Randomly, a correction of an old (partial) translation as to clarify Fujino's status as a Servant:
In-Game Material - Asagami Fujino said:
藤乃のいた時代は人理焼却によって灰になった。
彼女も同様に燃え尽きたが、
その特異性を世界の抑止力は見逃さなかった。
アラヤ識は人理焼却を覆す為の戦力の一つとして彼女の異能を採用し、
彼女は仮初めのサーヴァントとしてカルデアに召喚される事になった。
彼女にとって今の自分は『夢』にすぎない。
式同様、燃え尽きる直前に見ている、人理焼却を覆さなければ消えるだけの一夜の幻だ。
By way of the Incineration of the Human Order, the era that Fujino existed within has become as ashes.
Whereas she was likewise consumed by flames,
the Counter Force of the World did not overlook her peculiarity (特異性, tokuisei).
To the end of overturning the Incineration, Alaya-Shiki (アラヤ識) engaged her abberant power (異能, inou) as an asset for combat,
permitting that she be summoned by Chaldea as a provisional Servant.
To her, herself as of present is little more than a 『dream』;
[as in the case of] Shiki, an illusion of a single night witnessed immediately prior consumption unto flame, which can only vanish should the Incineration of the Human Order not be overturned.
For comparison:
Wikia said:
The period when Fujino was turned to ashes by the Incineration of the Human Order.
She was burned to cinders just the same, but the world's Counter Force did not turn a blind eye to that.
The consciousness of Alaya, for the sake of reversing the Incineration of the Human Order, recruited the power of the girl as war potential, and she was summoned to Chaldea as a temporary Servant.
Regarding her current self, she is nothing more than a 『dream』. Similar to Shiki, observed just before being reduced to cinders, she's just an illusion of a single night that will disappear if the Incineration of the Human Order is overturned.
The JP gives:

人理焼却を覆さなければ消えるだけの一夜の幻だ。​
[ambiguous object] [is] an illusion of a single night (一夜の幻) [that can] only vanish (消えるだけ) if the Incineration of the Human Order is not overturned (人理焼却を覆さなければ)​

The "ambiguous object" obviously resolves as the 『dream』 referred to in the preceding sentence.
覆さなければ (kutsugaesa-nakereba) renders as "if not overturned."
This is the negative ~ば (-ba) Conditional Form of the verb 覆す (kutsugaesu), or "to overturn."
For comparison, 覆せば (kutsugaeseba) is the Conditional Form of 覆す, which renders as "if overturned."
消える (kieru) is "vanish"; だけ (dake) is "just / only." 消えるだけの (kieru dake no) is "[can] only vanish" as a descriptor to a subsequent noun.

However, the Wikia renders the above as, "she's just an illusion of a single night that will disappear if the Incineration of the Human Order is overturned." This ignores the negative of 覆さなければ; and misidentifies the target of だけ — rendering it as "just." If the association of だけ were correct, and the negative were correctly applied, the Wikia would render it as, "she's an illusion of a single night that will only disappear if the Incineration of the Human Order is not overturned."

As a further note, the preceding part of this sentence is:

式同様、燃え尽きる直前に見ている、​
the same as (同様) Shiki (式), [ambiguous object] seen (見ている) [by] [ambiguous subject] as of (に) immediately prior (直前) consumption to flame (燃え尽きる)​

Notably, the object in the second clause is here ambiguous, but resolves per the clause subsequent (covered earlier) as the 『dream』 of the preceding sentence. The ambiguous object would therefore resolve as Fujino herself. Ergo, "to Fujino, the Fujino of the present is a 『dream』; an illusion of a single night." Where the Wikia says, ""she's just an illusion of a single night," it would more correctly be "the dream is just an illusion of a single night."

The overall implication here isn't that "Asagami Fujino can only be summoned in the context of the Incineration." It's more like, "If the Incineration isn't resolved, the Asagami Fujino that is at present a Servant would be (with regard to the original living human known as Asagami Fujino) as a dream / illusion of a single night that can only vanish."
 
Last edited:
Any of the Shikis is theoretically capable of killing a Servant, yes.

However, I, limp-wristed random geek that I am, am also theoretically capable of killing a Servant. All I'd have to do is take a perfectly ordinary kitchen knife, place it against their heart or their head, and then bash it in with a hammer (because there's no way I could overcome their Endurance with my noodle arms.)

... if, yannow, the Servant just sits there and lets me.

