Type Moon General

fallacies · May 21, 2018

The Imperator said:
I was mainly wondering if people had suggestions for which of those they would find most fun, or pitfalls to running any of those that they might notice.

Well, speaking generally, Type Moon seems like a setting where it would be difficult to level up.
For reference, the Circuits of a magus are typically characterized by their standing in two competencies.
To give some examples from Mahoyo:

May Riddell Archelot
System: Modern Black Magecraft.
Quality: A
Quantity: D
Composition: Normal (multiple precursors to mutation present).

Aozaki Aoko
System: By way of multiple Crests, the processing, conversion, and output of Mana; Magic Blue.
Quality: C
Quantity: E
Composition: Normal. Extremely simple.

Kuonji Alice
System: Yumina.
Quantity: A+
Quality: A++
Composition: Abnormal.

Suse Ritsuka
System: Black Magecraft (Self-Modification, Curse of Self-Binding, etc.).
Quality: C
Quantity: C
Composition: Normal.

Aozaki Touko
System: Runes; Human Anatomy; all varieties of Architectural Magecraft.
Quality: EX
Quantity: B+
Composition: Normal.

Lugh Beowulf
System: Nothing in particular.
Divine Regression / Quality: A
Divine Regression / Quantity: C
Divine Regression / Composition: Systems up until the 18th Century.

Suse Yuika
System: 8th Sacrament; the slowing of the flesh by way of stigmata.
Quality: D
Quantity: D
Composition: Abnormal (no resistance to Holy).

Most "Compositions" are either normal or abnormal, but we don't know what this does yet.

A magi typically possesses a skillset that falls within a particular "System" -- which may be related to the Foundation they use? Also, they typically possess an Elemental Affinity, which determines the sorts of phenomenon they can induce.

A magi's Crest typically grants them a Thaumaturgical Specialization -- translated by the Wikia as Thaumaturgical Trait. However, it isn't actually genetically inherent to the magus, and defines essentially the phenomenal scope of their magecraft, in conjunction to Elemental Affinity. For example, a Crest can grant a specialization in "the Transference of Energy" or in "Reinforcement." Naturally, the Crest would presumably have something to do with the "System" the magus follows -- but other aspects of how a Crest functions aren't entirely clear.

We do know that they might have incorporated some sort of autocasting system; and may permit computer-like macros for spells with otherwise complicated casting procedures?

In any case, implementing a generic magus character within an RPG would be something like:

Character possesses Skill Tree for "System A" ->
Apply "Elemental Affinity" and "Thaumaturgical Specialization" to par down / filter down Skill Pathways available to Character

"Circuit Quantity" -> Determines MP Recovery per Turn
"Circuit Quality" -> Determines INT/WIS

But I have no idea how the generic magus character would level up.

Maybe, for example, the Crest is something you can improve only by acquiring an enemy character's Crest; and then there are rules regarding "purchase" of new Skill Trees / Systems when you incorporate the Crest into your own.

Presumably, with practice / experience, you receive points that can be used to purchase advancements along a Skill Pathway.

Is it possible to improve Circuit Quantity / Quality? As far as we know within the canon, not substantially?

Is it possible to improve the character's MP Pool? No idea -- but in the canon, it's given that higher order spellcasting might involve a physical vessel / container / manifestation / thaumaturgical circle / ritual that anchors the spell to a leyline, and thereon siphons environmental mana as fuel, rather than using the spellcaster's MP Pool.

The Imperator · May 21, 2018

Genesys isn't a level based system, it's a skill based Pen and Paper, so you increase skill, but ceilings on magical capabilities are easy to cap in the system. More looking for lore ideas. Don't plan to be 100% faithful to the mechanics of the setting, but am trying to be faithful to thematic and lore stuff. I'm going more for evoking Fate flavor rather than hard mechanics.

fallacies · May 21, 2018

The Imperator said:
Genesys isn't a level based system, it's a skill based Pen and Paper, so you increase skill, but ceilings on magical capabilities are easy to cap in the system. More looking for lore ideas. Don't plan to be 100% faithful to the mechanics of the setting, but am trying to be faithful to thematic and lore stuff. I'm going more for evoking Fate flavor rather than hard mechanics.

