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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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Maxin_inc said:
@4WheelSword could you give us a list of recognizable symbols of space/planetary seafaring on Home (IE the Anchor or numerous seabirds irl) for inspiration in logo design? Or even just symbolic imagery of Home like colors and whatnot.
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This is the type of anchor you should be considering, and the types of sea birds you get are strange, super broad wings with fur as much as feathers.
But also that's very wet navy, which the space warfare branch has nothing to do with. The spacy should probably be thinking about docking arms, the shape of the interplanetary cruiser and the three planets of Home.

Magnificate said:
@4WheelSword BTW, if I'm reading it right, chaff canisters are better than sand canisters. Why aren't we using them for our sand-caster weapons?
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Chaff does not provide protection against laser, energy or particle weapons.
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Uhhh?
 
I like Home Exploration and Space Defense Corps (HESDC) as an alternate.

We're also not a Navy and I think we should avoid navy/naval terms; if anything we're an aerial organization and should look at that for inspiration.

I am unfortunately at work so can't work up any heraldry, but I'm in favor of light orange/blue combo. Orange/white/black feels a bit too sterile to my tastes, although I like Mandicate's design no. 4.

My other thought would be triangle of three planetoids imposed over a sunburst.
 
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[X] No

-or-

[X] Write-In: Home Stellar Patrol

[X] Write-in: Home Stellar Service

We're NOT a navy! Space isn't an ocean! A naval cruiser can't flip over upside down, float over top of an opponent, and spike them at close range with cannon!

Sincerely, someone who's deeply annoyed by space navy stereotypes.
 
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Rat King said:
We're also not a Navy and I think we should avoid navy/naval terms; if anything we're an aerial organization and should look at that for inspiration.
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Okay though, but actually there are a lot of ways in which we are a Navy.

All metaphor aside, Navies are the military service where there is a tradition of giving great discretion to individual commanders because they are going to be in charge of ships that are out of communication with higher command for weeks and months at a time. The captains or squadron commanders have to make decisions on the spot, doing what they think best. More, they are making those decisions while in command of the most powerful mobile military assets to exist, ships capable of bringing a planet to its knees through orbital bombardment. There is no chance to call home and ask if you should support this side or that side in a conflict. The commanders just have to decide.

This is the real reason that science fiction interstellar ships are thought of like a navy. Because in this sense they are organized like a Navy and have to be commanded like a pre-modern Navy. There is no reason to look for an aerial organization for inspiration.

So yes... yes, I would argue that we are a Navy in the ways that matter.

Coyote Niff said:
We're NOT a navy! Space isn't an ocean! A naval cruiser can't flip over upside down, float over top of an opponent, and spike them at close range with cannon!
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See above for my argument that we are like a Navy in terms of how our people have to operate. Don't be so literal about oceans and water.
 
Briefvoice said:
The captains or squadron commanders have to make decisions on the spot, doing what they think best. More, they are making those decisions while in command of the most powerful mobile military assets to exist, ships capable of bringing a planet to its knees through orbital bombardment. There is no chance to call home and ask if you should support this side or that side in a conflict. The commanders just have to decide.
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Respectfully, I could say the exact same things about command authority in air forces, especially those charged with nuclear deterrent. The real reason for space navy is because it lets classic SFF authors do their best Master and Commander/Treasure Island/Mutiny on The Bounty, complete with stupid tasseled hat and laser cutlass. We can recognize the romantic tropes and reject them.
 
Oh, I like Home Stellar Patrol.

Briefvoice said:
Okay though, but actually there are a lot of ways in which we are a Navy.

All metaphor aside, Navies are the military service where there is a tradition of giving great discretion to individual commanders because they are going to be in charge of ships that are out of communication with higher command for weeks and months at a time. The captains or squadron commanders have to make decisions on the spot, doing what they think best. More, they are making those decisions while in command of the most powerful mobile military assets to exist, ships capable of bringing a planet to its knees through orbital bombardment. There is no chance to call home and ask if you should support this side or that side in a conflict. The commanders just have to decide.