Which is fundamentally the same problem that the Shikis have -- they just don't have the speed to keep up with Servants. If it's Void Shiki, she can sorta-kinda keep up defensively -- and in /GO, we see maybe how that might be, that apparently her "literally the Root" memes gives her enlightened-boddhisattva-esque abilities that translate to Servant-ish statistics -- but aside from that, all of them would fundamentally get speedblitzed after one or two strokes.

Basically, none of them are going to do any better than Shirou, and the one time Shirou ever managed to so much as touch a Servant under his own power it was, well, basically because he sat there and let him (rather than draw Ea) :V.
Fairly sure it'd have to be a magic knife, otherwise they're just going to heal.
Pretty much. And even then, that was only possible because Rin was a shining star of a genius that might one day reach top fifty in the Association*, who had the option of spending literally a decade of planning in a single night to counter everything that Caster had to throw out. If she hadn't had that?

Well, it wouldn't really have mattered how good her bajiquan was....

*And remember, her competition includes utter monsters like Aozaki "I can't believe it's not the Third Magic!" Touko and Kirschtaria "If I was born a thousand years ago I'd be Literally God" Wodime. Not to say that she's necessarily better than either of those in particular, but... in an Association with that as their extreme end, top fifty is kind of insane.
I believe it was top 100 in the Associations history.
 
From Case Files mats, thanks to someone uploading scans of the whole book:

You on Beast Lair said:
Magus rank

The lowest rank is Frame, but to obtain that rank the Clock Tower must recognize you as a "legitimate magus". A self-taught or unassociated magus is not "magus" to the Association, merely an outsider.

For a pleb with about five hundred years behind them doing their very best, Cause rank is the limit.

However, unless they "created some sort of magical foundation and stabilized it" they would not be recognized as having the sufficient ability for this rank.

Those marked as Fes are in a special slot. This rank is awarded as recognition for abilities outside of the normal: a special skill or achievement. For example El-Melloi II. Conversely a comparably high leveled magus can trapped be in Fes rank. Furthermore, although not the target of much gossip, ranks are given to lineages too. Normally a magus' rank and his family rank are in agreement, however in many cases a large gap calls upon tragedy.

Pride families where both the main and branch families do not have suitable successors will adopt and usher in an excellent magus from more common stock. Currently there are many houses with their eyes on El-Melloi classroom students
 
Which is fundamentally the same problem that the Shikis have -- they just don't have the speed to keep up with Servants. If it's Void Shiki, she can sorta-kinda keep up defensively -- and in /GO, we see maybe how that might be, that apparently her "literally the Root" memes gives her enlightened-boddhisattva-esque abilities that translate to Servant-ish statistics -- but aside from that, all of them would fundamentally get speedblitzed after one or two strokes.
It's probably less speed and more 'everything else.' Kouma was stated to be capable of fighting on the level of Servants, and Kiri was only surviving against him due to how quick he was. If Shiki can perform around his level, he ought to be capable of participating in combat against a Servant … he's just too fragile and doesn't hit hard enough, and he doesn't have the speed necessary to actually use his Eyes effectively.
 
At the end of the day B+~EX just looks nicer.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Ford. :V
apparently her "literally the Root" memes gives her enlightened-boddhisattva-esque abilities that translate to Servant-ish statistics
Just connected to it.
Fairly sure it'd have to be a magic knife, otherwise they're just going to heal.
Nah, that only matters if they astralized. When Servants are corporeal, they operate in accordance to physical laws and can be hurt by prosaic weapons.
Fate – day three – scene seventeen said:
"Look, the only ones who can beat these Servants are other Servants, spirits like them. Well, we can hit them too if they take form, so we might be able to beat them.
But Servants are all strong as monsters, right? So we let monsters deal with monsters. The Master usually supports them from behind."
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update 23/
CMIII said:
Spiritual Body and Material Body

"Spiritual Body" is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, "Material Body" means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.

When Servants materialise, they acquire Material Bodies in this world. They can also switch to Spiritual Bodies through their will. Spiritual Bodies have the advantages such as low mana consumption, and difficult to be detected by enemies. One of the properties of a Spiritual Body is that it is unaffected by physical interference, but conversely it is difficult for a Spiritual Body to affect a Material Body. As a result, Servants Materialise when engaging in combat.
http://completematerial.pbworks.com/Food's-backup-June-10th
Fate/side material said:
Properly speaking, they are not something that can be controlled by humans, but because they are burdened by the authority of the command spell, the "absolute condition for materialization" carved into them at the moment of summoning, they have no choice but to cooperate with their Master.

