Type Moon General
fallacies
Puyo Mage
Xufu in Ordeal Call I Epilogue, on the nature of Alter-Egos:
A continuation from this post.
The italic bits are apparently internal narration from Guda.
After the events of OC1, Guda comes across Xufu killing time in the dining hall, apparently summoned forth as a subject for a trial run of the Emergency Catalysis Response (緊急 励起 対応 ; 励起 , lit. "excitation") System, which at present time isn't detailed at any point in the game script.
Xufu explains that she's reading a paper that somehow turned up within the database, implied to have been written by Dust of Osiris. After more or less affirming the conclusions drawn in the passages previously translated here, she reiterates that Alter-Egos are "fragmentary" existences to which certain possibilities denied to "the original individual" are opened.
That is, regardless that Heroic Spirits are fundamentally unchanging records engraved to the Human Order and the Throne, with the purification of a manifested aspect at the exclusion of others, outcomes without the bounds of record come into possibility. This "purification" generally relates to escalation in the expression of a particular sentiment.
Xufu hypothesizes that the phenomenon by which the overflowing of a singular sentiment opens possibilities otherwise out of reach applies to humans as well.
Specifically, she posits that in the moment that a human engraves an incredible feat in the record of the Human Order, they attained a performance beyond the norm on account that they were driven by an potent sentiment.
To rephrase, a "snapshot" of a given human that isolates who they were within the moment they attained a feat normally without their reach likely expresses a purification to a particular sentiment.
Xufu believes that Alter-Egos may be an extension of this.
At this point, Guda hears a certain jazz song playing in the background of the dining hall, and wonders to herself if alike to Sabers wielding swords and Lancers wielding spears, Alter-Egos wield the strength of their sentiments.
With the dropping of the jazz reference, it becomes evident that perhaps in a Doylist context, the Paper Moon was so named to connote "a fabricated existence" of "make-believe," which potentially becomes "real" with invested sentiment.
Incidentally, Alter-Egos being "fabricated existences, empty on the inside" was something stated by Meltryllis in Grand Order CCC, during the disclosure that she misrepresented herself when stating that her memories were reinitialized as of contact with Guda:
It isn't clear as to the extent to which Guda recalls this event as of OC1, but her internal dialogue here suggests that she may remember something.
Removed of the context of this epilogue, I would observe that following Xufu's logic, Heroic Spirits come to manifestation as Servants generally express only a portion of the record upon the Throne, parred down to relatively greater purification within a singular "prime." No Servant can really be deemed "their normal self." The Li Shuwen that embodies the prime of his old age is not his entire being, but rather a snapshot of his existence, distilling a narrower representation of his person.
Ergo, in a broader sense, all Servants manifested to the Saint Graph of a discrete Class can on some level be regarded as "Alter-Egos-if-you-squint." By definition, the Saber aspect of a Heroic Spirit is "purified" to who they were when acting in accordance to the qualifications of a Saber.
Whereas we've so far been led to believe that being reenactments of record, Servants are in some capacity restricted from attaining outcomes without the boundaries of their history or legend, this "restriction" may in some way be a function of the extent to which the "completeness" of their representation of record as a Servant binds their agency.
Alter-Egos are sufficiently unbound that per the purity of the sentiment they express, they're capable of arriving at outcomes normally beyond their means.
The purification of sentiment and the unbinding from strictures are more or less the same process, with the ultimate consequence being that things existing as a matter of record aren't the end all and be all of a Servant's fate.
Though it's been asserted a number of times that "Servants are completed existences that cannot change," recent content authored by Jin Haganeya has featured a running thematic thread challenging this notion. I'll try to detail this in future posts.
TL;DR — It may not be the case that all Servants are concluded existences, incapable of varying from record. Rather, incompleteness and purity of sentiment potentially break the strictures binding a Servant to their past.
A continuation from this post.
Ordeal Call I - Epilogue said:
Ordeal Call I - Epilogue said:
Ordeal Call I - Epilogue said:
The italic bits are apparently internal narration from Guda.
After the events of OC1, Guda comes across Xufu killing time in the dining hall, apparently summoned forth as a subject for a trial run of the Emergency Catalysis Response (
Xufu explains that she's reading a paper that somehow turned up within the database, implied to have been written by Dust of Osiris. After more or less affirming the conclusions drawn in the passages previously translated here, she reiterates that Alter-Egos are "fragmentary" existences to which certain possibilities denied to "the original individual" are opened.
That is, regardless that Heroic Spirits are fundamentally unchanging records engraved to the Human Order and the Throne, with the purification of a manifested aspect at the exclusion of others, outcomes without the bounds of record come into possibility. This "purification" generally relates to escalation in the expression of a particular sentiment.
Xufu hypothesizes that the phenomenon by which the overflowing of a singular sentiment opens possibilities otherwise out of reach applies to humans as well.
Specifically, she posits that in the moment that a human engraves an incredible feat in the record of the Human Order, they attained a performance beyond the norm on account that they were driven by an potent sentiment.
To rephrase, a "snapshot" of a given human that isolates who they were within the moment they attained a feat normally without their reach likely expresses a purification to a particular sentiment.
Xufu believes that Alter-Egos may be an extension of this.
At this point, Guda hears a certain jazz song playing in the background of the dining hall, and wonders to herself if alike to Sabers wielding swords and Lancers wielding spears, Alter-Egos wield the strength of their sentiments.
With the dropping of the jazz reference, it becomes evident that perhaps in a Doylist context, the Paper Moon was so named to connote "a fabricated existence" of "make-believe," which potentially becomes "real" with invested sentiment.
Incidentally, Alter-Egos being "fabricated existences, empty on the inside" was something stated by Meltryllis in Grand Order CCC, during the disclosure that she misrepresented herself when stating that her memories were reinitialized as of contact with Guda:
Grand Order CCC said:
It isn't clear as to the extent to which Guda recalls this event as of OC1, but her internal dialogue here suggests that she may remember something.
