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Type Moon General

linkhyrule5 said:
Well, I mean, that's not entirely true. You could orchestrate, wage, and win a Grail War, and so long as the Third Magic could, in theory, grant someone Circuits (and I suspect it could), a wish upon a seven-Servant Grail could grant everyone in the world a decent number.

But good fucking luck with that. The Einzbern have been trying for generations, and, like, sure, we make fun of their bad decisions, but ultimately plans in general are really hard to make. Your best bet would be summoning Zhuge Liang or something with your own resources, and then summoning a second Servant for the War. And even then maybe your opponent rolls Gilgamesh.

And actually, there is a route to power for people without Magic Circuits - technology. Who do you think made the Black Barrel? Who made the prototype Trismegistus, a magitech "analyzer of information" that could reach across the entire Domain of Man? Who's sitting on enough apocalyptic devices to end the world seven times over?

The Atlas Academy's practice of alchemy does not require Magic Circuits. And a skilled alchemist with the right gear can absolutely go toe-to-toe with a magus - or even, at the high end, Servants. Zepia turned himself into a phenomenon, a memetic superstorm, through alchemy, something even Tohno Shiki couldn't kill permanently. (I think. It's been a while since I played Melty Blood, and I don't think I ever beat it.)

The pretty lights all go to the magi, but the true power is, as ever, in the hands of scientists and technicians.
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Atlas alchemy does require circuits, they just don't have strong ones that can do physical interference magecraft.
 
biscuitz1 said:
Wait I thought alchemy required circuits? so there are mysteries able to be realised without circuits?
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Oh yes. Formalcraft can be enacted without your own Magic Circuits. It's slow and often painful, but it works - and it's also the most basic element in that art. We haven't really seen much of true alchemy, the path to power of an alchemist, the way we got to get inside Shirou's head as he grew more powerful, but realistically they must have something better. Or an automated version.

(Now there's a thought. A printing press for spell circles. ... I betcha something like that was the middle ground between that and the magitech computer that is Trismegistus.)
 
biscuitz1 said:
Wait I thought alchemy required circuits? so there are mysteries able to be realised without circuits? Beasts lair kinda insulted me when I asked a similar question...
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You didn't read the translation I posted three pages ago, I guess?
Asunder said:
Atlas alchemy does require circuits, they just don't have strong ones that can do physical interference magecraft.
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Actually, where is it actually stated that their Alchemy requires Circuits?
 
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biscuitz1 said:
Yeah I know, It just rubs me the wrong way is all, along with things like 'Oh your world line is too nice, well fucking die' that really makes me wonder bout nasu point of view on things, Ironically enough most magi who become servants seem far less sociopathic than ones that don't I mean look at Solomon for example.
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Solomon was a pupped with no sense of humanity at all. Merlin is a superdimensional mosquito who willingly walked into a trap because he didn't understand humans. The other Solomon was obsessed with creation golems and automatons.

Some of the AoG "mages", perhaps, but they are more priests then modern mages.

linkhyrule5 said:
The pretty lights all go to the magi, but the true power is, as ever, in the hands of scientists and technicians.
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TMverse mages are basically scientists, just with magic instead of science.
 
Soulgazer said:
S
TMverse mages are basically scientists, just with magic instead of science.
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Enh. Scientists don't really... real world scientists unfortunately don't get a whole lot of power as a result of their work. See the SMBC "Falling Problem" - just because you can calculate exactly how long it takes for you to hit the ground, how hard you hit it, how much you'll bounce, to a very high degree of accuracy, doesn't mean you don't splat when it happens.

Magi can change that. Alchemists can only change that by making flying machines in advance. In that regard I think alchemists are closer to IRL technicians than magi.

And if they need "just a little prana" or something to catalyze their actions, that sort of low-level stuff is exactly what Formalcraft is "for", narratively speaking. (Or practically speaking, for that matter.) So it wouldn't make much sense for them to need "some but nonzero," as might otherwise be the case.
 
fallacies said:
You didn't read the translation I posted three pages ago, I guess?

Actually, where is it actually stated that it requires Circuits?
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We don't really get to see the process of alchemy in action but alchemists are magi and magic circuits are the proof of being a magi. Nasu never speaks about alchemists lacking circuits entirely just that their's are very few so they compensate with tools. Basically if alchemy didn't require circuits at all then why would Nasu mentioned that they still have them.
 