They are also capable of reverting into an immaterial spirit form at will, and while in this state can slip through inorganic substances that don't contain much mana.

When Lancer dropped down from the ceiling during his surprise attack on the Emiya residence, he used this spirit form to slip through the roof, then rematerialized once he reached the living room.

Also, while they are immune to normal physical interference in spirit form, their ability to affect the material world drops as well, making it advantageous to materialize for battles.
Servant | TMdict
 
Nah, that only matters if they astralized. When Servants are corporeal, they operate in accordance to physical laws and can be hurt by prosaic weapons.
And that contradicts several statements made in both the original VN and Fate/Apocrypha, in that they'd only be hurt it the attack was magical in some way. But this argument seems have to come up before, with the conclusion being "inconclusive, could go either way".
 
So, the first a of a few rather silly, heavily Nasu-ified Servants. I had to cheat a little with this one, because she's such a ... unique concept. I suspect she will be rather easily guessed regardless.



True Name

Recette Lemongrass



Nature

A young, adorable girl, not much older than ten, with uneven brown hair and identically-colored eyes; she wears an oversized red jacket covered with pockets. Surprisingly knowledgeable on many subjects and handy with her hands, she nevertheless entirely acts her age, innocent and brash. Nevertheless, she ascended to the Throne of Heroes not as a crafter or a merchant but as a hero who saved the world, if indirectly.



History

Born to an incompetent father and a mother who died in childbirth, Recette Lemongrass started from a position of essential independence, forced to quickly pick up the basic skills of living alone. When her father left to be a (rather useless) adventurer, he left his daughter with a massive debt that would have left her homeless and destitute before even reaching her teenage years.



Luckily, the fairy, Tear, that came to collect the debt was remarkably understanding of her predicament, and together they worked out a solution: together they would turn her house into an item shop, and in doing so raise the money to pay the debt before the deadline. They would christen their new shop Recettear.



Unfortunately, despite Recette's impressive natural talent for capitalism, she soon found the challenges of running an item shop beyond her, and Tear was forced to collect her debt, leaving her living out of a cardboard box. Lamenting her fate, Recette, in a simply ludicrous display of magical potential, instinctively turned back time.



With her newfound skill and fragments of memory from the vanished timeline, Recette found herself easily keeping ahead of her father's debt, only to find herself entangled in an incredibly cliched plot to end the world through use of a malevolent artifact. Through her own crafted Noble Phantasms, she was able to lead her customers (and friends) to victory, earning her her own place upon the Throne of Heroes.



Parameters

STR: E , END: E, AGI: D

MAG: A, LUK: B, PHA: EX



Class Skills

Item Construction (EX): The ability to craft artifacts of wonder. In merely a few hours, Caster is not only capable of crafting legendary weapons and enchanted amulets on par with the greatest of Noble Phantasms (if only in parameters and not in esoteric effects), through her Magic she is capable of forging for them a history, a true legend that nevertheless never occurred. In this sense she is possibly the only Servant capable of truly creating, not merely a powerful Mystic Code, but a Noble Phantasm, from scratch.



Territory Creation (B): Creation of an item shop, equivalent to a workshop, becomes possible. As the original was a "concept" rather than a particular "location", any suitable house can be quickly appropriated with only the application of a suitable marking. Nevertheless, she will quickly find her old possessions in such a territory, buried amidst junk in some old closet.



Personal Skills

Charisma (C): Somehow, through no real skill of her own, Caster attained in life a following across all paths of life, smug noble to skulking thief, and even including a sapient thaumaturgical wonder abandoned to its programming in human society and the last remnants of a dying race of nature spirits. At this rank, is capable of leading a "party", a motley band of adventurers.

"Something about that girl inspires people to ... care."



Golden Rule (A): Rising from absolute poverty, Caster became the single richest person in the world. At this rank, money troubles are completely unknown.



Discernment of the Poor (B) (C): The ability to see the true character of a person at a glance. Ranked down due to combat not being its original context.



Familiar(Fairy) (B): One of the last remnants of a dying race of nature spirits. Capable of various small magics, most significantly a defense akin to dematerialization: a defense that stems from an inability to interact with the world.



