The nature of an Underworld is dependent upon the culture from which it spawns.
In general, it would to the living be as an embodiment of their attitudes regarding death -- of the reward or punishment that comes of adherence to morality.
Beni-Enma gives that she's heard that long ago, the Utsushiyo was one with the Underworld -- but personally, she finds this to be a manner of afterlife difficult to accept.
She gives that as of such a point that the humans of a given locale cease to place any importance or mystery in death, the Underworld itself becomes "a Fantasy depreciated of value."
Thus, she describes herself as a Heroic Spirit that came to exist within a Underworld that was no longer feared by Man; no longer held of any necessity; an existence that could no longer grant salvation. The Underworld was at the time of her formation already obsolete.
The Enma-Tei as well is soon to become a thing of the past. No longer does it offer salvation to humans that lose themselves in the mountains. No longer does it offer healing to the Eight Million Gods.
Neither the Underworld nor the Enma-Tei are of necessity to the Utsushiyo of the present day.
Beni-Enma gives that their role is over.

Once, long ago, a lone Kamuro wandered astray within the mountains, and came upon a grand mansion. There, there were none of the adults that would abuse her, and the grounds were filled with wondrous things: Warm beds and cushions, and beautiful gardens; and cute sparrows that played among the trees. She thought that this must be a blessing of the Buddha, that she would see such a sight before she died.

However, by that point, she had for days wandered without food or rest, and crying at the sight before her as she prayed, she breathed her last.

After becoming an Oni of the Sparrows, and being granted administration of the Enma-Tei, Beni-Enma was told that as the Mayoiga was the location where her mortal self drew her last breath, he would allow that the sparrows in its gardens be her servitors when she comes to act as its administrator.

But Beni-Enma desired to once again witness the World of Man. Therefore, becoming as a small red bird, she flew out from the mountains, and sought out a human village. There, she was captured by an old woman -- but the woman gave her over to an old man, who for some reason lived alone. Under his care, Beni-Enma was able to nurse her injuries.

After healing, she asked him why he saved her to no gain of his own. To this, he replied that he didn't know -- but that it isn't wrong to help others when they need it. After this, he told her not to be captured again. However, at the time that he allowed her to fly free, she came to know of his circumstances. The old man was unable to pay his yearly dues, and the people of his village refused to help. Without assistance, he might be put to death.

Thus, when he came to lose himself within the mountains, Beni-Enma drew him to the Enma-Tei -- and after repaying him for his kindness, she presented him with two boxes, telling him that he wouldn't be able to leave unless he took one of them. Satisfied merely at having met Beni-Enma again, the old man took the smaller box, and returned to his village. Thereafter, he found within the box a treasure that would allow him to live peace for the remainder of his life.

However, years had passed since he went missing, and he returned unaged. The villagers wondered at this, and when they asked him what had happened, he told them that he was helped by a Buddha in the mountains, who told him that if he were to live his life properly, nothing ill would befall him.

The villagers were jealous, but their responses were varied. Some suspected the existence of a wondrous place in the mountains, and so sought it out. Some attempted to follow the advice of the old man, with success and failure. In the end, however, the old man chose in secret to expend the treasure within the box to the happiness of his village. The village prospered, and became a happy place, where all things were in accord.

However, the old man was ever the odd man out, and the villagers excluded him in their association. Beni-Enma couldn't comprehend this -- couldn't understand why it was that he took no claim of responsibility in the flourishing of his town. Rather than telling anyone, he became known as a teller of tall tales, spinning out stories wherein living decently is rewarded by karma.

When he died, he died alone, but it was with a smile. In death, his funeral was attended by many -- but not because they were aware of his actions. Rather, they were people who were saved by his stories.

The old man, who derived happiness from helping others, was not himself granted happiness by the treasure that Beni-Enma imparted to him.

Beni-Enma gives that even as the Enma-Tei is now an existence without meaning or relevance to Man of modernity, it remains a place where the axis of time isn't bound to the advancement of the time of the Surface. Therefore, so long as it continues to exist, there remains a chance that someday, she can once again meet the old man. Ergo, even though the Enma has indicated that the time approaches for her to retire with him to the Reverse, it's to once again encounter the old man that she continues to defend the Inn.

... somehow, it turned into a story about Emiya Shirou ...
 
Oh so that's the liar who brought everyone happiness that Beni mentions in her lines

>... somehow, it turned into a story about Emiya Shirou ...

I mean fate constantly recycling themes is common. Heck there's even a Demi-servant Galahad on Fate/Requiem and its a girl made with a purpose in mind so yeah

Also Witches and Birds

 
he gives that as of such a point that the humans of a given locale cease to place any importance or mystery in death, the Underworld itself becomes "a Fantasy depreciated of value."
It must be a matter of different circumstances leading to vastly different perspectives, but I know many people offline who completely disavow the existence of a God -and specifically the Abrahamic God.

However it is only online that I've enountered persons who prefer a perspective on death and dying that is solely determined by current scientific understanding and cold reasoning.