I'm not really certain as to what you mean by "thematic and lore stuff," if it's somehow different from the "mechanics?" Ultimately, the mechanics and the lore are more or less the same thing; and TM covers a vast range of different themes and settings, connected only by shared mechanics.

If you meant, like, you're just looking for input on a semi-original setting in the manner that a TRPG sourcebook would provide, alright?

But, for example, if you're doing a Fate setting involving some sort of Grail War, and there are player characters that are Masters, it would be kind of a poor showing if the way their magecraft works doesn't at least pay lip service to TM mechanics like Circuit Count / Quality and the Skill Tree stuff I discussed above.

If "how characters perform skills in the canon" isn't generally represented, it feels like it kinda misses the point?

The Imperator · May 21, 2018

fallacies said:
I'm not really certain as to what you mean by "thematic and lore stuff," if it's somehow different from the "mechanics?" Ultimately, the mechanics and the lore are more or less the same thing; and TM covers a vast range of different themes and settings, connected only by shared mechanics.

If you meant, like, you're just looking for input on a semi-original setting in the manner that a TRPG sourcebook would provide, alright?

But, for example, if you're doing a Fate setting involving some sort of Grail War, and there are player characters that are Masters, it would be kind of a poor showing if the way their magecraft works doesn't at least pay lip service to TM mechanics like Circuit Count / Quality and the Skill Tree stuff I discussed above.

If "how characters perform skills in the canon" isn't generally represented, it feels like it kinda misses the point?

Yeah, phrased that badly. I was more meaning I wasn't planning to put letter ranks to players, but would still work with them to figure out caps on casting abilities.

EDIT: And affinities, I like that sort of system, and it's pretty easy to implement in Genesys. Likewise with other things.

And the game even calls out that leveling magic skills should be as hard or easy as the GM wants, with even hard caps on skill ranks if the GM wants it to be difficult.

Genesys uses strain and wounds as two separate "hp" things, and casting burns strain. When you get to 0, you fall unconscious/are exhausted/etc. as appropriate for whatever brought you to zero. So that even works for a "mana" system too.

fallacies · May 21, 2018

The Imperator said:
Genesys uses strain and wounds as two separate "hp" things, and casting burns strain. When you get to 0, you fall unconscious/are exhausted/etc. as appropriate for whatever brought you to zero. So that even works for a "mana" system too.

In the canon, Servants die if their Spiritual Cores are compromised; and their cores are connected to their head and heart. Generally, this can only happen when they're physically manifest -- meaning that they're invincible and intangible if not manifest; though they cannot generally permeate decently established Bounded Fields; and Anti-Spiritual capabilities / armaments are able to affect them when they're otherwise intangible.

However, physical damage outside of the head and heart can gradually compromise integrity of the Spiritual Core in a manner akin to traditional HP depletion -- though this can be healed over time if they have access to a steady flow of mana from their Master or some other source. If no mana is provided, their Cores are likewise eventually compromised. Still, if the head and heart aren't pierced, the Servant can function even if they bear an injury that would otherwise kill a human.

That said, some Servants have conceptual defenses -- sometimes specific to a particular form of damage. Generally speaking, if the defensive capability is of a certain Rank, the offensive capability of the opponent can bypass it only if its Rank is higher. The same sort of Rank-based "overcoming" applies if weapons / attacks clash.

Ergo, practically:

If Servant B uses an attack on Servant A ->
Is Servant A manifest? ->
If no, renders no damage (unless attack is Anti-Spiritual). If yes ->
Check to see if Servant A has an applicable defensive ability ->
If no, skip to head / heart stage. If yes, check to see if defensive ability's Rank exceeds Servant B's attack ->
If yes, renders no damage. If no ->
Does the attack pierce Servant A's head or heart? ->
If yes, Servant A dies. If no, deals HP damage.

This covers the vast majority of actions that a Servant can take during combat, outside of abilities or actions that do not directly deal damage; or deal damage only conditionally.

Nine · May 21, 2018

All attacks by Servants have a spiritual component and spirit form ruins your defensive measures.

SF said:
Humph... So, a Master saw Saber on TV and decided to send in Assassin. We can't do anything physical to a Servant while it's in spirit form, but it's hard to imagine that it will stay that way for long.
A Servant in spirit form was incapable of taking any offensive or defensive measures. If a Master or other mage possessed the means of attacking a spirit body, they ran the risk of being one-sidedly annihilated. Consequently, remaining in spirit form around hostile Servants and Masters was not a winning strategy. The moment required to rematerialize could also create a fatal opening in a battle of instants.