Magecraft (X): Caster is not consciously knowledgeable of magecraft, modern or otherwise. Nevertheless, she remains an unconscious, natural True Magician. See her Noble Phantasm.



Noble Phantasm

The Magic Blue ~ It Ends With a Box - EX

Anti-World Noble Phantasm

A natural understanding of the Fifth Magic. Caster is a master of the Fifth even beyond its current user in this world; she is capable of moving "time" and associated "experience" not only from people but inanimate objects and locations. Given only an emotional connection, she can fabricate legends for items by creating the assumed time, grant future heroes experience and skill they would normally not achieve for decades - but most importantly, she can edit the memories of the World itself, forcing a location to update to an impossible time. In this manner, a mansion may take on changes not implemented for weeks, or a shop acquire stock not even ordered for a month. Borrowing time from the World and granting it to others, she is the ultimate ideal of the parasitic Fifth, and her alterations are permanent and uncontested by the World that sees them as genuine.



The prana requirement for reckless use of the Fifth Magic is prohibitive for most Masters; Caster herself technically never used it in life, but rather only in a particularly unfair ritual she enacted whenever her life seemed over. By sacrificing all the time that remains of her current life, she transcends the Fifth to trespass upon the Second, stepping backwards through time in a paradoxical journey that immediately undoes her sacrifice; through her impressive Luck, she commands all the time she should have had as a young child regardless of how short destiny may have cut it in this universe. The new Caster is left with more than enough energy to restore the time she loses in such a way, not only for herself but for her friends and party. Perhaps a philosophical magus might be inclined to note that the original Caster is still "dead," but Caster herself does not seem to care, identifying all such versions of herself as "her" whether or not they share continuity. Her one weakness is that she does not carry memories back in time, not even her own: only "experience", of herself and her territory, are conserved.



As Caster will automatically use this ritual upon her death, truly defeating her is left as an exercise to the reader.
Very much a support-class Servant; nearly impossible to defeat, she nevertheless has no real offensive capability, and will be forced to rely on her Master and allied Servants.

So I got reminded of this for whatever reason, and...

... um, on the one hand, I basically called the mechanics behind Goetia's plot

on the other hand, I basically turned Recette Lemongrass into Goetia... >.>

And that contradicts several statements made in both the original VN and Fate/Apocrypha, in that they'd only be hurt it the attack was magical in some way. But this argument seems have to come up before, with the conclusion being "inconclusive, could go either way".
In the original Japanese, the wording is such that their immunity could simply be due to their ability to dematerialize -- plus Servant tier reflexes and senses ensuring they'd never be caught off guard. Given the latter WoG, it isn't really all that ambiguous...
 
Last edited:
In the original Japanese, the wording is such that their immunity could simply be due to their ability to dematerialize -- plus Servant tier reflexes and senses ensuring they'd never be caught off guard. Given the latter WoG, it isn't really all that ambiguous...
And yet other stuff contradicts that, and that stuff came out later. So again, who the fuck knows.

Or we can split the difference and guess that Servants when hit innately dematerialize the part hit I suppose.
 
And yet other stuff contradicts that, and that stuff came out later. So again, who the fuck knows.

Or we can split the difference and guess that Servants when hit innately dematerialize the part hit I suppose.
No, they don't.

Like, straight up, no, that does not have any explicit contradictions that I'm aware of, and I'd appreciate it if you'd bring up the source if you have one. I'm increasingly tired of people accusing Nasu of contradictions without basis (or based on faulty translations, which I suppose isn't their fault but is still tiring).

Nasu has, indeed, made "a couple mistakes." In much the same way that Shirou has missed "exactly once", with a bow. It is possible you've found one of them, but they are literally orders of magnitude rarer than most people seem to assume. He clearly spends a lot of time on making sure of that.
 
Unrelated:
And coupled with Roa never meeting Arcueid and Blackmore's despair, is the truth of it that in Fate worlds Crimson Moon is defeated in such a way that Arcueid is never born?
But I'm changing my answer, because I somehow forgot this quote was lying around:
FGO Interview said:
Q: So let's talk about the development from Type-Moon works itself, since we have Sion, who originally appeared in "MELTY BLOOD", appear in Part II.

