Clarification regarding the definition of Evil Spirits, Demons, and Ploys in the Mahoyo Collab:
From
ovg8 on the RayShift TL about how demons are fromed
I provided a translation to the bit by ovg8 above immediately after you asked, as his translation doesn't actually line up with established terminology, but you might have missed it. Specifically, he misrendered "ma."
Mahoyo Collab said:
＠ 静希草十郎
？ 除霊と悪魔祓いは同じじゃないのか？
＠ カレンちゃん
違います。悪霊は人間の業による因果応報。
悪魔は魔の流出による、人知無能の存在です。
＠ 静希草十郎・Shizuki Soujuurou
？ 除霊と悪魔祓いは同じじゃないのか？
? Aren't "the elimination of spirits" (除霊) and "the exorcism of demons" (悪魔祓い) the same?
＠ カレンちゃん・Caren-chan
違います。悪霊は人間の業による因果応報。
That's incorrect. Evil spirits (悪霊) are as causal consequences (因果応報; 因果, the Buddhist conception of causality, commonly misrepresented as "karma"; 応報, "consequence" in the the Buddhist conception of causality, commonly translated as "retribution") come of the karma (業, the actual term for "karma," or "the Nidana / En acquired of volitional acts") of humans.
悪魔は魔の流出による、人知無能の存在です。
Demons (悪魔) are as existences of human intellect and impotence (人知無能, a term invented by Nasu to act as an antonym to 全知全能, "omnipotent omniscience," to describe how restricted demons are compared to the Abrahamic God), come of the flowing forth of aberration (魔).
＠ Shizuki Soujuurou
? Aren't "the elimination of spirits" and "the exorcism of demons" the same?
＠ Caren-chan
That's incorrect. Evil spirits are as causal consequences come of the karma of humans.
Demons are as existences of human intellect and impotence, come of the flowing forth of aberration (魔).
The grudges that temporarily bind evil spirits to the manifest world have previously been described as something come of
karma (
業), and this business about "human intellect and impotence" previously came up in DDD.
To be more specific,
業 is in the context of Buddhism the
nidana /
pratyaya come of the volitional actions of a human (actions that are the consequences of conscious choices), where nidana / pratyaya are inherent ties of causality between existences. In plainer language, because of choices or actions performed by somebody or something, ties manifest.
In Nasu, these ties can apparently bind deceased spirits to the manifest world on a temporary basis.
The new information here is the last bit, where demons are stated to "come of the flowing forth of aberration (
魔)."
What this means is uncertain, but disregarding the nonsense in the Wikia regarding daemons and demons, recall that in
Colorful Moon Tsukihime, we get this definition for
魔:
①自然の法則にありながらその流れを歪めるモノとして必要とされなかった力を行使するモノ達。
① Existences that while being of the Laws of Nature distort its flow, and therefore exercise an unnecessary power.
②発生しているだけで歪みである。故に退魔は即座にこれを禁じる。
② [That which] exist as distortions merely by instantiation. Therefore, these are instantaneously forbidden by the Taima (退魔, lit. "suppression / repelling of ma").
Where "Taima" refers to those belonging to the organization in Japan that hunts things such as the Oni halfbloods.
Note that magecraft is
魔術, or "aberrant techniques"; and magic is
魔法, or "aberrant methods." In short, perhaps all of these things are by their naming implicitly related to
魔 in the sense of unnecessary powers that distort the flow of the Laws of Nature, or something along those lines.
In any case, here we find that demons come of "the flowing forth of ma," whatever that means.
ovg8 / You believes that this is a significant bit of lore, as we previously didn't have specific information about the processes by which demons come to formation.
Mahoyo Collab said:
＠ 久遠寺有珠・Kuonji Arisu
1997年の事よ。わたしは使い途のないプロイを処理する必要に迫られていたわ。
呪いの蓄積が屋敷の許容量を超えてしまって。
これ以上呪物を溜めるわけにはいかないけれど、人里に危険物を捨てる訳にはいかない。
それでこの山を選んだの。
最初は山小屋に泊まってプロイの解体作業をしていたのだけど、すぐ近くにこの旅館が見えたから。
場所を変えて、落ち着いてプロイを解体する事にしたわ。
実際、とてもうまくいった。
プロイを編んでいた呪力はきれいに解けて無力化できた。
その後、山を下りながら様々な場所に石の祠を作って、プロイたちを供養した。
でもーーー
屋敷に帰った後、道具箱を確認したら解体ツールが一つ、余っていた事に気がついた。
「何か一つ、解体せずに無くなったものがある」
「でもそれがなんであるか分からない」
＠ 久遠寺有珠・Kuonji Arisu
1997年の事よ。わたしは使い途のないプロイを処理する必要に迫られていたわ。
It was a matter [that occurred] in 1997. The necessity arose such that I was compelled to dispose of ploys without utility.