Removed of the context of this epilogue, I would observe that following Xufu's logic, Heroic Spirits come to manifestation as Servants generally express only a portion of the record upon the Throne, parred down to relatively greater purification within a singular "prime." No Servant can really be deemed "their normal self." The Li Shuwen that embodies the prime of his old age is not his entire being, but rather a snapshot of his existence, distilling a narrower representation of his person.
Ergo, in a broader sense, all Servants manifested to the Saint Graph of a discrete Class can on some level be regarded as "Alter-Egos-if-you-squint." By definition, the Saber aspect of a Heroic Spirit is "purified" to who they were when acting in accordance to the qualifications of a Saber.
Whereas we've so far been led to believe that being reenactments of record, Servants are in some capacity restricted from attaining outcomes without the boundaries of their history or legend, this "restriction" may in some way be a function of the extent to which the "completeness" of their representation of record as a Servant binds their agency.
Alter-Egos are sufficiently unbound that per the purity of the sentiment they express, they're capable of arriving at outcomes normally beyond their means.
The purification of sentiment and the unbinding from strictures are more or less the same process, with the ultimate consequence being that things existing as a matter of record aren't the end all and be all of a Servant's fate.
Though it's been asserted a number of times that "Servants are completed existences that cannot change," recent content authored by Jin Haganeya has featured a running thematic thread challenging this notion. I'll try to detail this in future posts.
TL;DR — It may not be the case that all Servants are concluded existences, incapable of varying from record. Rather, incompleteness and purity of sentiment potentially break the strictures binding a Servant to their past.
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fallacies
Puyo Mage
Setanta in Jin Haganeya's Lilim-Harlot, on the agency of Servants:
Continuing from the previous post, a discussion of Servants as completed existences, and how it relates to the agency they exercise.
Arriving in the final area of the 5th Singularity in the Spiral Substantiation World (螺旋 証明 世界 ), Guda's party encounters a version of Scathach.
Setanta — who in fact isn't precisely Cu Chulainn in his youth, but an "arrangement" of elements and attributes from various points in his life, summoned to a Saber Saint Graph — greets Scathach, but receives in response a declaration that as he's ostensibly sided with Beast VI, she will slay him.
Setanta explains that he hasn't any intention to side with the Beast, and is present only in the capacity of acting as a bodyguard to Guda.
However, as Guda is at this point "the Contractor of the Beast," Scathach dismisses his claim as grounds to stay her hand.
Attempting again to communicate, Setanta explains that Guda is at present shouldering something even worse than "the Annihilation of the Human Order" (人理 消滅 ) — that if Guda's Chaldea were to fall, the entirety of the Greater History of Man could vanish.
In light of this, protecting Guda should be top priority.
Revealing that she does in fact comprehend the circumstances Guda is facing outside the context of the Spiral Substantiation World, Scathach again refuses to see things as Setanta asserts, asking him, "What of it?" as "It's just an end of the World."
Elaborating, she gives that the crisis Guda is facing is a trial for her and the inhabitants of her World — "nothing that ought to be shouldered by a Heroic Spirit — by the likes of a dream of the dead."
Guda's fate is "not for me to know," she says. "This is just the way of things for Servants."
That is, it isn't a Servant's place to dictate the fate of the humans alive in the current era.
Setanta concludes that the Scathach before him has arrived upon this stance precisely because she isn't the actual Scathach.
Rather, as it would normally be impossible for the real Scathach to become a Servant, he mentally classifies her as the same sort of existence as the things proliferating on the bottom floor of the Spiral Substantiation World — "merely a shadow."
Scathach replies that Setanta is the same.
The passion; the wrath; the killing intent that he presently exhibits are nothing but a distorted projection of the past, which threatens to defile the dreams / ideals of the living.
Fed up with Scathach's arguments, Setanta declares that unlike her, he's still a brat.
Questioning her claim that "what lies ahead for living humans isn't for Servants to know," and that "that's just the way of things for Servants," he asks her why it is that Heroic Spirits even surmount laws and bring forth miracles?
Why is it that Heroic Spirits would gather under a Master?
Setanta declares that if he's qualified only to be bound within the rationalities to which Servants / Heroic Spirits are subject, he hasn't any interest in becoming a Hero.
Hearing this, Scathach becomes fed up, and declares her intent to engage him in combat.
Scathach succumbs to her injuries, and expresses surprise that a Setanta that isn't yet Cu Chulainn would be capable of slaying her.
Giving that his future self is irrelevant, Setanta declares that his future belongs to himself alone; that someday, he'll prove that he can slay the real Scathach.
Approaching Guda after Scathach vanishes, Setanta gives that being a Servant feels weird.
Per what we've already heard from other Heroic Spirits with multiple aspects manifested as Servants, Setanta explains that though he's aware of the sort of life Cu Chulainn lived, and the fate that befell him, he feels like he comprehends none of it, specifically because he himself hasn't yet accomplished anything.
Hearing this, Draco remarks: "... a dream of the deceased speaks ofthe future , hm?"
Setanta replies that he doesn't think of himself as deceased. In the first place, the idea that he would be killed by somebody like Medb seems impossible to him.
To rephrase Setanta's response to Scathach in the first part, if it's the case that Servants haven't any say in the fate of the humans alive in the current era, in the first place, what meaning is there in a Servant contracting a Master, or going the extra mile to exceed limits at their Master's summons?
This is a rhetorical question that isn't directly addressed within the event scenario, but might in a broader context pose some implications regarding the meaning inherent to Servants being manifested with consciousness and free will, rather than just mindless slaves to their Masters.
Specifically, even that Servants "ought not to" have any say regarding the fates of the living, the fact that "the dreams of the deceased" can exercise agency at all might bear some fundamental purpose or meaning.
There's a few other bits in Lilim-Harlot relevant to Setanta's character arc, and the discussion of relevant themes, but in the interests of efficiency, let's move on to the conclusion:
Jin Haganeya also wrote the Samurai Remnant crossover event, Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou.
Yamato Takeru was prior to this scene stressing over the impact that reenactment of record inherently imposed upon a Servant's fate, as such a thing might prevent him from saving Yui Shousetsu from the Waxing Moon Ritual.