Nasu: So you see, as the world is now bleached white in Part II, there are no other characters other than Sion but "Tsukihime" in the world of Fate is an aspect where over half of the characters are completely different characters if they actually exist in that world. Though Arcueid's character will share a common character/existence but you can also say Shiki or Akiha will likely not come to Chaldea. However, even if their backstories are completely different, Ciel and Arcueid's combat prowess will remain the same as it is, so it's easy to write her combat ability in stories. Even so, I think it's not common to have the world of "Fate" and "Tsukihime" intertwined together.
 
No, they don't.

Like, straight up, no, that does not have any explicit contradictions that I'm aware of, and I'd appreciate it if you'd bring up the source if you have one. I'm increasingly tired of people accusing Nasu of contradictions without basis (or based on faulty translations, which I suppose isn't their fault but is still tiring).

Nasu has, indeed, made "a couple mistakes." In much the same way that Shirou has missed "exactly once", with a bow. It is possible you've found one of them, but they are literally orders of magnitude rarer than most people seem to assume. He clearly spends a lot of time on making sure of that.
Fate/Apocrypha:
Volume 2 said:
Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them…
Though, it was the first time Ruler had witnessed of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed apart with a sword.
Fallacies had a big talk about this, I've found nothing that says that the translation is inaccurate. Then there's stuff like with Francis Drake in F/GO, of which here is a source.

Both of these came out after CMIII. If you can find a source stating the above are inaccurate, I will happily bow out, but I haven't, so I'm working off the assumption that "stuff in more recent works" trumps "stuff clarified in a art/data book".
 
Last edited:
Fate/Apocrypha:

Fallacies had a big talk about this, I've found nothing that says that the translation is inaccurate. Then there's stuff like with Francis Drake in F/GO, of which here is a source.

Both of these came out after CMIII. If you can find a source stating the above are inaccurate, I will happily bow out, but I haven't, so I'm working off the assumption that "stuff in more recent works" trumps "stuff clarified in a art/data book".
It's not inaccurate, it's just not in contradiction. In fact, I can even make speculation about why just being infused with prana works -- we finally have confirmation as of Babylon that mana == Ether to some extent, so a spiritual corpus made out of ether is fundamentally made out of the same 'stuff' that you shove into a weapon to reinforce it, say.

But I don't really need that particular speculation to be true, because the original just says vague things like "invincible" (of Drake) or "could never harm a Servant." The former is entirely consistent with a theory that says that Servants can just dematerialize; the latter is similarly ambiguous as to whether it "could never harm a Servant" because of an innate magical quality or because of skill and the advantage of dematerialization. It's entirely reasonable to say that, to use myself as an example again, "I could never harm a Servant," and this would be true regardless of whether nor not I knew any magecraft, because haha no I cannot touch a Servant that is not just letting themselves be hit.

(As a side note, there is a sense in which Servants are going to be at least difficult to harm with mundane weapons -- they're creatures of Mystery, they have Endurance that exceeds the Common Sense. But, like, while that is a valid defense rooted in Mystery, it's not like it's God Hand or something that makes them outright invincible to things below that Rank? Saying that it would make them invincible is something of an extraordinary claim that needs evidence more extraordinary than just non-magi calling them invincible in a casual, non-rigorous context.)
 
It's not inaccurate, it's just not in contradiction. In fact, I can even make speculation about why just being infused with prana works -- we finally have confirmation as of Babylon that mana == Ether to some extent, so a spiritual corpus made out of ether is fundamentally made out of the same 'stuff' that you shove into a weapon to reinforce it, say.

But I don't really need that particular speculation to be true, because the original just says vague things like "invincible" (of Drake) or "could never harm a Servant." The former is entirely consistent with a theory that says that Servants can just dematerialize; the latter is similarly ambiguous as to whether it "could never harm a Servant" because of an innate magical quality or because of skill and the advantage of dematerialization. It's entirely reasonable to say that, to use myself as an example again, "I could never harm a Servant," and this would be true regardless of whether nor not I knew any magecraft, because haha no I cannot touch a Servant that is not just letting themselves be hit.

(As a side note, there is a sense in which Servants are going to be at least difficult to harm with mundane weapons -- they're creatures of Mystery, they have Endurance that exceeds the Common Sense. But, like, while that is a valid defense rooted in Mystery, it's not like it's God Hand or something that makes them outright invincible to things below that Rank? Saying that it would make them invincible is something of an extraordinary claim that needs evidence more extraordinary than just non-magi calling them invincible in a casual, non-rigorous context.)
Given that we've never actually seen a Servant dematerialize to avoid an attack by mundane means, this is kind of suspect. It's also worth noting that Jeanne cannot dematerialize in Fate/Apocrypha, as she's borrowing Laeticia's body. It seems utterly bizarre for her to muse on how impossible it would be for rocks to hurt a Servant because they can dematerialize without A) mentioning the dematerialization process at all, thus requiring you to have prior knowledge to understand it, or B) being capable of dematerializing, in which case you'd imagine she'd mention how possessing a living girl is a disadvantage in that regard, which she does several times during the light novels.
 