None of those Atheists I personally know are willing to completely disavow the existence of an afterlife. Most have a firm personal belief in a specific afterlife that they believe in just as solidly as their belief in the non-existence of God.

Naturally these afterlives are devoid of judgement or supreme supernatural entities.

Some are convinced it is the ultimate goal of every sentient species to construct their own afterlife retroactively.

Others are just uncommitted, but unwilling to claim there is no hereafter.

So when expanding on Nasu mechanics in my own fics, my assumption was that belief in the afterlife was nearly as prevalent and strong as belief in metaphors.
 
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I think it's more than just faith really

The Earth runs a check and if it goes

[X] Humanity doesn't need you anymore

You get kicked out, doesn't matter how many people believe you, granted Beni seems to have avoided and is resisting the call to the reverse somehow

Unless your name is YHVH then you do whatever the hell you want I guess
 
I think it's more than just faith really

The Earth runs a check and if it goes

[X] Humanity doesn't need you anymore

You get kicked out, doesn't matter how many people believe you, granted Beni seems to have avoided and is resisting the call to the reverse somehow

Unless your name is YHVH then you do whatever the hell you want I guess

It strikes me as weird, like I'm not a big into shinto or buddhist but this is a shinto/buddhist underworld correct? Which are still very big religions still being actively worshiped.

EDIT : Ok I asked a friend who knows jp from BL, he says according to beni she says this.

"As a society death has become so commonplace that it's no longer truly feared. Therefore people are considering underworlds as an illusion people have made up."

If he got something wrong sorry.
 
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It strikes me as weird, like I'm not a big into shinto or buddhist but this is a shinto/buddhist underworld correct? Which are still very big religions still being actively worshiped.

EDIT : Ok I asked a friend who knows jp from BL, he says according to beni she says this.

"As a society death has become so commonplace that it's no longer truly feared. Therefore people are considering underworlds as an illusion people have made up."

If he got something wrong sorry, but Really?

I don't understand your objection.
 
I don't understand your objection.

It just strikes me as weird for a shinto underworld to be considered 'deprecated' to use a term, like I understand why the babylonian underworld disappeared cause there is so few worshippers outside of like occultists, like people still worship shinto, But I feel like this may steer into the scarcity argument
 
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It just strikes me as weird for a shinto underworld to be considered 'deprecated' to use a term, like I understand why the babylonian underworld disappeared cause there is so few worshippers outside of like occultists, like people still worship shinto, But I feel like this may steer into the scarcity argument

Still wouldn't stop it from being excluded. Also, there are fewer and fewer worshipers. What's not to get? We have no idea what the threshold for belief is to maintain something like an underworld.
 

Holy shit, these lines are amazing. I can't wait til she comes out in NA, I'm rolling for her damn it!

Question though, who is this Grandpa she refers to? I'm assuming it's another Servant, and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is King Hassan lol. Which would maybe make sense because of who he is and the fact that her whole place is in Hell.

Edit: Mother of God, a pretty damn solid kit and the Disgaea artist. Somebody hold me back, I'm so fucking tempted to just make a JP account right now.
 
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Holy shit, these lines are amazing. I can't wait til she comes out in NA, I'm rolling for her damn it!

Question though, who is this Grandpa she refers to? I'm assuming it's another Servant, and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is King Hassan lol. Which would maybe make sense because of who he is and the fact that her whole place is in Hell.

She is refering to the Yama aka Lord Enma.
 
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Question though, who is this Grandpa she refers to? I'm assuming it's another Servant, and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is King Hassan lol. Which would maybe make sense because of who he is and the fact that her whole place is in Hell.
She is refering to the Yama aka Lord Enma.
I'm pretty sure she's referring to the old man who helped her.
She's referring to the old man who helped her.
 
Would Akiha know about vampires? She would, right, as they're similar beings to oni and other mythological creatures, and the Tohno clan is one of the demon-blooded clans. So why does she pretend not to know when Shiki tells her he killed a 'bad vampire' with the help of a 'good vampire'?

I'm playing through Tsukihime right now, so that just stood out as a bit odd to me. Could simply be something that'll be explained as I play further, though.
 
So why does she pretend not to know when Shiki tells her he killed a 'bad vampire' with the help of a 'good vampire'?
Because she doesn't want Shiki to know anything about the Tohno family, and she's quite determined to shield him from the darker side of the family. She does a pretty good job of it too - you don't learn that there's anything out of the ordinary at home until you do the Far Side routes.
 
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For the life of me I can't figure out how mystery is supposed to work. Does magecraft get weaker when more people learn about it, or when more people use it? What makes something mysterious? The word seems to suggest that it applies to things that are poorly defined in human understanding, but what metric is the definition measured against? Say, fire in the modern day isn't mysterious because we've defined the process of oxidation down to the atomic level, but then wouldn't fire in antiquity also not be mysterious because humans back then dedicated a ton of time and mental effort to discerning the properties and interactions of the elements?