Picking up on this, Setanta offers some advice, giving that Takeru shouldn't be thinking dumb / boring things, such as "things already concluded cannot change."
Being as they — Servants — are here and now manifest, they ought to just do what they want.
Ergo, in pursuing actions important to them, a Servant ought not to be bogged down by doubts regarding whether their agency might be curbed or interfered with by bias toward reenactment of record.
We can infer from this the unstated implication that outcomes without the bounds of record might nevertheless fall within reach — perhaps conditional to sufficient commitment.
The above passage ends up being directly referenced during the event finale.
Continuing from the previous post, a discussion of Servants as completed existences, and how it relates to the agency they exercise.
Lilim-Harlot said:
Arriving in the final area of the 5th Singularity in the Spiral Substantiation World (
Setanta — who in fact isn't precisely Cu Chulainn in his youth, but an "arrangement" of elements and attributes from various points in his life, summoned to a Saber Saint Graph — greets Scathach, but receives in response a declaration that as he's ostensibly sided with Beast VI, she will slay him.
Setanta explains that he hasn't any intention to side with the Beast, and is present only in the capacity of acting as a bodyguard to Guda.
However, as Guda is at this point "the Contractor of the Beast," Scathach dismisses his claim as grounds to stay her hand.
Attempting again to communicate, Setanta explains that Guda is at present shouldering something even worse than "the Annihilation of the Human Order" (
In light of this, protecting Guda should be top priority.
Revealing that she does in fact comprehend the circumstances Guda is facing outside the context of the Spiral Substantiation World, Scathach again refuses to see things as Setanta asserts, asking him, "What of it?" as "It's just an end of the World."
Elaborating, she gives that the crisis Guda is facing is a trial for her and the inhabitants of her World — "nothing that ought to be shouldered by a Heroic Spirit — by the likes of a dream of the dead."
Guda's fate is "not for me to know," she says. "This is just the way of things for Servants."
That is, it isn't a Servant's place to dictate the fate of the humans alive in the current era.
Setanta concludes that the Scathach before him has arrived upon this stance precisely because she isn't the actual Scathach.
Rather, as it would normally be impossible for the real Scathach to become a Servant, he mentally classifies her as the same sort of existence as the things proliferating on the bottom floor of the Spiral Substantiation World — "merely a shadow."
Scathach replies that Setanta is the same.
The passion; the wrath; the killing intent that he presently exhibits are nothing but a distorted projection of the past, which threatens to defile the dreams / ideals of the living.
Fed up with Scathach's arguments, Setanta declares that unlike her, he's still a brat.
Questioning her claim that "what lies ahead for living humans isn't for Servants to know," and that "that's just the way of things for Servants," he asks her why it is that Heroic Spirits even surmount laws and bring forth miracles?
Why is it that Heroic Spirits would gather under a Master?
Setanta declares that if he's qualified only to be bound within the rationalities to which Servants / Heroic Spirits are subject, he hasn't any interest in becoming a Hero.
Hearing this, Scathach becomes fed up, and declares her intent to engage him in combat.
Lilim-Harlot said:
Scathach succumbs to her injuries, and expresses surprise that a Setanta that isn't yet Cu Chulainn would be capable of slaying her.
Giving that his future self is irrelevant, Setanta declares that his future belongs to himself alone; that someday, he'll prove that he can slay the real Scathach.
Approaching Guda after Scathach vanishes, Setanta gives that being a Servant feels weird.
Per what we've already heard from other Heroic Spirits with multiple aspects manifested as Servants, Setanta explains that though he's aware of the sort of life Cu Chulainn lived, and the fate that befell him, he feels like he comprehends none of it, specifically because he himself hasn't yet accomplished anything.
Hearing this, Draco remarks: "... a dream of the deceased speaks of
Setanta replies that he doesn't think of himself as deceased. In the first place, the idea that he would be killed by somebody like Medb seems impossible to him.
To rephrase Setanta's response to Scathach in the first part, if it's the case that Servants haven't any say in the fate of the humans alive in the current era, in the first place, what meaning is there in a Servant contracting a Master, or going the extra mile to exceed limits at their Master's summons?
This is a rhetorical question that isn't directly addressed within the event scenario, but might in a broader context pose some implications regarding the meaning inherent to Servants being manifested with consciousness and free will, rather than just mindless slaves to their Masters.
Specifically, even that Servants "ought not to" have any say regarding the fates of the living, the fact that "the dreams of the deceased" can exercise agency at all might bear some fundamental purpose or meaning.
There's a few other bits in Lilim-Harlot relevant to Setanta's character arc, and the discussion of relevant themes, but in the interests of efficiency, let's move on to the conclusion:
Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou said:
Jin Haganeya also wrote the Samurai Remnant crossover event, Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou.
Yamato Takeru was prior to this scene stressing over the impact that reenactment of record inherently imposed upon a Servant's fate, as such a thing might prevent him from saving Yui Shousetsu from the Waxing Moon Ritual.
Picking up on this, Setanta offers some advice, giving that Takeru shouldn't be thinking dumb / boring things, such as "things already concluded cannot change."
Being as they — Servants — are here and now manifest, they ought to just do what they want.
Ergo, in pursuing actions important to them, a Servant ought not to be bogged down by doubts regarding whether their agency might be curbed or interfered with by bias toward reenactment of record.
We can infer from this the unstated implication that outcomes without the bounds of record might nevertheless fall within reach — perhaps conditional to sufficient commitment.
The above passage ends up being directly referenced during the event finale.
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fallacies
Puyo Mage
The finale of Jin Haganeya's Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou, and finding meaning in the face of futility:
Continuing from the previous post, in the finale of Jin Haganeya's Samurai Remnant collaboration event, Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou, a discussion of "striving in the face of futility," partly in the context of discussing the agency that Servants wield despite being completed existences.
As context, the lead-up to the engagement against the Tree of Fantasy:
Yui Shousetsu was a homunculus hybrid derivative of Einzbern designs, created by Mori Souiken, who viewed humanity as fundamentally flawed and sinful, and therefore unbefitting of "the Kingdom of God."
