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There is no emotion... (A Jedi Order Quest)

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Voikirium said:
1st: They follow a philosophy of what they call "Final State," as well as the Priority Alpha: an absolute, inviolate oath not to interfere in the affairs of pre-Hyperspace peoples and civilizations; even, it seems, to the extent of allowing such people to die of plague, rather than run the risk of such contamination.
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This reminds me of the Prime Directive from Star Trek, taken to its strictest interpretation.
 
Man, everyone already made the Star Trek and Prime Directive -jokes. :V
 
That said, we do have firsthand experience that they are willing to trade the lives of millions or billions of sentients for...the guarantee that the culture of those doomed sentients will not be affected by outside intervention, even intervention concealed from the perception of those sentients.

It's an interesting viewpoint. I suppose my next question would be "who died and left you in charge? There's a Republic in whose jurisdiction you're operating that's supposed to stand for the rights of sentients and the treating of sentients as equals, with a representational democracy in place to ensure everyone has a voice. It...doesn't always end up working according to the manual though; differences in heritage, in astrographic location, and in socioeconomic status tend to lead to differences in how people are treated, but that's a challenge we find ourselves up against. If you believe so strongly in an egalitarian society where different astrographic cultures are so worthwhile as to be worth the sacrifice of billions of lives, why don't you join with us against these inequalities to more swiftly achieve this egalitarian society you have in mind?"

Granted, I'm not sure there's anybody whose mouth would fit around those words (Mical perhaps?), but it's a counterpoint whose answer I'd be interested to hear.
 
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Barondoctor said:
That said, we do have firsthand experience that they are willing to trade the lives of millions or billions of sentients for...the guarantee that the culture of those doomed sentients will not be affected by outside intervention, even intervention concealed from the perception of those sentients.

It's an interesting viewpoint.
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If by interesting you mean 'wow, it's interesting how these people sure can be monumentally stupid'.

As a philosophical viewpoint it's completely, utterly insipid and indefensible in any way. The only way people come to believe stuff like that is to do so unquestioningly, for it to become a fundamentalist belief that brooks no disagreement or argument. And that certainly sounds like it's the case here. I don't know how they came to be in such a state, but dealing with them will be effectively impossible. Their belief system and culture won't allow them to bend or change in any reasonable span of time. Attempting to reason with them won't work because their belief isn't based on reasoning.

I put fair odds on them eventually starting a war with us 'heretics' just for doing what we do. Maybe avid diplomacy can keep that from happening, but they'll demand compromises involving the unnecessary deaths of billions of sapients that we just can't accede to.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
If by interesting you mean 'wow, it's interesting how these people sure can be monumentally stupid'.

As a philosophical viewpoint it's completely, utterly insipid and indefensible in any way. The only way people come to believe stuff like that is to do so unquestioningly, for it to become a fundamentalist belief that brooks no disagreement or argument. And that certainly sounds like it's the case here. I don't know how they came to be in such a state, but dealing with them will be effectively impossible. Their belief system and culture won't allow them to bend or change in any reasonable span of time. Attempting to reason with them won't work because their belief isn't based on reasoning.

I put fair odds on them eventually starting a war with us 'heretics' just for doing what we do. Maybe avid diplomacy can keep that from happening, but they'll demand compromises involving the unnecessary deaths of billions of sapients that we just can't accede to.
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Barondoctor said:
That said, we do have firsthand experience that they are willing to trade the lives of millions or billions of sentients for...the guarantee that the culture of those doomed sentients will not be affected by outside intervention, even intervention concealed from the perception of those sentients.

It's an interesting viewpoint. I suppose my next question would be "who died and left you in charge? There's a Republic in whose jurisdiction you're operating that's supposed to stand for the rights of sentients and the treating of sentients as equals, with a representational democracy in place to ensure everyone has a voice. It...doesn't always end up working according to the manual though; differences in heritage, in astrographic location, and in socioeconomic status tend to lead to differences in how people are treated, but that's a challenge we find ourselves up against. If you believe so strongly in an egalitarian society where different astrographic cultures are so worthwhile as to be worth the sacrifice of billions of lives, why don't you join with us against these inequalities to more swiftly achieve this egalitarian society you have in mind?"

Granted, I'm not sure there's anybody whose mouth would fit around those words (Mical perhaps?), but it's a counterpoint whose answer I'd be interested to hear.
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Point of order, but Bao-Dur gets the feeling that there is variance in opinion there, and not just all of them unthinkingly spouting the exact same idea of how far is too far.

And the system was in nobody's jurisdiction except the natives.
 
That makes the situation considerably less bad, then. We'll have to see what the variance is like, and what portion of them have the hardline position.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
As a philosophical viewpoint it's completely, utterly insipid and indefensible in any way. The only way people come to believe stuff like that is to do so unquestioningly, for it to become a fundamentalist belief that brooks no disagreement or argument. And that certainly sounds like it's the case here. I don't know how they came to be in such a state, but dealing with them will be effectively impossible. Their belief system and culture won't allow them to bend or change in any reasonable span of time. Attempting to reason with them won't work because their belief isn't based on reasoning.