Magical energy's required to hurt Servants regardless of spirit form or material form.

Apo said:
Five eyes, located in various places on Berserker's shoulders, neck and abdomen, all turned to glare at Archer of Red and Ruler. The two female Servants instantly separated to the left and right respectively as if flicked away. Not caring about that, Berserker of Red swung his sword with all his might.

Pieces of the ground that he blew away and smashed apart flew at Ruler and Archer like high-explosive projectiles.

"Guh—!"

"Kuh…!!"

Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the first time Ruler had witnessed of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed apart with a sword.

FSN said:
"There are ways for even us to defeat Saber. We just need to use magic that exceeds Saber's magic resistance, or use the weapon she uses and cut her neck while she's asleep. Servants' weapons are in spirit form like them, so they should be able to hurt them."

A Servant's attack has mystery, magical energy, and can hurt spiritual bodies.

That doesn't mean a Servant's attack affects a human's spirit or soul unless you do something to separate the spirit from the body in the case of the former or use a conceptual weapon to reach the astral plane in the case of the latter. But, a Servant can eat your mind and your soul, see Rider's dialogue from FSN on that.

A Servant is a ghost that can hurt people and ghosts, so it can punch ghosts even when the ghosts are ghost-y. When the ghosts are ghost-y, I can't punch a ghost though unless I have a magic boxing glove that lets me punch ghosts.

fallacies · May 21, 2018

Nine said:
That doesn't mean a Servant's attack affects a human's spirit or soul unless you do something to separate the spirit from the body in the case of the former or use a conceptual weapon to reach the astral plane in the case of the latter. But, a Servant can eat your mind and your soul, see Rider's dialogue from FSN on that.

A Servant is a ghost that can hurt people and ghosts, so it can punch ghosts even when the ghosts are ghost-y. When the ghosts are ghost-y, I can't punch a ghost though unless I have a magic boxing glove that lets me punch ghosts.

Well, about that. Mirror Moon has issues.

all fictions said:
Can Servants be hurt by mundane weapons? (With compliments to Beast Lair)

all fictions said:
3rd evidence: Fate, Day 10, Strategy Meeting

Mirror Moon said:
All Servants are Heroic Spirits you know? There's the fact that they're spirit bodies too, but they can't be hurt by normal means. A Servant itself is a mystery after all.

The only ones that can hurt a Servant with physical means is another Heroic Spirit, that is, a Servant. On the other hand, if it's between Servants, it's possible to hurt Saber with a mere paper knife."

セイバーに限らず、サーヴァントってのはみんな英霊なのよ？
Unrestricted to Saber alone, Servants are all Heroic Spirits, you know?
霊体って事もあるけど、まっとうな手段じゃ傷一つつけられない。
There's also the matter of their being spiritual corpora (霊体, reitai), of course, but if it's by straightforward means (まっとうな, mattou-na, "aboveboard / proper"; 手段, shudan, "means / measures"), they won't take a single injury.
サーヴァントはそれ自体が神秘だから。
Servants are themselves inherently Mysteries (神秘, shinpi), after all.

物理的な手段でサーヴァントを傷つけられるのは、同じ英霊であるサーヴァントだけ。
Rendering injury to a Servant by physical means (物理的な, butsuri-teki-na, "of or relating to physics / the physical principles") is strictly the prerogative of Servants who are likewise Heroic Spirits.
逆に言えばサーヴァント同士なら、ただのペーパーナイフでもセイバーを傷つける事はできる。
Conversely, if the attacker is another Servant, it would be possible for them to render injury to Saber with even a generic paper knife.

"Straightforward means" can't hurt Servants.
However, "physical means" can.

Given, it could either be the case that purely physical attacks conducted with Servant-like force, skill, and speed are capable of harming a Servant; or that only physical attacks conducted by Servants would be capable of harming a Servant, regardless of force, skill, and speed.