Specifically, she was intended as a prototype to the "immaculate innocents absent of sin" that Mori deemed fit to inhabit the Kingdom; and simultaneously a mechanism that would strive to realize the Kingdom as a Paradise within the earthly realm via a repopulation of the Surface by self-proliferation.
Though it doesn't seem as if Yui herself was consciously aware of the entirety of Mori's plans, she was driven to pursue similar goals both consciously and unconsciously.
Thus, during Samurai Remnant, she sought the Eigetsu / Waxing Moon for the purpose of bringing forth a peaceful utopia absent of class conflict.
In the backstory of the collaboration event, the Count made use of the fact that the Yui Shousetsu that had participated in the Ritual of the Waxing Moon was recorded to the Human Order as a Heroic Spirit, and thus bore certain attributes that had been sublimated and escalated to greater potency as Noble Phantasms — inclusive of the elements intended to realize the ultimate plans of Mori Souiken.
Merging Yui with a Tree of Fantasy, the Count jury rigged it to function as terraformation system that would eventually repopulate the Surface with clones of Yui, bringing about Mori Souiken's Kingdom Come.
However, as this was all just a game to him, and nothing that he truly intended to take seriously, he entrusted the completion of the ritual to Ushi-Gozen, before going forth to prepare "the next stage."
As clarification, note that the Tree of Fantasy is here functionally expression of Yui Shousetsu's Noble Phantasm,五蘊 盛苦 ・ 夢幻 泡影 — "The Five Skandhas Brim of Suffering ・ Phantasmagoric Transience."
The five skandhas (五蘊 ) are in the context of Buddhism elements of the mortal experience or state of being through which desire is ascribed:
That being the case, "the Five Skandhas Brim of Suffering" refers to the circumstance whereby suffering is received by a human via the five skandhas.
The second half of the Noble Phantasm's name —夢幻 泡影 — translates as a list of transient things: dreams ( 夢 ), illusions ( 幻 ), bubbles ( 泡 ), and shadows ( 影 ).
The sequence of the 4 characters are a Buddhist metaphor for the transience of life, but independently,夢幻 refers to fantasy or something phantasmagorical; and 泡影 refers to "the shadows of bubbles," whereas bubbles are already transient existences, but the shadows of bubbles are even moreso.
Though Ushi-Gozen describes五蘊 盛苦 ・ 夢幻 泡影 as a Noble Phantasm that belongs to Yui Shousetsu, it's more accurate to describe the form that it assumes in Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou as the sublimation of a thaumaturgical mechanism incorporated into Yui by Mori Souiken, which activates irrelevant of Yui's conscious volition, escalated in its standing on account of becoming a Noble Phantasm.
Perhaps it could actually be considered the Noble Phantasm of Mori Souiken?
As to why it is that Mori Souiken, a Kirishitan, developed something whose True Name is couched in the use of Buddhist terminology — presumably, it's an extension of the Kirishitan practice of concealing Christian faith in the trappings of Japanese culture and Buddhism?
Moving on, we enter the first half of the event finale:
Faced with the imminent completion of the Tree of Fantasy, da Vinci calls for Guda's party to act quickly, as the Eigetsu might soon come to proliferate across the World.
As Yamato Takeru previously stated that he could sever the Tree, Iori urges him to do so.
However, Takeru here hesitates, voicing his desire to save Yui Shousetsu.
"This is weakness," he says. "Merely an excess."
If the terminology sounds familiar, it's because he's couching his desire in the word choice Iori utilized in his monologue when training for the Fire Stance in Samurai Remnant:
For comparison, the North American localization:
Incidentally, "Samurai Remnant" could maybe be rendered in Japanese as侍 の 余分 — "the excess of a samurai."
Subsequent this scene in Entreat the Darkness, it's implied that what Iori cut away here might've been his "kindness."
Returning to the prior passage, if Takeru is to prioritize the salvation of the World, he ought to simply sever the Tree.
Saving Yui Shousetsu seems by this point a futile task that he shouldn't engage in, given that calamity is imminent.
Thus, in the same way that "kindness" was "excess / weakness" to Iori in Entreat the Darkness, saving Yui is at this point something extraneous, which in utilitarian terms shouldn't be something Takeru ought to engage in.
The use of this terminology evokes a silence from Iori, possibly on account that he recognizes himself as the original source.
Here, Rogue Ruler appears, dismissing Takeru's desire to save Yui as meaningless, as the Yui entrapped by the Eigetsu isn't the Yui that Takeru is acquainted with.
Iori presumes that Rogue Ruler is saying that she simply can't be saved, but Rogue Ruler clarifies, saying that he's speaking about something more fundamental.
Being deceased, Servants are concluded existences no longer capable of changing.
Thus, if Yui Shousetsu were to be summoned again in a different context, even absent of any background knowledge on the circumstances behind the present event, it's inevitable that she would act toward the same outcome.
Therefore, he says, it's absent of any meaning at all.
Guda and Mashu reply:
As further context, several times prior, when Guda was mistaken for a Master in the Eigetsu no Gi, she was approached regarding her "wish" upon the Eigetsu, but failed to provide an answer.
She likewise doesn't state it outright here, but Mashu does — or at least frames Guda's answer as her wish:
That even if something is over; even that nothing remains, meaning exists in taking action in the face of apparent futility.
This lines up with Nemo's motives during the 7 days 8 years Snow Carol event, and is perhaps the most explicit statement of motive that we've gotten from Guda to date.
In abstract, "striving against futility, where failure is already a decided matter" is one of the running themes of Cosmos in the Lostbelt.
It's what Novum Chaldea has been doing this entire time, fighting their way through the Lostbelts, even though their World was to the best of their knowledge already gone and concluded; even though things were already over, and their loss was apparently confirmed.
Hearing this, Takeru is reminded of the conversation he had with Setanta earlier, which I translated in the previous post:
Setanta's challenge against the notion that "completed existences cannot change" inspires Takeru to declare that even if the sentiment he feels is nothing more than excess, it's a sentiment embraced by the him that is "here and now present."