I put fair odds on them eventually starting a war with us 'heretics' just for doing what we do. Maybe avid diplomacy can keep that from happening, but they'll demand compromises involving the unnecessary deaths of billions of sapients that we just can't accede to.
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This seems to be taking one showing and extrapolating everything around it.....
On the other hand, the clash between perspectives shown would make things tense, but this is just one lone meeting.
Voikirium said:
They say they are from something called "The Yuuzhan-Vong," and they are interceding to stop us because they think a species on that planet is about to make an evolutionary jump to sapience, something it cannot do with the interference of the currently dominant species.

There are echoes of tragedies to come, screaming from this place
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Between the wording of what was going on and QM input implies the situation was more complicated in multiple ways....
 
The Englanderish said:
And so, once again, the Jedi get in bed with the Core.
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Your argument was based on what might happen thousands of years in the future rather than anything relevant to our current interests.

Edit: I personally didn't find it convincing that just because Corellia supported the empire in like 5000 years it meant that they had to support the same stuff now.
 
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The Englanderish said:
And so, once again, the Jedi get in bed with the Core.
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They already were, or at least the architecture is there already for it to happen. Besides, they have a nice cushy bed and plenty of space.

Doesn't mean we can't bunk with the Rim. I propose we have as many Jedi on Rim assignments as we do core and we continue to advocate for the Rim from our better position with the core.
 
jamie96969 said:
Your argument was based on what might happen thousands of years in the future rather than anything relevant to our current interests.

Edit: I personally didn't find it convincing that just because Corellia supported the empire in like 5000 years it meant that they had to support the same stuff now.
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Ultimately that became secondary once I remembered that was the case, supplanted by the simple fact that the human Core is powerful enough without our help and frankly we should be looking to degrade its disbalanced power as things get more stable IMO. But, the vote is over, so let us leave things there I guess.
 
I mean, going from what EU etc sources we have, the Corellian Jedi were pretty chill folks who seem a net improvement for the Order.
 
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Mission Report 3945 BBY Q3
  • Threadmarks
    • 3945 BBY Q3

    Mission 1 (Bao-Dur, 1 Jedi Sentinel, 3 Padawans, the Core)
    -Knight Kador Shirot-

    Now that an entire species is no longer at risk, the Republic has asked us to try and make more sustained contact with the Yuuzhan Vong. At the least we need to know where their space is, so we might cordially ignore each other instead of having more, repeated violations. At most?

    The Sith lurk in the dark. We will need allies to fight them.

    As Grandmaster Bao-Dur has already had contact with them, and as it was quite unfriendly, I will be taking the lead.

    And being very, very careful to not let them know how involved I was with modifying our missiles to carry the payload.

    Mission 2 (Councilor Juhani, Councilor Visas Marr, 1 Jedi Guardian, 3 Padawans, The Mid-Rim)
    -Councilor Juhani-

    Now that our efforts are no longer wasted on attempting to pummel the Czerka shareholders into submission, we can focus on Revan and the Exile's charge towards all of us: to strengthen the Order and the Republic for the return of the Sith.

    On that account, we are currently attached to a small Republic fleet which is escorting a number of refugees to the Mid-Rim to colonize a few life-bearing worlds.

    Notably, each has been scanned to have vast quantities of Lucanium, a sort of unrefined fuel that can be used to help feed the reconstruction efforts throughout the Outer Rim.

    Naturally, the hutts currently supplying said fuel are unlikely to take it lying down.

    Guess how much I care?
    --
    Mission 3 (Councilor Mira, 2 Jedi Sentinels, 3 Padawans, the Outer Rim)
    -Councilor Mira-

    I can feel a roiling mass, just beneath the surface. The Force... is not stagnant here.

    Somebody is in pain, just a klick or two away.

    We're going to help them.
    --
    Mission 4 (Councilor Atton Rand, 1 Jedi Sentinel, 2 Padawans, the Colonies)
    -Councilor Atton Rand-

    Ah, Nar Shaddaa.

    I realize and apologize that this matter is taking me off from the assigned patrol route, so on that note I have the Kid and our Padawans covering there while I investigate personally over here.

    I'm sure they can handle it.
    --
    Mission 5 (Bastila, 1 Jedi Guardian, 1 Padawan, Ossus)
    -Councilor Bastila-

    Corellian ships have arrived in orbit as promised. Currently they are providing sensor support for the Ysanna as they work through the various hardpoints that just managed to survive the nova.

    (+10 Ossus)
    --
    Mission 6 (1 Jedi Guardian, 2 Padawans, Dantooine)
    -Knight Durna-

    Corellian ships have arrived carrying the personal effects of Jedi Padawan Andur Sunrider, husband of Nomi Sunrider. While all of it was of historical interest, more practical was a small journal of his detailing Jedi crafting; how the Jedi crafted everything from the High-Temple and Ossan robes to how to craft lightsaber hilts, forge a crystal, or even how the plumbing system on Coruscant dealt with all of those Jedi.

    Naturally, it will be a great help to fully improving Dantooine.