Asunder said:
We don't really get to see the process of alchemy in action but alchemists are magi and magic circuits are the proof of being a magi. Nasu never speaks about alchemists lacking circuits entirely just that their's are very few so they compensate with tools. Basically if alchemy didn't require circuits at all then why would Nasu mentioned that they still have them.
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Extra CCC Material:
人間とは運動機能（五感）をもった類い希なる計算装置である。
They possessed great calculation and measurement ability that is rare to manifest naturally in a normal human (and their five senses).
情報を収集し、解析し、生まれ出る数々の問題に、労働力としてダイレクトに対応できるよう進化した知的生命体が我々人間である、というのが彼らの信条だった。
It was their belief that humans have evolved to gather information, analyze it and then directly solve any problems perceived.
その正しさは魔術の絶えたEXTRA世界で奇しくも証明された。
The correctness of this idea was somewhat proven in the magic-devoid world of Fate/Extra.
アトラスの錬金術師たちは魔術回路が乏しく、魔力に頼った活動をしてこなかった者たちである。
The Alchemists of Atlas have poor magic circuits, and did not lead their lives relying on magic.
魔力に頼っていなかった（正しくは『頼れなかった』のだが）彼らは魔力枯渇の後でも魔術の徒として探求を続けられた。
As they are Alchemists who did not rely on magic (or to be precise couldn't rely on magic) even as the decline of magic circuits progressed, they could continue their pursuit and study of magic.
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Not my translation. Atlas Alchemists "could not" rely on magecraft.
biscuitz1 said:
I am curious fallacy, does formalcraft require circuits? and sorry for not reading it, i read parts I assure you.
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On Day 7 of the Fate Route, Rin says:
"Then I'll start off with something simple. You know that magical energy is what you need to use magic, right? You can actually refer to anything that can activate magic as 'magical energy'. There's an infinite variety of magical energy. There are some that perform magic using their force of will, and there are some that that use magic by paying a price other than themselves. You know this much, right?"
"Yeah. You mean the 'mana' (large source) and the 'odo' (small source), right? The large source is the magical energy in the world that fills nature. The small source is the magical energy that people can create themselves."
"That's right, well done. Then, let's start with magic that uses the large source.
"Okay. Magi that lack an accumulated lineage of magi… like you, Shirou… use something that already has form to make magical energy. This is a method established as a process in ancient times, using offerings and rituals to make contact with the divine mystery.
"They prepare a price to pay since their powers are not sufficient. This is called the Formalcraft. This way, magic can be activated even if the caster's magical energy is sparse. This is because the magical energy used comes not from the caster but from somewhere else, so the caster only needs to perform the ritual."
"…But, well, you can't do it if you don't have the knowledge. It's impossible for you right now, and anyway, such a bloody method doesn't suit you."
"…Right. I also don't want to sacrifice a chicken or spend the whole evening praying in a magic circle.
"Then putting that aside, next is the small source. So in other words, magic that is cast using the magi's own power. I don't think I need to explain, but this is the basic use of magic for someone like you and me. Your 'strengthening' is a magic that relies on your own Magic Circuit, not on borrowing anyone else's power, right?"
I nod. It seems the conversation is going into the main point.
"Well, the function that creates magical energy for you the 'Magic Circuit' is a hereditary constitution that is passed down the ancestral lineage of magi. The Magic Circuit is trained over many generations, and passed on to the descendants, becoming more powerful. The child of a magi lineage is already fit to use magic just because of that. It's not fair, but it means we're different from the start."
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The caster needs only to enact the ritual required, and to provide the necessary sacrifices. Given that we now know what Circuits originally were, it's fairly clear that Formalcraft is unrelated to Circuit-based magecraft.
 
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I suggest using the third red color for important stuff.

Or gold (third yellow). That actually works pretty well for readability.
 
I asked this a while back, but noone seemed to answer We saw the babylonian underworld in f/go and I hear someone goes to heaven in fate/apoc, So i'm kinda confused over hte whole 'souls are recycled' business unless thats just a fact for the age of man and the AOG had afterlives? If so It kinda makes me think the AOG should be restarted regardless of the amount of blood spilt in the insuring changes, I think afterlives are rather important for most people.
 
fallacies said:
On Day 7 of the Fate Route, Rin says:
For you to actually have Circuits, your lineage would need accumulated history. However, Formalcraft can be used without that; the caster needs only to enact the ritual required. Given that we now know what Circuits originally were, it's fairly clear that Formalcraft is unrelated to Circuit-based magecraft.
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That formalcraft doesn't require the existence of circuits at all doesn't really track with what we see in the VN with Shinji needing to get a magic cup to ever have a chance of using magecraft and the repeated assertion that you need magic circuits to be a magus.
 