To reiterate, "a Servant ought not to be bogged down by doubts regarding whether their agency might be curbed or interfered with by bias toward reenactment of record," as per the conclusions he's implied to have reached in Lilim-Harlot, even if Servants are merely expressions of engraved record with a bias toward the reenactment of circumstances already established, there must be some meaning in the fact that they can assent to a summons and consciously commit to the decision to go above and beyond on behalf of their Master.
On hearing Takeru's declaration, Iori gives that his wish commits to a path that befits a human, and that he'll therefore accompany him in this endeavor.
Without knowledge of Samurai Remnant, this sounds akin to a "you have my axe" sort of thing per Lord of the Rings; but in context, it's a statement of intent that fundamentally goes against the nature of the Iori from Entreat the Darkness.
There, it's revealed that he only ever pretended to abide by "the Path of Man" to the purpose of maintaining his everyday life in the peacetime of Edo, out of concern for his sister.
Since boyhood, however, the sole objective that he held within his heart was to fight — to further his skills as a swordsman.
To that end, if he's so capable — sufficiently unbound from the things tying him down, as by the Ritual of the Waxing Moon — he'd be happy to turn his back upon "the Path of Man," and take up "the Path of the Shura."
Affirming "the Path of Man" was in short something the Iori of Samurai Remnant only committed to in falsehood — but here, Servant Iori is apparently choosing to affirm it in truth?
Determining that Takeru, Guda, and Iori have arrived upon an answer, Rogue Ruler doesn't quite take back his statement that their intended actions are futile, but opens a path to allow that they attempt to save Yui.
Revealing himself as King Ashoka, he utilizes the Noble Phantasm that he shares with Saver to halt the Tree of Fantasy's realization of Mori Souiken's Kingdom Come.
For reference, Last Encore's World / Word entry on the Noble Phantasm:
And not my translation, but Extra Material:
As further context, the term Chakravartin is in Sanskrit a title that means "the king of the turning wheel," historically associated with Ashoka the Great, here manifest as Rogue Ruler.
This is rendered in East Asian Buddhism as転輪 聖王 — "the Holy King of the Turning Wheel."
Uttered by Ashoka, the mantra, "Namaḥ samanta buddhānāṃ, Bhaḥ," is apparently an invocation of the name of the Buddha — or more specifically, of釈迦 如来 , who is in the context of Shingon Buddhism designated as a Nyorai .
The meaning of the mantra in Sanskrit is per JP Wikipedia, "Devotion in prayer to all Buddhas , Bhaḥ," where "Bhaḥ" is the initial or "seed syllable" of Bhagavat , a title associated with the Buddha.
That is to say, the Noble Phantasm that Ashoka shares with Saver is also a title ascribed to Ashoka himself, but the incantation / mantra that he uses for it is an invocation of Saver.
da Vinci names him as a protector of the Dharma — ergo, a "dharmapāla" — and identifies the Chakravartin as a大宝具 — a "Grand Noble Phantasm."
This term has appeared in the game scenario on only a few prior occasions, generally to refer to Kintoki's摂津 式 大 具足 , and once to refer to Altera's Sword of Mars.
In FGO, the title "dharmapāla" was previously self-proclaimed by Caster Shuten, who referred to herself as a護法 少女 — a 少女 who 護法 .
Somehow, this term was misrendered in the North American localization as護法 少女 , perhaps on account that the 法 in 護法 was mistaken for the 法 in 魔法 , or "Magic."
Here, Ashoka states, "Fear not. I am here."
Unalike to the Enlightened One (覚者 ), he says, he hasn't attained Awareness , but protecting humans is within his capability.
His objective in coming to manifestation within this Singularity was to the purpose assessing / ascertaining the nature of the souls entrapped by the Eigetsu.
Specifically, he judges that the matter that he ought to be ascertaining is what lies at the outcome of the answer attained by Guda and her party.
To this end, he gives that the primary existence of Yui Shousetsu is entrapped within the Eigetsu, and urges Guda and party to "proceed, and take her hand," saying:
This is specifically a reference to a conversation he had with Guda during the Digression of their first encounter:
While it's hard to say that this is specifically Clairvoyance, note that in Garden of Avalon, Merlin — whose Clairvoyance can only see the present — is able to provide to Artoria a glimpse of the Battle of Camlann.
This is on account that he's apparently capable of doing something along the lines of tracing out the course of Nidana / Karma "extant within the current World" to their outcomes, potentially to view the future, regardless that his Clairvoyance doesn't cover that.
Something similar may be occurring here, with Ashoka tracing a perception of the coloration of Guda's soul to the course of events by which that color came to be?
Incidentally, the Hells named are as follows:
I suppose that the Inn of the Sparrows doesn't count as a proper Hell?
In any case, connecting the two scenes, the "wish" that Ashoka acknowledges is the one that specifically belongs to Guda, rather than Takeru — to paraphrase Mashu, a desire "to substantiate that there exists meaning in striving in the face of futility."
Informed by his statements during the earlier digression, Ashoka is asking that Guda makes use of this wish of hers as a guiding light as she advances unto Hell.
Even at the bottom of Naraka (奈落 ), he says, "there yet exists a light that penetrates."
Given that this scene is at the very end of the event, right before things are about to be resolved, when he invokes the term Hell, it doesn't seem as if he's referring to this singularity in particular.
Ergo, the Hell to which Guda is advancing is whatever follows Ordeal Call I — or more generally, the rest of the main scenario?
TL;DR —
Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou has Guda provide one of the clearest statements of her underlying motive as of Cosmos in the Lostbelt — that she wishes to substantiate the notion that there exists meaning in striving in the face of certain futility.
This coincides with a running theme in Jin Haganeya's contributions to FGO thus far, where he challenges the notion that Servants are incapable of overcoming their nature reenactments of record.
Continuing from the previous post, in the finale of Jin Haganeya's Samurai Remnant collaboration event, Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou, a discussion of "striving in the face of futility," partly in the context of discussing the agency that Servants wield despite being completed existences.
As context, the lead-up to the engagement against the Tree of Fantasy:
Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou said:
Yui Shousetsu was a homunculus hybrid derivative of Einzbern designs, created by Mori Souiken, who viewed humanity as fundamentally flawed and sinful, and therefore unbefitting of "the Kingdom of God."
