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Type Moon General

Actually, we haven't done Powerlevels yet.

...

Ryougi Shiki could totally beat Heracles.
 
Found a similar pic.

Powerlevels still the thing we're low on.
And I assume Ryougi VS Heracles doesn't include 「 」?:p
 
True Assassin vs Shiki:

"Zabaniya! Git gud, scrub!"

And I like Hundred Faced Assassin's chances as well. (Shiki needs to stab a hundred times. Assassin only needs to stab once.)
 
Wade Garrett said:
I'm not sure that Archer being memorialized by history de facto means he accomplished huge amounts of good following his ideals.

After all, Gilles de Rais, Hassan of the Devil's Arm, Medea, and Medusa were all immortalized by history as well.

And Heroic Spirit Emiya is very much a broken man (what with the whole drive to commit paradox suicide by killing his past self thing) and kind of a dick ("Sure, Caster ate all those people, but if we let her escape she'll help take out Berserker. Oh, now she's torturing Saber. Eh, I could try to stop that, but instead I'll hang out by the front door of the church and wait for my cunning plan to play out.")
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That's mostly because of what came after his death. He was pretty cool about having to die for his ideals. He was not cool about having to betray his ideals for potentially all eternity after his death.

Grue said:

That reminds me. I need to actually get round to finishing reading Heaven's Feel.
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You're missing the lore and mechanics debate.
Mortifer said:
Actually, we haven't done Powerlevels yet.

...

Ryougi Shiki could totally beat Heracles.
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Well, if it was 「」 then she can do it through voidhax. Though none of the Shiki are as fast or as strong as Servants, so they can't pierce his lines and dots. Apparently. Don't ask me.

Well, Ryougi could probably kill the Servant-Master link given enough time, probably Tohno too but it would most likely come with the bonus of death for him, and remembering Nasu's track record that seems to be the kind of shits he would pull of he ever want to contradict his statement of the Shiki not being able to defeat Servants. Which come to think of it, did he ever actually said they can't kill Servants as opposed to not being able to defeat or match them or something?
yes, i'm doing this on purpose, no i'm not sorry
 
Xellos said:
I thought you said not to state the obvious.
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Mortifer said:
That's obvious. Even more obvious then the fact that Karna could stomp all the participants in both wars combined. With Alter Saber filling in the second Arthuria slot, and Karna giving them enough time that someone can Command Seal the two Gilgamesh's so that they stop flirting.
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Fine, Medusa can beat Medea.

Xellos said:
The various Shiki's versus Servants are overblown anyway.

Nrvnqsr Chaos vs Gilles de Rais.

Discuss.
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Chaos wins, with all his OM NOM NOM NOM NOM!
 
Given enough preparation time, I'd say Gilles. His Horrors are from an entirely different dimension with entirely different laws. They're basically Cthulhu-spawns. Even disregarding the Lovecraft implications, we all know that things goes bonkers in Nasuverse the moment anything Alien are brought into the equation.
 
Feng Lengshun said:
Given enough preparation time, I'd say Gilles. His Horrors are from an entirely different dimension with entirely different laws. They're basically Cthulhu-spawns. Even disregarding the Lovecraft implications, we all know that things goes bonkers in Nasuverse the moment anything Alien are brought into the equation.
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:Citation Needed:
 
Feng Lengshun said:
Again, it's probably rooted in my Eastern upbringing. I do know that abuses tend to subvert you, even harder if you've tried to reach out and no one helped you, but the think is, I never see her trying to reach out at all. I mean, it's nice that she finds a way to live in a peace with all those, but why not try to fix her life in a more real way?
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Someone did try to help her: Kariya. He failed, to put it lightly, and his attempt backfired rather badly. Here's the Fate/Zero epilogue scene that is from Sakura's PoV. (No idea at the quality of the translation, sorry.)

Sakura stared at the corpse of the man who had fallen before her in the icy-cold darkness of the worm storage. This man was muttering to himself even till the end, and a satisfied smile was on his face even as he died.

How odd. Why would this man return here? Why did he still want to live when he was in such a despicable state?

Although Sakura couldn't understand why, she clearly knew why he was in anguish, and why he was dead.

– You must not disobey Grandfather.

Everyone in the Makiri house knew that, but why wouldn't this man obey that rule? He was an adult, but he was helplessly stupid.

Why, why would this man choose such a meaningless death?

After a brief consideration – ahh, that was why. Sakura suddenly understood it.

This must be her lesson tonight.

A lesson to teach her what would happen to those who disobeyed Grandfather's will. This man died here so Sakura could see a real example with her own eyes.

Yes, I understood, Grandfather.

The girl nodded obediently. She burned this scene deep into her memory while she stared, unmoving, at the corpse surrounded by worms that was gradually becoming smaller and smaller.
 
Jorlem said:
Someone did try to help her: Kariya. He failed, to put it lightly, and his attempt backfired rather badly. Here's the Fate/Zero epilogue scene that is from Sakura's PoV. (No idea at the quality of the translation, sorry.)