My interpretation obviously leans toward the former, but consider the following:

EMIYA releases a perfectly mundane arrow, blindsiding Medusa in the face. Would she be harmed? Physically speaking, while the arrow is in flight, is it somehow imbued with Mystery simply because it was shot by EMIYA? Or is it just a fast-moving object?

all fictions said:
1st evidence: Fate, Day 3, Tohsaka Rin (II)

Mirror Moon said:
Look, the only ones who can beat these Servants are other Servants, spirits like them.
Well, we can hit them too if they take form, so we might be able to beat them.

いい、サーヴァントを倒せるのは同じ霊体であるサーヴァントだけ。
Listen alright? It's strictly other Servants, who are likewise as spiritual corpora (霊体, reitai), that can defeat Servants.
そりゃあ相手が実体化していればこっちの攻撃も当たるから、うまくすれば倒せるかもしれない。
Though, seeing as (から, kara, "because") if the opposition corporealizes (実体化, jittai-ka, "renders to extant corpora"), attacks from us would likewise (も, mo) be able to land (当たる, ataru, "touch / reach / strike" or "be as valid"), assuming that we can skillfully take advantage of it (うまくすれば, umakusureba), it's possible that (かもしれない, kamoshirenai) we could defeat them as well.

If Servants become corporealized, attacks by "us" would likewise be able to land.
What she explains after that is that Servants are all monsters; and that, thus, it's best for magi to stay in the back lines as support.

all fictions said:
2nd evidence: Fate, Day 4, Rin's Question

Mirror Moon said:
And on top of that, the problem is that the Servants are normally in spirit form.
Humans can't see those in spirit form.
But since the Servants can affect the real world as spirits, you could call them the most powerful weapon.
With the technology we have now, there are no weapons that can affect a spiritual being.

Our attacks are useless against them, and their attacks can damage us.

くわえて、
Additionally,
なにより厄介なのはサーヴァントというのは基本的に霊体だという事だ。
what it is that is above all problematic is the matter that the existences known as Servants are by default (基本的に, kihon-teki ni, "as of standard / typicality") as spiritual corpora.
霊感のない人間には姿さえ観測できない。
Humans absent of spiritual awareness (霊感, reikan, "spiritual senses") are incapable of observing (観測できない, kansoku-dekinai) even (さえ, sae) their forms (姿, sugata).
にも関わらず実体を持つかのように現世に干渉できるという時点で、
Despite all this (にも関わらず, ni mo kakawarazu), as of the point in time (時点で, jiten de) at which they come to possess corporeality (実体, jittai; "extant corpora," in the sense of physicality) and thereby become capable of interfering (干渉できる, kanshou-dekiru) with the manifest world (現世, gensei),
サーヴァントは最強の兵器と言えるだろう。
Servants might be referred to as the strongest of weapons (最強の兵器, saikyou no heiki), no?
なにしろ今の科学では、
In any event, by the science of present day,
霊体に効果のある兵器など存在しない。
weapons and so forth that are effective against spiritual corpora are nonextant.

こちらの攻撃は通じず、
Attacks from our side wouldn't communicate;
あちらの攻撃は通じる。
Attacks from their side would communicate.

When Servants are as spiritual corpora, they can't be detected, and attacks can't reach them.
Per modern science, weapons that are effective against spiritual corpora are nonextant.
Attacks from their side communicate, but only when they become corporealized and therefore capable of interfering with the manifest world.

all fictions said:
4th evidence: Heaven's Feel, Day 15, Tactics

Mirror Moon said:
"Right, next question. Are Servants still spirits even if they take physical form? So you can't hurt them with normal weapons?"

"...Let's see. A normal Servant will be able to nullify them, but those consumed by Sakura are another matter.
Having received bodies from Sakura, they cannot return to spiritual form.
Strong magical weapons should be able to penetrate through their shadows."

「じゃあ次。
Then, moving on.
サーヴァントは実体化していても、
Even if a Servant corporealizes,
カテゴリー的には霊体なんだろ。
they're still categorically spiritual corpora, yes?
となると、通常の武器ではサーヴァントを傷つけられないのか」
Ergo, would conventional weapons be incapable of rendering injury to a Servant?