Asunder said:
That formalcraft doesn't require the existence of circuits at all doesn't really track with what we see in the VN with Shinji needing to get a magic cup to ever have a chance of using magecraft and the repeated assertion that you need magic circuits to be a magus.
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Your acting like Nasu does't flip flop...
 
Asunder said:
That formalcraft doesn't require the existence of circuits at all doesn't really track with what we see in the VN with Shinji needing to get a magic cup to ever have a chance of using magecraft and the repeated assertion that you need magic circuits to be a magus.
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That's because standing around all night performing rituals and beheading chickens happens not to be considered proper magecraft by people like Shinji (does he even know that Formalcraft exists?). Proper magecraft, in certain people's opinions, is strictly the fine art of having things like Goetia on call for your Gaia-hacking requests.
 
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biscuitz1 said:
I asked this a while back, but noone seemed to answer We saw the babylonian underworld in f/go and I hear someone goes to heaven in fate/apoc, So i'm kinda confused over hte whole 'souls are recycled' business unless thats just a fact for the age of man and the AOG had afterlives? If so It kinda makes me think the AOG should be restarted regardless of the amount of blood spilt in the insuring changes, I think afterlives are rather important for most people.
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I'm rather less fond of the gods running around without a care for humanity, however. Gods don't exactly have good track records.
biscuitz1 said:
Your acting like Nasu does't flip flop...
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He flipflops much less than he's reputed to.
 
biscuitz1 said:
I asked this a while back, but noone seemed to answer We saw the babylonian underworld in f/go and I hear someone goes to heaven in fate/apoc, So i'm kinda confused over hte whole 'souls are recycled' business unless thats just a fact for the age of man and the AOG had afterlives? If so It kinda makes me think the AOG should be restarted regardless of the amount of blood spilt in the insuring changes, I think afterlives are rather important for most people.
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Being permitted to stay in Ereshkigal's Underworld means that she thinks your soul is pretty enough to keep inside a cage. Souls that she doesn't care for pass on to recycling, as far as I recall?
 
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fallacies said:
Being permitted to stay in Ereshkigal's Underworld means that she thinks your soul is pretty enough to keep inside a cage. Souls that she doesn't care for pass on, as far as I recall?
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Hmm that does suck, but what happened to it after the age of the gods? and by pass on you mean get grinded into soul materials? I'm still of the opinion I would rather have a afterlife than being grinded into dust.
 
biscuitz1 said:
Hmm that does suck, but what happened to it after the age of the gods? and by pass on you mean get grinded into soul materials? I'm still of the opinion I would rather have a afterlife than being grinded into dust.
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Prior to her summoning, Ereshkigal had been excluded into the Reverse of the World as of Gilgamesh's rejection of the gods, and was essentially evicted from the Underworld -- which inexplicably remained within the Domain of Man despite its ruler's absence. Without Ereshkigal, the Underworld's functions gradually ceased to properly operate, as far as I recall? Eventually (presumably, some centuries later), it was excluded from the Domain of Man as well, replaced by dirt and oil and the fossil record and other boring things.

And yes, by pass on, I mean pass on.
 
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With regards to death - well, yes. Turns out death sucks. Should probably try and not die. And maybe make the rest of your fellow humans not die while you're at it.

(Hm. Would life extension through medicine run into the same soul rot problems that Zouken did, or was that an artifact of his constant body-swapping and his inhuman true body?)
 
Soul rot will be a problem. And if you found a method that was true immortality, spreading it across humanity sounds like a good way to get Akasha to bring out the universal shears.
 
Soulgazer said:
Soul rot will be a problem. And if you found a method that was true immortality, spreading it across humanity sounds like a good way to get Akasha to bring out the universal shears.
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Why? Scientific progress changes the laws of magecraft under it. In some ways I suspect that you can't have a non-scientific reaction to a scientific treatment.

Also Akasha won't care, it'd be Gaia/Alaya. And I was thinking more "a few hundred years from now" anyway, long enough that most worlds have reached that point of development. It's not like the invention of "computation" got sheared. Or heart transplants, for that matter.
 
Soulgazer said:
Soul rot will be a problem. And if you found a method that was true immortality, spreading it across humanity sounds like a good way to get Akasha to bring out the universal shears.
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This is why I find the idea of timeline pruning FUCKING offensive, the idea that we must be always be assholes, the idea that we must never get things like immortality or utopia., the idea that world peace is impossible and that must always be grovelling in the dirt.
 
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