WRT to the Spiritual versus Material stuff, Fate Complete Material III has this to say:

[hide]​
[v] Fate/complete material III: World material - Records of Heavens Feel - Servant System: Spiritual Body and Material Body, p.018
Spiritual Body and Material Body
"Spiritual Body" is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, "Material Body" means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.
When Servants materialise, they acquire Material Bodies in this world. They can also switch to Spiritual Bodies through their will. Spiritual Bodies have the advantages such as low mana consumption, and difficult to be detected by enemies. One of the properties of a Spiritual Body is that it is unaffected by physical interference, but conversely it is difficult for a Spiritual Body to affect a Material Body. As a result, Servants Materialise when engaging in combat.

Although both are Material Bodies, the composition of Servants and Humans are drastically different. Naturally, it is impossible to transplant a portion of a Servant's Material Body to a human. However, Emiya Shirou was able to successfully transplant Archer's left arm to replace his own lost left arm. How is this possible? It is because Shirou and Archer – Heroic Spirit Emiya are the same person.​

So, presumably when Servants are materialised they are theoretically harmable by mundane weaponry? Though given that Servants tend to be superhumanly tough/fast, what have you, it's probably a better idea to use stuff with Mystery in any case.
 
WRT to the Spiritual versus Material stuff, Fate Complete Material III has this to say:



So, presumably when Servants are materialised they are theoretically harmable by mundane weaponry? Though given that Servants tend to be superhumanly tough/fast, what have you, it's probably a better idea to use stuff with Mystery in any case.
I think my problem with that is that we never actually see a Servant dematerialize to avoid mundane weaponry at all. The only thing we have are some stuff that comes after CMIII which seems to suggest that they flat out cannot be harmed without any sort of mystery or magical energy charged weapon.

I'm more inclined to trust the newer content and take the most obvious interpretation rather than assuming they mean something completely different that hasn't ever like...happened.

For example, you'd imagine that if what Drake meant when she said "invincible" was "they vanish and reappear whenever anyone hits them with anything but they can't do that with me", she'd have said that. You kind of need to reach to assume that it's based on a theoretical mechanic that no Servant has ever used in the way it's being suggested it could be used, and that everyone involved is just being very coy and misleading about the exact method.
 
And that contradicts several statements made in both the original VN and Fate/Apocrypha, in that they'd only be hurt it the attack was magical in some way. But this argument seems have to come up before, with the conclusion being "inconclusive, could go either way".
You mean statements made by Shirou, who's explicitly wrong about Heroic Spirits and their mechanics? He's clueless about how those things work; his first assumption upon seeing Servants was to compare them to ghosts and then conclude that's incorrect because ghosts can't affect the physical realm because they're spiritual and bear no form.
Both of these came out after CMIII.
I mean, Fate/Zero came out after the VN and it still got CS completely wrong (there's no interim step where Masters have a mark of the chosen, they just immediately get CS and this qualifies them to summon a Servant which is wack). Mechanics can be outright different in different works because the authors got them wrong or chose not to utilize them.
Then there's stuff like with Francis Drake in F/GO, of which here is a source.
https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/49148917/
https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/49113667/
which seems to suggest that they flat out cannot be harmed without any sort of mystery or magical energy charged weapon.
If you look at the example of Herakles, it's because of his numinous blood—of his Noble Phantasm—that he has an invincibility which cannot be breached unless one meets the criterion of A-rank valuation. Other things are armor—something that can be pierced with enough repetition per Saber.
 