「……そうですね。
... well, about that.
通常のサーヴァントなら無効化できますが、
Though a typical Servant would be capable (できます, dekimasu) of rendering such an attack ineffectual (無効化, mukou-ka, "render absent of effect"),
サクラに囚われたサーヴァントは別です。
those Servants that are entrapped by Sakura are a different matter.
セイバーは肉を与えられ、
Saber is furnished with flesh,
霊体に戻れない生命です。
and is therefore as an organism (生命, seimei) that cannot revert to a spiritual corpora.
強力な魔術品ならば、
By use of a potent thaumaturgical instrument (魔術品, majutsu-hin),
彼らが纏った黒い影を突破できるでしょう」
it should be possible to bypass (突破, toppa) the black shadow that enshrouds them.

A typical Servant can render damage from conventional weapons ineffective.
Saber is different in that she cannot revert to a spiritual corpora.

McJon's Type Moon Encyclopedia:

Servant [Sorcery]
Source: Fate/side material (2004-1-30), p.061
Fate Dictionary

Heroic Spirits summoned by the Holy Grail. A type of familiar.

They are souls of the highest purity, called forth using artifacts linked to the Heroic Spirits, into seven classes (containers) prepared in advance.

Properly speaking, they are not something that can be controlled by humans, but because they are burdened by the authority of the command spell, the "absolute condition for materialization" carved into them at the moment of summoning, they have no choice but to cooperate with their Master.

They are also capable of reverting into an immaterial spirit form at will, and while in this state can slip through inorganic substances that don't contain much mana.

When Lancer dropped down from the ceiling during his surprise attack on the Emiya residence, he used this spirit form to slip through the roof, then rematerialized once he reached the living room.

Also, while they are immune to normal physical interference in spirit form, their ability to affect the material world drops as well, making it advantageous to materialize for battles.

By default, Servants already have invincibility against conventional physical attacks by way of phasing, superspeed, uber martial arts, mana-provision regeneration, and other Servant-specific defenses (e.g. Herakles' flesh). Nuking them doesn't work because they can phase out.

Nine said:
Magical energy's required to hurt Servants regardless of spirit form or material form.

Until Apocrypha's mention of physical damage being restricted to mana-imbued objects, there was no solid evidence that they possessed any sort of generic defense against conventional physical injury by simple virtue of being a Servant on top of all the above. Given the emphasis on "reverting to spiritual corpora," it's entirely possible that Apocrypha's condition isn't applicable to FSN.

Also, in Grand Order, Musashi-the-human can apparently physically hack away at a Servant with a regular katana (and I'm not referring to Muramasa's creations). Obviously, we can't say for certain that her style of sword wielding doesn't happen to involve imbuing her katana with Od; and, being a Slider, she's hardly a normal human -- but still.

Nine said:
All attacks by Servants have a spiritual component and spirit form ruins your defensive measures.
A Servant's attack has mystery, magical energy, and can hurt spiritual bodies.

Your own Strange Fake quote:

Strange Fake said:
Humph... So, a Master saw Saber on TV and decided to send in Assassin. We can't do anything physical to a Servant while it's in spirit form, but it's hard to imagine that it will stay that way for long.
A Servant in spirit form was incapable of taking any offensive or defensive measures. If a Master or other mage possessed the means of attacking a spirit body, they ran the risk of being one-sidedly annihilated. Consequently, remaining in spirit form around hostile Servants and Masters was not a winning strategy. The moment required to rematerialize could also create a fatal opening in a battle of instants.

The above gives that it would be the Master or an opponent mage that might possess a means of attacking a spiritual corpora -- not that every Servant would certainly possess the capacity to do so.

Yes, it is the case that in spiritual form, a Servant isn't impervious to objects imbued with mana, and perhaps also certain Mysteries; and that a Servant's armaments would most certainly be imbued with one or both -- but it isn't the case that a Servant is unconditionally capable of getting the jump on an opponent Servant simply because the other party isn't manifest.

Unrelatedly, also translated by McJon on BL:

How to Defeat A Servant said:
When a Heroic Spirit emerges into this world, he first acquires a Spiritual Core. The Heroic Spirit then materializes as the body envelopes this Spiritual Core. In order to defeat a Heroic Spirit, one must inflict damage to the Spiritual Core. The Spiritual Core gradually diminishes as a result of massive magical energy expenditure or sustaining bodily damage. Under these adverse conditions, the Heroic Spirit's expenditure of magical energy will escalate, and should damage be inflicted through powerful magical energy, curse, or Noble Phantasm, the Spiritual Core will be destroyed, and the Heroic Spirit will no long be able to remain materialized. The heart and head are connected directly to the Spiritual Core, thus they are the weaknesses of Heroic Spirits. Sustaining damage at these locations will significantly weaken the Spiritual Core.

all fictions · May 21, 2018

I was wondering why I got quoted

Nine · May 21, 2018

You're conflating what I said in terms of "has magical energy" and "has mystery" with "can deal spiritual damage".

