.

Don't have any idea about Karna or Siegfired or anyone else. My knowledge is solely from F/SN and F/Z.
Meh said:
Avalon. Just Avalon.
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Well... it's not like Saber started with Avalon. Clearly the GM intended Arturia to have to sacrifice her virginity in order to complete the quest that would reward her with Avalon! :p
The console command analogy was directed more at them summoning Avenger than Berserker really. It's like they were playing a Holy Kingdom in CK2, and then entered the console command for the Spawn of Satan Event expecting nothing to go wrong and for their nice Catholic kingdom to just be fine.
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That cheat backfired. Horribly. So yeah, I'm not sure if trying to cheat the HG will actually give you an advantadge.
Also, in the absence of a Fate/Type Moon thread, can we convert this into one?
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It already is one, essentially. I just felt the need to bring up that comparing to UBW episodes in not off topic at all.
Xellos said:
That's the Heroic Spirits. That's just the matter of the 'everyone is hax being the background.

Try looking at the class container stats sometimes(you know, the stuff the Grail War's creators actually created), note that 3 of them are absurdly better than the other four, then note that it was 3 families that came together to make the thing, and only invited outside participants as patsies who were never intended to win.

Then take note of the fact that aside from the three families and their direct allies, nobody involved knows how to actually get the Grail.

This is on purpose.

The Heaven's Feel is the most deliberately unbalanced 'game' ever conceived. It was designed by its creators to give them an advantage.
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It's quite easier to program the grail to make you win. Since they don't do that, it's safe to assume they don't really have that much control over the system. And they still get screwed over by outsiders, so it's not like the grail is giving them any advantadge.
 
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Kintty said:
Don't have any idea about Karna or Siegfired or anyone else. My knowledge is solely from F/SN and F/Z.
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Karna, also known as Lancer of Red, has indestructible golden armor that grants him Complete Immortality. When stakes were materialized inside his brain to bypass trying to actually penetrate it, he incinerated them inside his body with his Prana Burst Flames, and continued on like it's nothing.

He also has an Anti-Country Noble Phantasm. His spear is a mythological nuke.

He's also got a one-shot Anti-God spear.

It's quite easier to program the grail to make you win. Since they don't do that, it's safe to assume they don't really have that much control over the system. And they still get screwed over by outsiders, so it's not like the grail is giving them any advantadge.
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No it isn't. That's not what the Grail is for. It isn't an AI, it isn't some robot that follows commands. It is made to open a hole to Akasha using the power of dead Servant souls returning their data their to generate it. It is not sentient. It had no will of it's own whatsoever until Angra Mainyu got stuck inside it and made the thing malignant by adding some 'Source of All Evil' into the magic machine that does one thing and one thing only.

Wish granting? It's hijacking the system to use the accumulated energy for something else. Prior to Anra Mainyu, this would be entirely on the shoulders of the magus trying it. There was nothing to 'offer your prayer' in words to to get something done.

The 'Holy Grail War' is more rightly called Heaven's Feel because referring to the thing as a war or a game with some prize to win is a total goddamn joke and a lie made to draw in outside suckers.
 
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Kintty said:
Yet they are impeded by their personalities that prevent them from using expressing their full potential. It's really narrow minded to think that stats are the only important thing. Of course Gil can curbstomp everyone if he wants, he just won't do it and the GM, whoever that entity is, knows it.
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Just pointing out, CCC, Apocrypha, and hell even just F/SN shows how little balance there is in the HGW.

Gil- Finds a master he actually likes, shatters subdimension and flies into the stars with his master. After stomping pretty much everyone in the war.
CCC - Karna. Super Loyal. Completely obedient. NP is Anti-Country and he's strong enough that he's confused at how he hasn't punch this Saber's... anything off. The Saber is in turn surprised that he's actually bleeding.
Fate- Avalon. Just Avalon.

There is no balance in the Grail because the Servant Templates are actually pretty maleable.
 
Xellos said:
Karna, also known as Lancer of Red, has indestructible golden armor that grants him Complete Immortality. When stakes were materialized inside his brain to bypass trying to actually penetrate it, he incinerated them inside his body with his Prana Burst Flames, and continued on like it's nothing.

He also has an Anti-Country Noble Phantasm. His spear is a mythological nuke.
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Also the source of the well known "I have become death, destroyer of worlds" line. Also, punches so hard the universe shifts. At least in his legend. Not sure about in the Grail War.
 
Meh said:
Also the source of the well known "I have become death, destroyer of worlds" line.
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Incorrect. That's actually Krishna, an entirely different character who also happens to be a king and the avatar of a god.

Points for effort, at least you got a character in the right story, even though that bit is part of the Bhagavad Gita proper, and not really relevant to the rest of the Mahabharata.

...Dammit, now here I am thinking of Archjuna.
 
Salty said:
Incorrect. That's actually Krishna, an entirely different character who also happens to be a king and the avatar of a god.

Points for effort, at least you got a character in the right story, even though that bit is part of the Bhagavad Gita proper, and not really relevant to the rest of the Mahabharata.

...Dammit, now here I am thinking of Archjuna.
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Sorry, my Hindu myth-fu is weak.

Meh.
 
Well, I give up. Can't convince you if you really want to believe some characters are OP, and I'm not really interested in the side material.

However this
Xellos said:
No it isn't. That's not what the Grail is for. It isn't an AI, it isn't some robot that follows commands. It is made to open a hole to Akasha using the power of dead Servant souls returning their data their to generate it. It is not sentient. It had no will of it's own whatsoever until Angra Mainyu got stuck inside it and made the thing malignant by adding some 'Source of All Evil' into the magic machine that does one thing and one thing only.
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What is a spell if not a series of commands and instructions woven together to act in harmony and achieve a result? And what is a program if not a series of commands and instructions woven together to act in harmony and achieve a result? Programs need not be intelligent in order to create a balanced game, and there's a difference between sentience and sapience.
 
Kintty said:
Well, I give up. Can't convince you if you really want to believe some characters are OP, and I'm not really interested in the side material.
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*Only has knowledge of the anime*
*Says he "has no interest in the side material"*

Dude, this is the side material. That thing that airs on Saturday is the freaking side material.

What is a spell if not a series of commands and instructions woven together to act in harmony and achieve a result? And what is a program if not a series of commands and instructions woven together to act in harmony and achieve a result? Programs need not be intelligent in order to create a balanced game, and there's a difference between sentience and sapience.
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See the thing is, 'the balanced game' is explicitly the hook that the three families of the beginning are feeding to people. This isn't some weird info drawn from an interview with an author; this is stuff learned in Heaven's Feel, from the original visual novel. These are things people learned when Fate/Stay Night first became a thing.
 
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