    (+20 Dantooine)
    --
    Mission 7 (Special, Telos)
    -Initiate Volthol-

    The Corellians have come through in a pretty major way: They've had their erstwhile allies from the Eleventh Alsakan Conflict help bring the Academy's power grid up to snuff, making it much, much more efficient than before.
    (+10 Telos)
    -
    Mission 1 (Bao-Dur, 1 Jedi Sentinel, 3 Padawans, the Core)
    -Knight Kador Shirot-

    We have located what seems to be a Yuuzhan Vong colony a few dozen lightyears from the world Ardo: Vizan Vahk. On its surface, massive, coral bred towers with mighty domiciles built into them rise high into the sky in mathematically perfect, arrogantly shaped grids, split by acre upon acre of vast plain, though through the Force one can feel the connection between the life of the natural world and the Yuuzhan Vong.

    Whatever their faults, one cannot deny that the vong are masters of the biological arts.

    When we arrived in system, we were cordially, if guardedly, invited to the surface, where we now await the arrival of their "Shaper."
    --
    Mission 2 (Councilor Juhani, Councilor Visas Marr, 1 Jedi Guardian, 3 Padawans, The Mid-Rim)
    -Councilor Juhani-

    We have arrived in system, where one Jedi and the colony ship will be scanning the local planet for the resource seams.

    -Knight Bona Fortuna-

    Hutt ships have arrived.

    Oh dear.
    --
    Mission 3 (Councilor Mira, 2 Jedi Sentinels, 3 Padawans, the Outer Rim)
    -Councilor Mira-

    More intelligent Rakghouls.

    Oddly enough, they are not attacking. We could probably win that fight, but I have told the others we will not be the ones to start it.

    I get this sinking feeling in my gut that something is about to happen.
    --
    Mission 4 (Councilor Atton Rand, 1 Jedi Sentinel, 2 Padawans, the Colonies)
    -Padawan Sorda-

    So far, nothing bad has happened, but nothing great either.

    We will maintain vigilance. No Sith appearing out of nowhere this time, I can tell you that-damn-much.
    --
    Mission 1 (Bao-Dur, 1 Jedi Sentinel, 3 Padawans, the Core)
    -Knight Kador Shirot-

    They are arrogant.

    Presumptuous.

    Condescending.

    Bantha herders.

    They are...pacifists to an aggravating degree, so at least we do not need to worry that they will launch some kind of mad crusade to burn the Republic to the ground; but they refuse to send more than perfunctory aid to our rebuilding efforts, citing Jedi presence as a...how did they put it?

    'Worrying sign of superstition, darkness, and mystical thinking.'

    Lackwits.

    Worse, we only located a very vague idea of their borders; extending into the Deep Core from the far side.
    -Failure, -5 PP-
    --
    Mission 2 (Councilor Juhani, Councilor Visas Marr, 1 Jedi Guardian, 3 Padawans, The Mid-Rim)
    -Knight Bona Fortuna-

    There is an old aphorism from...somewhere that comes to mind:

    it is better to jaw-jaw than to war-war.

    These mercenaries seem to have heard it as well, for they decided that running from the Jedi was better than learning how the business end of a Jedi's lightsaber feels.

    (+10 PP)
    --
    Mission 3 (Councilor Mira, 2 Jedi Sentinels, 3 Padawans, the Outer Rim)
    -Councilor Mira-

    They're sapient.

    More than that, universally, these...Nekghouls. They have an innate connection to the Force, as often as...what, the Miraluka maybe? Strong as a Wookiee, too. They don't want to fight; but they won't let themselves be slaughtered, either.

    They were learning at the feet of a holocron: Revan's.

    What, exactly, Karn Degarr was doing with such a device raises...questions.

    One of the Militia attempted to set off the reactor of a ruined power plant to wipe them out, but Gayel talked him down from it while I, in turn, attempted to convince them not to fall like lions on the new colonists.

    This has become a... tense situation. But it could have been far worse.

    (+20 PP, +10 Knowledge (-10 For Corellia))
    --
    Mission 4 (Councilor Atton Rand, 1 Jedi Sentinel, 2 Padawans, the Colonies)
    -Councilor Atton Rand-

    Nothing happened.

    On the other hand, all I found were the leads of a few cold trails.

    Frustrating and somewhat disorientating.
    +5 PP
    --
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Voikirium said:
    They are arrogant.

    Presumptuous.

    Condescending.
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    Voikirium said:
    extending into the Deep Core from the far side.
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    Well. Patrols near Empress Teta, Rendili, and Fondor should pick up if they're interfering in the rest of the galaxy (map with relatively current borders. Notably, Bespin, Utapau, Naboo, Cathar, Iridonia, Muunilinst, and Gand are all outside of common travel). Other than that? We have enough trouble without borrowing it from them.
     
    Barondoctor said:
    Well. Patrols near Empress Teta, Rendili, and Fondor should pick up if they're interfering in the rest of the galaxy (map with relatively current borders. Notably, Bespin, Utapau, Naboo, Cathar, Iridonia, Muunilinst, and Gand are all outside of common travel). Other than that? We have enough trouble without borrowing it from them.
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    A very, very rough map of what Near-Vong space looks like. In case it isn't clear, that's the choppy green paint.

    (And only that)
     
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