A fireball you made with magecraft has the former but not the latter unless you did something weird to it. Something like imaginary numbers, on the other hand, has both.

A Ghost-Liner class spiritual entity has both because it's a spiritual entity in the first place. Regardless of the body being materialized or not, that's its nature.

Either way I don't really have a horse in this race, but yeah you seem to be misunderstanding me.

fallacies · May 21, 2018

Nine said:
You're conflating what I said in terms of "has magical energy" and "has mystery" with "can deal spiritual damage".

Nine said:
A Servant's attack has mystery, magical energy, and can hurt spiritual bodies.

When you bridge them with an "and," it looks like you're saying they have all three attributes at the same time.

Mizu · May 21, 2018

What would happen if the Church discovered another person with immortality similar to Ciel's? According to the girl's Nasu wiki entry they imprisoned and repeatedly tried to kill her for a month due to being both immortal and a heretic, before being inducted into the Burial Agency branch after that (probs because 'immortal' = good at killing vampire). Would something similar happen to anyone else captured by the Church?

Hm. Actually, what would be the reaction of the Magus' Association to someone with immortality akin to Ciel's? I assume capture and experimentation in an attempt to reproduce it, but that could simply be fanon.

all fictions · May 21, 2018

"According to wiki"

Mizu · May 21, 2018

all fictions said:
"According to wiki"

I haven't read Tsukihime yet, so it's all I have to go off. I'll be reading the VN this weekend, but as of now I'm largely clueless as to what Tsukihime involves.

Krika · May 21, 2018

Mizu said:
I haven't read Tsukihime yet, so it's all I have to go off. I'll be reading the VN this weekend, but as of now I'm largely clueless as to what Tsukihime involves.

This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair. This chair.

GilliamYaeger · May 21, 2018

Mizu said:
What would happen if the Church discovered another person with immortality similar to Ciel's? According to the girl's Nasu wiki entry they imprisoned and repeatedly tried to kill her for a month due to being both immortal and a heretic, she got taken by the Burial Agency after that. Would something similar happen to anyone else captured by the Church?

Hm. Actually, what would be the reaction of the Magus' Association to someone with immortality akin to Ciel's? I assume capture and experimentation in an attempt to reproduce it, but that could simply be fanon.

The Church's main horse in that particular race was that she was Roa's former host. If they found someone else with a similar method of immortality, their interest would be heavily tied to the circumstances.

Magi would instantly slap a Sealing Designation on you because the immortality is heavily connected to the Root.

fallacies · May 21, 2018

GilliamYaeger said:
Magi would instantly slap a Sealing Designation on you because the immortality is heavily connected to the Root.

Not precisely "because it's heavily connected to the Root."
More that "it's a rare ability, and we might not get another chance to witness it / study it."

Given what we've so far seen or have been told regarding modern magi, there's as far as we know no explicit presumption at the outset of an evaluation for viability of a Sealing Designation as to how close or far some capability is to the Root; even though we've also been told before that anything inexhaustible or replenishable without restriction is probably related in some way to the Principle of Cycles, from the Age of Divinities -- wherein humans walked closer to the Root.

That is, "circumstances of Sealing Designation" and "judgment of proximity to the Root" are matters that come up at different points within the source material, and aren't directly associated with one another in the canon.

Mizu · May 21, 2018

GilliamYaeger said:
Magi would instantly slap a Sealing Designation on you because the immortality is heavily connected to the Root.

What's a Sealing Designation in the first place? I think Touko has one, but it doesn't effect her living her life normally somehow?

Ford Prefect · May 21, 2018

Mizu said:
What's a Sealing Designation in the first place? I think Touko has one, but it doesn't effect her living her life normally somehow?

It's a recognition that you have achieved such remarkable talents that it should be preserved for future generations, which essentially means being locked up forever.