On a separate but related note, what happens to magic--not magic users, but magic itself--if the broader public discovers its existence? Say that people become aware on a massive scale that there are phenomena that defy our understanding of the natural laws and that these phenomena can be controlled by humans under proper conditions. Everyone has their own nutball idea about how the specifics work, to varying levels of incorrectness, but it's common knowledge that, broad-strokes, magic is a thing. What direct effects does this have on magic's properties and behavior, if any?
 
Magecraft gets weaker when stuff is explored and learned about. See puppetry becoming much much weaker and lots of mystery when the human anatomy was mapped and learned of. See people being horrified that Waver is good at figuring out the formulas, workings and basis of other peoples magecraft also in Case Files.

Being present in a culture makes for a foundation.

Magic's gonna go poof if the masquerade is gone. There's a reason why the plot of Agartha is let's reveal magic so Chaldea can't do stuff anymore. But yeah the MA keeps it secret to preserve magic and it's existence is pretty much for the sake of preserving magic.
 
For the life of me I can't figure out how mystery is supposed to work. Does magecraft get weaker when more people learn about it, or when more people use it? What makes something mysterious? The word seems to suggest that it applies to things that are poorly defined in human understanding, but what metric is the definition measured against? Say, fire in the modern day isn't mysterious because we've defined the process of oxidation down to the atomic level, but then wouldn't fire in antiquity also not be mysterious because humans back then dedicated a ton of time and mental effort to discerning the properties and interactions of the elements?

On a separate but related note, what happens to magic--not magic users, but magic itself--if the broader public discovers its existence? Say that people become aware on a massive scale that there are phenomena that defy our understanding of the natural laws and that these phenomena can be controlled by humans under proper conditions. Everyone has their own nutball idea about how the specifics work, to varying levels of incorrectness, but it's common knowledge that, broad-strokes, magic is a thing. What direct effects does this have on magic's properties and behavior, if any?
Your first example is indeed roughly correct. That which humanity believes it understands, is not mysterious and thus has little Mystery. That being said... ask a fire fighter sometime, how well we understand fire, how well we can empirically predict, say, a forest fire. Even though we poo-poo fire as being long understood... no, in practice fire, especially large, dramatic fires, still has quite a bit of Mystery left to it.

That being said? Lightning is a much better example. Five hundred years ago we had jack shit to go on; that's why it tends to be a divine weapon, whether it's the vajra or the kaminari or Zeus' thunderbolt. Tesla gets one of the few EX-Rank NPs among modern heroes for being (chosen to represent the team of) scientist(s) who brought it down from flat Magic.

And if people only discover its existence, I actually don't think it'd be as drastic as @Menwearpink says. The world has been "aware" of magecraft before, after all. The problem comes when people start bringing actual magecraft into the limelight, on television and into newspapers. Once it becomes banal, a part of life, once people start to think they have a grasp on it... it'll start vanishing, but science itself will take longer to catch up.
 
Literally an fgo plot fam.
first of all its minase, does anything by minase count

And that aside, yes, in a practical situation, revealing the existence of magecraft would immediately and inevitably result in a whole lot of bleed-through from the Moonlit World, as people start performing for an audience for a living, or try to make magitech industries, or the like, without worry about being hunted down by Enforcers. In practice, the reveal of magecraft => magecraft dies out.

But in the theoretical thought experiment where you only reveal the existence of magecraft, and still maintain the actual Masquerade, prevent all normal humans from actually seeing any of it or getting comfortable with it being part of their lives... no. No, it wouldn't do much.
 
Does magecraft have a limit to its degradation or does it keep getting worse and worse until it doesn't work at all?

How does that work with 'common' spells like reinforcement? Something practically every mage knows about.

Was reinforcement at one point a super cool spell that made its discoverer into Hercules?

Only for it to be spread around to the point of becoming common knowledge among Mage's and degrading into something used by teenagers performing parkour?
 
Does magecraft have a limit to its degradation or does it keep getting worse and worse until it doesn't work at all?

How does that work with 'common' spells like reinforcement? Something practically every mage knows about.

Was reinforcement at one point a super cool spell that made its discoverer into Hercules?

Only for it to be spread around to the point of becoming common knowledge among Mage's and degrading into something used by teenagers performing parkour?
No. It means that Reinforcement is a functional orientation along which a spell can exert an effect.

Reinforcement magecraft would therefore merely be magecraft that has the Attribute / Specialization of Reinforcement as (one among) its functional orientation(s). We don't have any information about which or how many Foundations would or would not be able to implement Reinforcement. It's entirely possible that it's common enough that any Foundation can handle it.
Fallacies when discussing how reinforcement is a sorcery trait.

So as far as I'm aware reinforcement isn't a spell in itself, but rather something spells can do based off their foundations. Thus there isn't one unifying reinforcement spell, but multiple spells that all end up with similar effects when done through that magus foundation.
 
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