This is the real reason that science fiction interstellar ships are thought of like a navy. Because in this sense they are organized like a Navy and have to be commanded like a pre-modern Navy. There is no reason to look for an aerial organization for inspiration.

So yes... yes, I would argue that we are a Navy in the ways that matter.
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I would argue it's not a Navy; it's groups of strike and long range craft operating in bombardment and strike (and exploration) roles. The only reason we think of that as the navy is because that's the well that science fiction has traditionally drawn on. I see no reason to keep that up.

[X] No
[X] Write-In: Home Stellar Patrol
 
I don't mind the Navy being used as our colloqial name, but I do think the official name should be something different.

That said, it shouldn't be Patrol. Patrol implies duties that are smaller than what we do.
 
Magnificate said:
I don't mind the Navy being used as our colloqial name, but I do think the official name should be something different.

That said, it shouldn't be Patrol. Patrol implies duties that are smaller than what we do.
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Would Service work? That's analogous to early air forces and I think better encompasses the multi-mission role of the Branch as both an exploratory and military force.
 
I'd prefer "Defense" over "Warfare" or remove it entirely ( so Home Space/Stellar Service or Home Space/Stellar Command) to reflect that we're also handling exploration and survey missions but in general I do like the names.
 
Rat King said:
I'd prefer "Defense" over "Warfare" or remove it entirely ( so Home Space/Stellar Service or Home Space/Stellar Command) to reflect that we're also handling exploration and survey missions but in general I do like the names.
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We're handling the exploration at the moment, but it's likely that scouts will become their own semi-civilian service in time.
 
[X] It should be renamed the Home Interstellar Navy (HIN)

Coyote Niff said:
We're NOT a navy! Space isn't an ocean! A naval cruiser can't flip over upside down, float over top of an opponent, and spike them at close range with cannon!
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Submarines can do all of the above, submarines also have a number of similar and comparable design problems to overcome as spacecraft. Also while I can't remember the details off the top of my head, I think IRL military planning has often used submarine warfare as a base to work off for how space warfare would work.

As Briefvoice said, a Navy fits a lot more with what a space military force would have to do than a air force. It is reasonable for a space branch of the military to be an outgrowth of the Navy as they would have the most comparable experience to work off.(e.g. Organising long voyage, ship to ship coordination, coordination of large crews, patrols over vast distances, etc.)

Coyote Niff said:
Would Service work? That's analogous to early air forces and I think better encompasses the multi-mission role of the Branch as both an exploratory and military force.
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For a good chunk of recent history European navies were used as both exploratory and military forces. I do like Service as an alternative, but I feel we fit more as a Navy for what it is we have been doing.

Rat King said:
I would argue it's not a Navy; it's groups of strike and long range craft operating in bombardment and strike (and exploration) roles. The only reason we think of that as the navy is because that's the well that science fiction has traditionally drawn on. I see no reason to keep that up.
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Most navies in history since cannons were put on ships have operated in these roles, also as I have said above there is a fair amount of crossover in what a navy does and what a space military would be expected to do.
 
Halfshadows said:
[X] It should be renamed the Home Interstellar Navy (HIN)

Submarines can do all of the above, submarines also have a number of similar and comparable design problems to overcome as spacecraft. Also while I can't remember the details off the top of my head, I think IRL military planning has often used submarine warfare as a base to work off for how space warfare would work.
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Not to put too fine a point on my critique, but if you have a submarine that can float in the air like a blimp and fire down at a surface opponent, or a class of submarines that can move like the Material Defender's driving it, I think the world's navies would be at your door. My point is that we think about space as an ocean because that's what people used to do-it literally used to be thought of as a massive "liquid sea" of aether. That's why HP Lovecraft made all his aliens sea creature-like! The other reason people think of space as oceanic in fiction is because all the early SFF guys in the postwar boom were naval, and kept the old tropes alive. There's no reason for us to do the same aside from comfort.
 
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