It's basically a type of Association arrest warrant, and the rarest and most significant.

fallacies · May 21, 2018

Mizu said:
What's a Sealing Designation in the first place? I think Touko has one, but it doesn't effect her living her life normally somehow?

If the relative value / rarity of the implementation of Mystery that you've arrived upon is deemed to exceed your worth as a human being of free agency (that is, if the Association deems you unworthy or incapable of properly researching your Mystery) -- Enforcers are sent to apprehend you. Your fate becomes a matter of running and hiding from Enforcers for the rest of your life; living as a lab rat in the care of the Association; being preserved as a specimen in some state absent of agency -- maybe dead; or spending the rest of your life confined and under observation.

GilliamYaeger · May 21, 2018

Mizu said:
What's a Sealing Designation in the first place? I think Touko has one, but it doesn't effect her living her life normally somehow?

Basically it means you're the lucky winner of a luxury resort stay courtesy of the Magi Association! Except it's not luxury so much as it is being stored in formaldehyde. To quote the wiki:

Sealing Designations (封印指定, Fūin Shitei?) are edicts handed down by the Mage's Association to maintain and protect special thaumaturgical abilities which cannot be acquired through study. Said to be a title of the "greatest honor", those marked are deemed "precious", causing the Association to mobilize the greatest effort to secure their flesh and blood, their body's potential. Those designated are to be incarcerated, becoming samples preserved in their present conditions and levels of ability. It is an outrage to those who are designated not because of it being the equivalent of a death sentence, but rather because it is an affront to their status as prominent magi. They who have spent their lives devoted to their research will automatically reject a situation in which they will be unable to continue. Genuine sealing designations are extremely rare, and those who pursue them, Enforcers, will be lucky to pursue even one in an entire decade.[4] Normally limited to those of greater magical pedigree, Norikata Emiya, the fourth head of the Emiya family, is noted to be a genius who rose to the rank of receiving a designation despite being of a shallow generation.[5]

After you've received a designation, you've pretty much got three choices. You can be frozen in carbonite forever, which pretty much nobody does mostly out of pride, you can go into hiding and the Magi Association will just sort of make half-hearted token attempts at retrieving you as long as you keep to yourself and you're not special enough to go after immediately (though the Clock Tower will keep you under surveillance), or you can go full mad scientist because the worst that'll happen to you if the Association catches you is, as stated previously, being frozen in carbonite forever, meaning this is a fantastic opportunity for reckless human experimentation.

The Imperator · May 21, 2018

GilliamYaeger said:
Basically it means you're the lucky winner of a luxury resort stay courtesy of the Magi Association! Except it's not luxury so much as it is being stored in formaldehyde. To quote the wiki:

After you've received a designation, you've pretty much got three choices. You can be frozen in carbonite forever, which pretty much nobody does mostly out of pride, you can go into hiding and the Magi Association will just sort of make half-hearted token attempts at retrieving you as long as you keep to yourself and you're not special enough to go after immediately (though the Clock Tower will keep you under surveillance), or you can go full mad scientist because the worst that'll happen to you if the Association catches you is, as stated previously, being frozen in carbonite forever, meaning this is a fantastic opportunity for reckless human experimentation.

Ah, the Emiya defense. Truly the best of paths to take.

Soulgazer · May 22, 2018

It's kinda a shitty policy. Mage makes breakthrough, let's freeze him and...do what, exactly? I'd assume Grands or other high ranking magi would take on the research, but even Grands get designations.

Look to the Left · May 22, 2018

Soulgazer said:
It's kinda a shitty policy. Mage makes breakthrough, let's freeze him and...do what, exactly? I'd assume Grands or other high ranking magi would take on the research, but even Grands get designations.

Maybe it a sign of how systematically desperate mage society has gone?

People tend to do crazy things with desperate. Why not organizations?

Ford Prefect · May 22, 2018

If we had a dollar for every obviously dumb thing in the Mage Association we could probably overcome the Tohsaka money curse.

linkhyrule5 · May 22, 2018

I mean, fundamentally it's a shameless excuse to steal people's research when they get really close. The Mage's Association isn't really a collaborative effort to reach the Root, it's more of a vague detente/neutral-ish adjudicator between sovereign magi. Nobody's interested in protecting the rights of people who are about to reach the Root because everyone thinks it's not going to be them, it'll be their great-great-grandkids.

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