呪いの蓄積が屋敷の許容量を超えてしまって。
The accumulation of curses (呪い) had exceeded the permitted capacity of the mansion.
これ以上呪物を溜めるわけにはいかないけれど、人里に危険物を捨てる訳にはいかない。
There was no way that I could stockpile any additional cursed objects (呪物, properly, "fétiche"), and it wasn't permissible that I discard dangerous objects [in the vicinity of] civilization.
それでこの山を選んだの。
Therefore, I selected this mountain.
最初は山小屋に泊まってプロイの解体作業をしていたのだけど、すぐ近くにこの旅館が見えたから。場所を変えて、落ち着いてプロイを解体する事にしたわ。
Initially, I stayed in a cottage in the mountains [and there] executed the dismantlement of ploys, but on account that I glimpsed this hotel just nearby, [I decided to go for] a change of environment, relaxing [myself] while dismantling the ploys.
実際、とてもうまくいった。
In fact, things went extremely well.
プロイを編んでいた呪力はきれいに解けて無力化できた。
I cleanly unraveled the curse energy (呪力, lit. "strength / force / power of curses"; cf. 魔力, typically "thaumaturgical energy") from which the ploys were woven, successfully neutralizing (無力化, "rendering absent of strength") them.
その後、山を下りながら様々な場所に石の祠を作って、プロイたちを供養した。
Thereafter, descending the mountain, I built in various locations stone shrines [to serve as] memorials (供養, lit. "to present an offering to the nurturing of"; generally, "the act of performing a religious memorial to the deceased, or to supernatural entities") to the ploys.
でもーーー
However —
屋敷に帰った後、道具箱を確認したら解体ツールが一つ、余っていた事に気がついた。
Subsequent my return to the mansion, on inspecting my tool case, I noticed that one of my dismantlement remained.
「何か一つ、解体せずに無くなったものがある」
「Somehow, there was something that had gone missing without being dismantled.」
「でもそれがなんであるか分からない」
「However, I didn't know why that was.」
＠ Kuonji Arisu
It was a matter [that occurred] in 1997. The necessity arose such that I was compelled to dispose of ploys without utility.
The accumulation of curses had exceeded the permitted capacity of the mansion.
There was no way that I could stockpile any additional cursed objects, and it wasn't permissible that I discard dangerous objects [in the vicinity of] civilization.
Therefore, I selected this mountain.
Initially, I stayed in a cottage in the mountains [and there] executed the dismantlement of ploys, but on account that I glimpsed this hotel just nearby, [I decided to go for] a change of environment, relaxing [myself] while dismantling the ploys.
In fact, things went extremely well.
I cleanly unraveled the curse energy from which the ploys were woven, successfully neutralizing them.
Thereafter, descending the mountain, I built in various locations stone shrines [to serve as] memorials to the ploys.
However —
Subsequent my return to the mansion, on inspecting my tool case, I noticed that one of my dismantlement remained.
「Somehow, there was something that had gone missing without being dismantled.」
「However, I didn't know why that was.」
To summarize:
- Ploys explicitly embody curses (呪い) and are woven from 呪力 — lit. "strength / force / power of curses" — tentatively translated above as "curse energy"; though it might perhaps be more appropriate to think of this as "the power of curses."
Confer with the translation of 魔力 as "thaumaturgical energy."
- Arisu's mansion acts as a containment for the curses inherent to her ploys, but has a limited storage capacity, which when exceeded may result in a threat to humans. If such a circumstance arises, she's motivated to dispose of ploys that serve no utility.
- Per MEoDP lore, Arisu has no means of directly "breaking a curse." Therefore, in this event, it's explained that she "neutralizes" them, rendering them (relatively?) "powerless" by unweaving the 呪力 from which they're fabricated, and discarding of whatever's left away from civilization. The process she uses requires the expenditure (and loss or discarding) of a consumable dismantlement tool, and the subsequent construction of a stone shrine to serve as a grave or memorial.
TL;
DR - Demons come of "the flow of ma," and ploys are made of curses.
Unrelatedly:
This bit in TMDict isn't entirely correct:
TMDict on Excalibur said:
人々の"こうであってほしい"という想念が地上に蓄えられ、星の内部で結晶・精製された「最強の幻想」。
The strongest illusion (Last Phantasm), crystallized and refined from the wishes of humanity stored in the planet.
More properly:
The Strongest Fantasy, crystallized and refined within the Star, accumulating from the Surface the ideations of Men [what may be characterized as] "I desire that it be so."
It's not wishes. It's specifically ideations that can be characterized as "I desire that it be so."
Even if semantically, these two things don't look too different, a "wish" in Nasu terminology refers to a specific thing with a bunch of baggage. Therefore, specificity of language is necessary.