Specifically, she was intended as a prototype to the "immaculate innocents absent of sin" that Mori deemed fit to inhabit the Kingdom; and simultaneously a mechanism that would strive to realize the Kingdom as a Paradise within the earthly realm via a repopulation of the Surface by self-proliferation.
Though it doesn't seem as if Yui herself was consciously aware of the entirety of Mori's plans, she was driven to pursue similar goals both consciously and unconsciously.
Thus, during Samurai Remnant, she sought the Eigetsu / Waxing Moon for the purpose of bringing forth a peaceful utopia absent of class conflict.
In the backstory of the collaboration event, the Count made use of the fact that the Yui Shousetsu that had participated in the Ritual of the Waxing Moon was recorded to the Human Order as a Heroic Spirit, and thus bore certain attributes that had been sublimated and escalated to greater potency as Noble Phantasms — inclusive of the elements intended to realize the ultimate plans of Mori Souiken.
Merging Yui with a Tree of Fantasy, the Count jury rigged it to function as terraformation system that would eventually repopulate the Surface with clones of Yui, bringing about Mori Souiken's Kingdom Come.
However, as this was all just a game to him, and nothing that he truly intended to take seriously, he entrusted the completion of the ritual to Ushi-Gozen, before going forth to prepare "the next stage."
As clarification, note that the Tree of Fantasy is here functionally expression of Yui Shousetsu's Noble Phantasm,
The five skandhas (
- flesh or physical form
- sensory experience, derived of flesh
- apprehension of gestalts perceived through sensation
- established responses to object associations triggered by apprehended gestalts
- the consciousness, which qualifies object associations
That being the case, "the Five Skandhas Brim of Suffering" refers to the circumstance whereby suffering is received by a human via the five skandhas.
The second half of the Noble Phantasm's name —
The sequence of the 4 characters are a Buddhist metaphor for the transience of life, but independently,
Though Ushi-Gozen describes
Perhaps it could actually be considered the Noble Phantasm of Mori Souiken?
As to why it is that Mori Souiken, a Kirishitan, developed something whose True Name is couched in the use of Buddhist terminology — presumably, it's an extension of the Kirishitan practice of concealing Christian faith in the trappings of Japanese culture and Buddhism?
Moving on, we enter the first half of the event finale:
Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou said:
Faced with the imminent completion of the Tree of Fantasy, da Vinci calls for Guda's party to act quickly, as the Eigetsu might soon come to proliferate across the World.
As Yamato Takeru previously stated that he could sever the Tree, Iori urges him to do so.
However, Takeru here hesitates, voicing his desire to save Yui Shousetsu.
"This is weakness," he says. "Merely an excess."
If the terminology sounds familiar, it's because he's couching his desire in the word choice Iori utilized in his monologue when training for the Fire Stance in Samurai Remnant:
Samurai Remnant - JP said:
For comparison, the North American localization:
Samurai Remnant - EN Localization said:
Incidentally, "Samurai Remnant" could maybe be rendered in Japanese as
Subsequent this scene in Entreat the Darkness, it's implied that what Iori cut away here might've been his "kindness."
Returning to the prior passage, if Takeru is to prioritize the salvation of the World, he ought to simply sever the Tree.
Saving Yui Shousetsu seems by this point a futile task that he shouldn't engage in, given that calamity is imminent.
Thus, in the same way that "kindness" was "excess / weakness" to Iori in Entreat the Darkness, saving Yui is at this point something extraneous, which in utilitarian terms shouldn't be something Takeru ought to engage in.
The use of this terminology evokes a silence from Iori, possibly on account that he recognizes himself as the original source.
Here, Rogue Ruler appears, dismissing Takeru's desire to save Yui as meaningless, as the Yui entrapped by the Eigetsu isn't the Yui that Takeru is acquainted with.
Iori presumes that Rogue Ruler is saying that she simply can't be saved, but Rogue Ruler clarifies, saying that he's speaking about something more fundamental.
Being deceased, Servants are concluded existences no longer capable of changing.
Thus, if Yui Shousetsu were to be summoned again in a different context, even absent of any background knowledge on the circumstances behind the present event, it's inevitable that she would act toward the same outcome.
Therefore, he says, it's absent of any meaning at all.
Guda and Mashu reply:
As further context, several times prior, when Guda was mistaken for a Master in the Eigetsu no Gi, she was approached regarding her "wish" upon the Eigetsu, but failed to provide an answer.
She likewise doesn't state it outright here, but Mashu does — or at least frames Guda's answer as her wish:
That even if something is over; even that nothing remains, meaning exists in taking action in the face of apparent futility.
This lines up with Nemo's motives during the 7 days 8 years Snow Carol event, and is perhaps the most explicit statement of motive that we've gotten from Guda to date.
In abstract, "striving against futility, where failure is already a decided matter" is one of the running themes of Cosmos in the Lostbelt.
It's what Novum Chaldea has been doing this entire time, fighting their way through the Lostbelts, even though their World was to the best of their knowledge already gone and concluded; even though things were already over, and their loss was apparently confirmed.
Hearing this, Takeru is reminded of the conversation he had with Setanta earlier, which I translated in the previous post:
Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou said:
Setanta's challenge against the notion that "completed existences cannot change" inspires Takeru to declare that even if the sentiment he feels is nothing more than excess, it's a sentiment embraced by the him that is "here and now present."
To reiterate, "a Servant ought not to be bogged down by doubts regarding whether their agency might be curbed or interfered with by bias toward reenactment of record," as per the conclusions he's implied to have reached in Lilim-Harlot, even if Servants are merely expressions of engraved record with a bias toward the reenactment of circumstances already established, there must be some meaning in the fact that they can assent to a summons and consciously commit to the decision to go above and beyond on behalf of their Master.
On hearing Takeru's declaration, Iori gives that his wish commits to a path that befits a human, and that he'll therefore accompany him in this endeavor.
Without knowledge of Samurai Remnant, this sounds akin to a "you have my axe" sort of thing per Lord of the Rings; but in context, it's a statement of intent that fundamentally goes against the nature of the Iori from Entreat the Darkness.