Sakura stared at the corpse of the man who had fallen before her in the icy-cold darkness of the worm storage. This man was muttering to himself even till the end, and a satisfied smile was on his face even as he died.

How odd. Why would this man return here? Why did he still want to live when he was in such a despicable state?

Although Sakura couldn't understand why, she clearly knew why he was in anguish, and why he was dead.

– You must not disobey Grandfather.

Everyone in the Makiri house knew that, but why wouldn't this man obey that rule? He was an adult, but he was helplessly stupid.

Why, why would this man choose such a meaningless death?

After a brief consideration – ahh, that was why. Sakura suddenly understood it.

This must be her lesson tonight.

A lesson to teach her what would happen to those who disobeyed Grandfather's will. This man died here so Sakura could see a real example with her own eyes.

Yes, I understood, Grandfather.

The girl nodded obediently. She burned this scene deep into her memory while she stared, unmoving, at the corpse surrounded by worms that was gradually becoming smaller and smaller.
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Still not her. That was another person. You can't fix a problem without taking the first step on your own. And besides, Kariya was kind of an idiot. Like The Importance of Proper Communication said, he should just mention that Zouken aren't actually teaching her magecraft at all.

And are we really still going to continue this line of debate?
 
Something that's been bugging me:

You're Kariya. Your whole motivation is to save Sakura, to the point that you went willingly into the Matou Happy Funtime Sunshine pit for weeks at a time.

You have just summoned Lancelot.

Why not blow all three Command Seals on "Lancelot. Obliterate Zouken completely. Leave not a single shred of his flesh intact!" And to hell with the Grail War?
 
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Wade Garrett said:
Something that's been bugging me:

You're Kariya. Your whole motivation is to save Sakura, to the point that you went willingly into the Matou Happy Funtime Sunshine pit for weeks at a time.

You have just summoned Lancelot.

Why not blow all three Command Seals on "Lancelot. Obliterate Zouken completely. Leave not a single shred of his flesh intact!" And to hell with the Grail War?
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IIRC, his worms are presumably set to kill on the moment of his death. At the very least, it's very easy for Zouken to make Kariya believe that's true.

Sakura still has worms inside her, much like Kariya. It's not like Berserker can safely remove them. In fact that might be part of the reason why Zouken set him with Berserker. A Caster could conceivably fix the problem.

If Lancelot kills Zouken, his worms could go crazy and just eat all of Sakura's organs.
 
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Xellos said:
IIRC, his worms are presumably set to kill on the moment of his death. At the very least, it's very easy for Zouken to make Kariya believe that's true.

Sakura still has worms inside her, much like Kariya. It's not like Berserker can safely remove them. In fact that might be part of the reason why Zouken set him with Berserker. A Caster could conceivably fix the problem.

If Lancelot kills Zouken, his worms could go crazy and just eat all of Sakura's organs.
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Good point, I never thought about that.
 
Wade Garrett said:
Why not blow all three Command Seals on "Lancelot. Obliterate Zouken completely. Leave not a single shred of his flesh intact!" And to hell with the Grail War?
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Besides what Xellos said - perhaps, magical contracts. Never mentioned, but if Kiritsugi uses them, Zouken probably can make his stray heir sign something like that, too.

Besides, Kariya wasn't really at his best during the war, and worms apperently did a number on his brainmeats.
 
Xellos said:
Nrvnqsr Chaos vs Gilles de Rais.

Discuss.
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I'm leaning towards eternal standstill. Both of them are capable of summoning essentially infinite number of minions, and they are close enough in terms of strength that it is very unlikely for one side to gain a decisive advantage over the other. Also, Gilles doesn't have anything capable of killing Chaos, and given his infinite wall of minions, it would be hard pressed for any of Chao's beasts to get close enough to attack him. Lacking a way to deal permanent damage to Chaos or disrupt Caster's noble phantasm, I really don't see a way that either of them can win decisively.
 
Wade Garrett said:
Something that's been bugging me:

You're Kariya. Your whole motivation is to save Sakura, to the point that you went willingly into the Matou Happy Funtime Sunshine pit for weeks at a time.

You have just summoned Lancelot.

Why not blow all three Command Seals on "Lancelot. Obliterate Zouken completely. Leave not a single shred of his flesh intact!" And to hell with the Grail War?
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Pretty much as Xellos said. You don't know how exactly does he stay alive, but it's obvious that killing him won't make him dead, and there will be collateral even when it does, or doesn't for that matter.
 
Mortifer said:
How?
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For one thing, research and get a Servant that can save a girl, most preferably a Caster. Also, he should know how Zouken is like, since he left the Matou family because of him, so he shouldn't have asked him for anything. Finally, he knows, or should suspect that Zouken is invested deeply in the Holy Grail War, so he should enter and kill him with a Servant just to spite him.
 
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