If you look at the example of Herakles, it's because of his numinous blood—of his Noble Phantasm—that he has an invincibility which cannot be breached unless one meets the criterion of A-rank valuation. Other things are armor—something that can be pierced with enough repetition per Saber.
For elaboration:
JP said:
武蔵

別に何がどうっていうのじゃないのだけれど、​
ふと『共通点』に気付いたから。思考実験、みたいな?​

風魔小太郎

共通点、ですか?​

武蔵

英霊っていうのは、英雄よね。​
それは(いくさ)働きで名を上げた侍ばかりが成るものじゃないでしょう?​
酷いお殿さまに逆らって衆生(みんな)を救おうとしたようなヒトだっているのよね?​

ぐだ子

1:スパルタクスが後者だね​
2:ブーディカもある意味では後者かな​

武蔵

そしてヒトを遥かに超えてもいる。​
英霊、全員じゃなくても概ねみんな強いでしょう?​

風魔小太郎

はい。神秘を含まない攻撃が通らない肉体を備えていますし、​
それだけでも相当の脅威かと。​
Musashi

It isn't a matter of [import],​
but I've incidentally come to notice a 『commonality』 [amongst them]. [Perhaps] this would be something akin to a thought experiment?​

Fuuma Kotarou

A commonality?​

Musashi

That what are referred to as Heroic Spirits would be Heroes, yes?​
And such wouldn't comprise solely of samurai that have made a name for themselves by their endeavors in warfare, yes?​
There likewise exist such persons as would unto the Sattva(everyone) attempt to grant deliverance by way of rebellion against a cruel lord, yes?​

Gudako

1: Spartacus would be amongst the latter, I suppose.​
2: Boudica would in a sense also fall amongst the latter, perhaps?​

Musashi

Thereon, there are likewise those who would distantly exceed [the means of] Man.​
Even that it isn't every single one, Heroic Spirits are in general all [very] strong, yes?​

Fuuma Kotarou

Indeed. Being borne of flesh impenetrable by attacks uninvested (含まない, fukumanai, "absent / uninclusive") of Mystery​
is alone a considerable threat.​
For comparison:
NA said:
Musashi

It may not mean much, but I happened to notice something they have in common. I guess you can think of this as a kind of thought experiment?

Fuuma Kotarou

Something they have in common?

Musashi

By definition, Heroic Spirits are heroes, right? And it's not like just any samurai who made a name for himself on the battlefield can become one, right?
Some of them are people who, say, rebelled against a cruel feudal lord to save others, right?

Gudako

1: Spartacus would be an example of the latter.
2: I guess that kinda fits Boudica.

Musashi

What's more, they can do a lot more than any human. It may not be true for all of them, but most Heroic Spirits are really strong, right?

Fuuma Kotarou

Right. Just the fact that their bodies aren't harmed by ordinary attacks makes them exceptionally dangerous.
 
Last edited:
Honestly, the most annoying thing about this is that, IIRC, we only have one actual example of an entirely mundane attack made against Servants - Kuzuki hitting Archer in UBW.

Which goes:

Any ordinary man would have his skull crushed, but Archer does not dodge it.


His head moves from the impact.


The knight in red takes Kuzuki's blow,


and pierces Kuzuki Souichirou's chest at the same time.
 
The precise details are pretty sketchy. Like in the F/Z novels the narrative makes it clear that under normal circumstances Saber wouldn't consider things like gatling guns and guided missiles a threat, and it's only Berserker's Noble Phantasm that makes them effective against her, but the narrative kind of suggests that it's because she can just deflect them with swordplay ... which she can do against Berserker's empowered weapons anyway. There's also stuff like how in F/SN Servants are, from time to time, harmed by getting thrown into things like walls, such as Kuzuki's pitching Saber like a baseball or Rider flinging True Assassin around on the end of her chain.

Narratively speaking I think it matters who is doing it (ie. Kuzuki can hurt Saber in large part because he has Caster's backing, Rider is also a Servant), but I don't know that you can create a coherent mechanism for every instance. The example in Apocrypha with the magical shrapnel 'makes sense,' but obviously wouldn't apply in a situation where someone is knocked into a wall.
 
I mean, despite what @fallacies said in that post, I think I would say that yes, a perfectly mundane action done with a perfectly mundane weapon, is no longer mundane when a Servant does it. Servants are, like elementals, fundamentally creatures of Mystery, and everything they do exceeds the Common Sense. So yeah, even if you handed a perfectly mundane arrow to Archer and he, like, throws it at you like it's a javelin, that's now not just an ordinary arrow but "an arrow thrown by a Hero".

-- In fact, you can even go a step further and claim that this is the entire point of Heroic Spirits in the first place. After all, isn't the basis of a Heroic Spirit precisely "well, yeah, sure Achilles can throw a rock so hard it goes through two people's skulls. He's Achilles."?
 
Back
Top