There, it's revealed that he only ever pretended to abide by "the Path of Man" to the purpose of maintaining his everyday life in the peacetime of Edo, out of concern for his sister.
Since boyhood, however, the sole objective that he held within his heart was to fight — to further his skills as a swordsman.
To that end, if he's so capable — sufficiently unbound from the things tying him down, as by the Ritual of the Waxing Moon — he'd be happy to turn his back upon "the Path of Man," and take up "the Path of the Shura."
Affirming "the Path of Man" was in short something the Iori of Samurai Remnant only committed to in falsehood — but here, Servant Iori is apparently choosing to affirm it in truth?
Determining that Takeru, Guda, and Iori have arrived upon an answer, Rogue Ruler doesn't quite take back his statement that their intended actions are futile, but opens a path to allow that they attempt to save Yui.
Revealing himself as King Ashoka, he utilizes the Noble Phantasm that he shares with Saver to halt the Tree of Fantasy's realization of Mori Souiken's Kingdom Come.
For reference, Last Encore's World / Word entry on the Noble Phantasm:
Last Encore - World / Word said:
And not my translation, but Extra Material:
Extra Material said:
As further context, the term Chakravartin is in Sanskrit a title that means "the king of the turning wheel," historically associated with Ashoka the Great, here manifest as Rogue Ruler.
This is rendered in East Asian Buddhism as
Uttered by Ashoka, the mantra, "Namaḥ samanta buddhānāṃ, Bhaḥ," is apparently an invocation of the name of the Buddha — or more specifically, of
The meaning of the mantra in Sanskrit is per JP Wikipedia, "
That is to say, the Noble Phantasm that Ashoka shares with Saver is also a title ascribed to Ashoka himself, but the incantation / mantra that he uses for it is an invocation of Saver.
da Vinci names him as a protector of the Dharma — ergo, a "dharmapāla" — and identifies the Chakravartin as a
This term has appeared in the game scenario on only a few prior occasions, generally to refer to Kintoki's
In FGO, the title "dharmapāla" was previously self-proclaimed by Caster Shuten, who referred to herself as a
Somehow, this term was misrendered in the North American localization as
Here, Ashoka states, "Fear not. I am here."
Unalike to the Enlightened One (
His objective in coming to manifestation within this Singularity was to the purpose assessing / ascertaining the nature of the souls entrapped by the Eigetsu.
Specifically, he judges that the matter that he ought to be ascertaining is what lies at the outcome of the answer attained by Guda and her party.
To this end, he gives that the primary existence of Yui Shousetsu is entrapped within the Eigetsu, and urges Guda and party to "proceed, and take her hand," saying:
This is specifically a reference to a conversation he had with Guda during the Digression of their first encounter:
Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou said:
While it's hard to say that this is specifically Clairvoyance, note that in Garden of Avalon, Merlin — whose Clairvoyance can only see the present — is able to provide to Artoria a glimpse of the Battle of Camlann.
This is on account that he's apparently capable of doing something along the lines of tracing out the course of Nidana / Karma "extant within the current World" to their outcomes, potentially to view the future, regardless that his Clairvoyance doesn't cover that.
Something similar may be occurring here, with Ashoka tracing a perception of the coloration of Guda's soul to the course of events by which that color came to be?
Incidentally, the Hells named are as follows:
- a Hell of souls, built by Men - Dantes' Prison Tower
- a Hell ancient and dark - Ereshkigal's Underworld
- a Hell wherein a villain laughed in mockery - Heian-Kyo
- a Hell whose hollow penetrated the earth - LB7
I suppose that the Inn of the Sparrows doesn't count as a proper Hell?
In any case, connecting the two scenes, the "wish" that Ashoka acknowledges is the one that specifically belongs to Guda, rather than Takeru — to paraphrase Mashu, a desire "to substantiate that there exists meaning in striving in the face of futility."
Informed by his statements during the earlier digression, Ashoka is asking that Guda makes use of this wish of hers as a guiding light as she advances unto Hell.
Even at the bottom of Naraka (
Given that this scene is at the very end of the event, right before things are about to be resolved, when he invokes the term Hell, it doesn't seem as if he's referring to this singularity in particular.
Ergo, the Hell to which Guda is advancing is whatever follows Ordeal Call I — or more generally, the rest of the main scenario?
TL;DR —
Eigetsu Kenpuu-Chou has Guda provide one of the clearest statements of her underlying motive as of Cosmos in the Lostbelt — that she wishes to substantiate the notion that there exists meaning in striving in the face of certain futility.
This coincides with a running theme in Jin Haganeya's contributions to FGO thus far, where he challenges the notion that Servants are incapable of overcoming their nature reenactments of record.
Vanargand
So tired.....
Well just the fact that the records themselves are updated whenever a servant suffers a great change already alludes to that
Meme answer- Medb having Claivoyance (Cheese) EX
Serious answer- Amakusa, sure its because the Amakusa everyone knows is from Apocrypha, but it was still given an in-setting reason for why he is a gyaru
Meme answer- Medb having Claivoyance (Cheese) EX
Serious answer- Amakusa, sure its because the Amakusa everyone knows is from Apocrypha, but it was still given an in-setting reason for why he is a gyaru
The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
Among other reasons? Because physically carrying pointy sticks around is an affair that can get very fiddly very quickly.
Couldn't they just use reinforcement to change the shape to make it more portable?
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Remember that Archer's fighting style when he's fighting Cú, someone superior to him in both physical capabilities and skill, is to rely on the fact that he can be disarmed and rearm himself in an instant without any issue.
Ultimately, projecting a dozen Noble Phantasms and converting them to a portable size is probably a lot more trouble than it's worth compared to just relying on their old reliables and paying the cost if they need something specific in the moment.
What about sniping He can now just pull out that Noble Phantasm without a need of magical energy?
Specific at that time? Just create that object at that moment. I don't see how it would affect what they had previously created.
Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
- -
While Projecting them only has the basic cost of Projection, True Name Release and Broken Phantasm doesn't. Archer's Default Strategies ultimately aren't helped much by Here's One I Made Earlier; for example, he still has to charge up each Hrunting he spams, and ones he made earlier can't be projected into position to save a fraction of time.
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Archer's sniping tends to take some time, and he doesn't even really like doing it in the first place. Similarly, in situations where he has to snipe, he's often using Caladbolg II as a Broken Phantasm which takes time and extra energy anyway, or he's using Hrunting in which case we know he projects multiple copies as per his battle with Saber in Hollow Ataraxia.
Stepping away from in-universe stuff for a minute, it also effectively changes nothing from a writing perspective. Archer's magical energy isn't a defined thing you need to keep track of constantly, as long as you get the broad strokes of it right. Archer projecting a Noble Phantasm right away in the moment or Archer pulling out a Noble Phantasm he projected two days ago and kept in a quiver or something are the exact same thing in terms of actually writing the story—one is just frankly easier than the other, since you don't have to draw Archer with a quiver with a bunch of different Noble Phantasms in it, and you don't have to explain why Archer isn't constantly projecting Noble Phantasms and turning them into pocket-sized carry-ons.
Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
- -
...No it doesn't? Even ignoring that the savings are logically marginal compared to costs of blowing up a magic sword, he has to pay the cost of projecting one(1) sword either way. And frankly, Squirt's comment on the narrative uselessness of pre-projection for Archer are probably more relevant than optimisation for the spherical Servant in a vacuum.
what do you mean by this?
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There's situations where projecting stuff ahead of time could be hax, but they're pretty idiosyncratic - like, if he was teaming up with somebody who can army spam like Hundred Face or Iskander, or a bunch of relative normies like cops or clock tower mooks, projecting stuff ahead of time to equip them with hax weaponry they don't nomally have could be a major force multiplier.
If he's on his own though, not so much.
If he's on his own though, not so much.
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Caladbolg on Herc as well.
The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
The man really likes getting up close and personal for the thrill of it but he knows in his heart that sniping is his best tool.
Still, I think it's a good idea to create a weapon before rather than create a weapon at that moment. Such as in situations where it is necessary to save magic energy like when he didn't have a master in UBW after defeating Caster if he created a lot of weapon before he defeated Caster he now doesn't need magical energy to project a weapon he only needs to use reinforcement to change the weapon shape to original form. Reinforcement uses lower magical energy than projection, right?
all fictions
I hate you! (it's not against the rules!)
- Location
- Mons Regius
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I still don't get why you think it's a good idea over just doing it normally when it raises so much questions. Like, where would he even put these weapons then? And even if there is a place to put them, a shed or something, doesn't he have to go back to get them anyway? And supposing he does, what if he faces a situation requiring another weapon but he doesn't have it on hand, it's back at the storage, wherever it is? Does he now carry a duffelbag with him or something?
At this point, just projecting like he does is way less of a headache.
At this point, just projecting like he does is way less of a headache.
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
As a point of order, I think EMIYA uses Alteration to change the shapes of certain Noble Phantasms, and even then it's not like he's ever displayed the ability to shrink them down to the point that he can carry dozens unless you want him carrying around a bag or quiver - and if he's now gotta carry around a bag and quiver, he has to remain manifested and can't use spiritual form because it's not like the other shit he makes goes into spirit form with him.
Like, at this point even making the assumption that EMIYA can alter the shapes and sizes of Noble Phantasms to the point that he can carry around a dozen or more he's projected prior - without any knowledge of what he might face, so he might just have made a bunch of useless weapons ahead of time since using their True Name or a Broken Phantasm would still require more magical energy - we're left with an EMIYA that might be eating up more magical energy anyway because he has to remain manifested to haul around all his stuff. That's also setting aside the point I made about the writing, where it doesn't matter at all to the story if EMIYA carries around his weapons or projects them immediately, and projecting them is a cleaner, neater solution.
It's just not really viable for a bunch of reasons if you want to look at it in-universe, and it's not valuable for writing out of universe unless you're trying to turn EMIYA into meme Batman with prep-time.
all fictions
I hate you! (it's not against the rules!)
- Location
- Mons Regius
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You know what we don't talk about often on here? Himuro no Tenchi, or Fate/school life.
It's a long-running spinoff! It has been around since 2006! Yes, it has never been translated either officially or "officially", so how would anyone know, but that's no excuse!
Thankfully, Comun on the Beast Lair forums explained what was up with HimuTen, because a lot of it is, for some unfathomable reason, relevant to Fate/strange Fake's timeline.
I'm sure this comedic slice-of-life manga doesn't have a very strange lore:
And now you know why FsF has odd details such as Flat being an acquaintance of the real Ayaka Sajou. Among other things.
It's a long-running spinoff! It has been around since 2006! Yes, it has never been translated either officially or "officially", so how would anyone know, but that's no excuse!
Thankfully, Comun on the Beast Lair forums explained what was up with HimuTen, because a lot of it is, for some unfathomable reason, relevant to Fate/strange Fake's timeline.
I'm sure this comedic slice-of-life manga doesn't have a very strange lore:
HimuTen said:
Addendum said:
And now you know why FsF has odd details such as Flat being an acquaintance of the real Ayaka Sajou. Among other things.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Hi! I'm relatively new to the franchise and have a couple questions and figured this would be a good place to ask.
1. What are Divine Words? What can they do and what can't they do?
2. Same as the first question, but Primordial Runes.
1. What are Divine Words? What can they do and what can't they do?
2. Same as the first question, but Primordial Runes.
The quickest summation would be that Primordial Runes and Divine Words are both systems of magecraft from the Age of Gods.
Divine Words allow magecraft to be done much more efficiently, as it directly interfaces with the World instead of via the medium of a Foundation.
Primordial Runes are runes derived directly from Odin, instead of Modern Runes which are recreations of those.
There's no easy way to say what they can do, since they're broader systems, not discrete abilities - Medea can use Divine Words to perform extremely powerful magecraft in less than a second, while Runes can be used to do things like inscribe curses of death (Sigurdtr, LB2), or alter the Saint Graphs of Servants (Scathach).
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