Technically true. I do like the idea that Tinkers can(but rarely do) make "state of the art" tech rather easily as a prerequisite to making "supertech". It kinda makes sense.
I really dislike that idea, and no it doesn't make any sense. "Tinker" in canon was (at least at first) just a threat rating, not a type of power. tHis means there'd be mjany different types of Tinker depending on how they achieve the ability to make devices that don't require power usage.
A guy who can make mono-molecular swords just by thinking about it? Tinker.
A lady who makes armor by controlling spiders? Tinker.
Someone who has super understanding of modern technology and can develop all sorts of more advanced technology? Tinker.
Someone with a super ability to miniturize technology? Tinker.
etc...

If you gotta make tools to make tools to make your tech,
Some Tinkers do, not all.
 
Think of it this way, a tinker can make the same thing A) Consumer-grade, B) Industrial-gerade, C) Mil-spec, or D) Space-rated. Which will they build?
More specifically true Tinkers* will try and overbuild whatever they're building for their given budget. so they might be given a Consumer budget and produce Industrial or Mil-Spec gear via Shard shenanigans of some sort**.

*Generally accepted to be referring to someone with Tinker as their highest rating and not just someone with a Tinker sub rating.

**The exact mechanisms may vary per Shard, some may tweak the device being made, some cheat like the scanner which bypasses inferior parts, and some may just be shells for the Power to fake through.
 
More specifically true Tinkers* will try and overbuild whatever they're building for their given budget. so they might be given a Consumer budget and produce Industrial or Mil-Spec gear via Shard shenanigans of some sort**.
Most of the time they will overbuild by adding more features. Sit down and think for a minute what industrial-grade or mil-spec actually means when compared to consumer grade.
 
Most of the time they will overbuild by adding more features. Sit down and think for a minute what industrial-grade or mil-spec actually means when compared to consumer grade.
Ah, we're using different definitions, I was thinking trying to cram as many features into one body like a Multitasking Factory Robot or the Bradley Fighting Vehicle filling more roles as opposed to higher quality control.

Tinker's don't get to choose what grade material they produce, they take materials and produce an end result, they don't know what goes on in between. Higher quality materials might produce a higher quality result, or their Shard might just end up cheating anyway. Case in point of this story: the scanner that Taylor partially dismantled seemed pretty high grade, but the materials used obviously weren't up to the task of what they were faking when her power told them to stop faking.
 
Again depends on the Tinker.
Only to a small degree. A given Tinker(those who are given blueprints by Shards that is, not gonna count those like Taylor who just make cool things but have to do it "the hard way". I will concede that even under that definition there is some variation in power mechanics, especially as some Tinkers explicitly have other powers) may be able to control for their base materials, and while it's not demonstrated in-universe(unless it is, but I don't know of any examples off the top of my head), it seems fairly obvious that a Tinker with access to better materials is going to be able to make the same target technology better, more rugged, more advanced, more versatile, etc(depends on the Tinker, target tech, and base materials and tools which they pick from among that list).

So better materials/tools is good, and tinker-made materials/tools can make even crazier Tinkertech. Not sure if that's what you were referring to, but wanted it out of the way. Now to the other interpretation of what you said, referring to knowing the in-between steps:

I think a lot of this has been conflated by fanfiction and fanon, so here's some WoG.
Wildbow said:
Think about it this way - you sit down to build something, you have a partial idea in mind, your power supplies the rest of the instructions and components. You get into the zone, you tinker away, and a lot of your actions become automatic.

The shard, meanwhile, is working in concert. They supply the ideas and the mental pictures, what's necessary and what's up to your imagination. Then, as you get underway, they assess variables like ambient temperature, radio waves, earth's superposition in the galaxy, the materials you're working with, fine tuning to an extreme.

People using a camera can't track all of the individual details, so they copy what they can, but the pieces don't fit together, the metal has superfine stresses and vulnerabilities they aren't aware of, the elements don't jibe, and it just doesn't work.
Usually I don't like WoG, but this seems mostly to clarify what's going on "on-screen" rather than add details that weren't in the original text, so I do actually find this kinda useful.

So the grade of the end-product is the design, to a degree, and the Tinker is actually a lot more aware than either of us has been giving credit. In addition, Tinker Fugues are actually comparatively rare compared to this pseudo-awareness. They ARE having this knowledge and expertise beamed into their brain in order to build the designs. The problem is that it's hard-to-impossible to communicate many of the later details to normal scientists and engineers, even if they can "talk shop" to a degree with other people, especially Tinkers and super-AI with tinkertech-deciphering Thinker powers.

I really dislike that idea, and no it doesn't make any sense. "Tinker" in canon was (at least at first) just a threat rating, not a type of power. tHis means there'd be mjany different types of Tinker depending on how they achieve the ability to make devices that don't require power usage.
Tinker being a threat rating has little to do with what they can or cannot make. They're getting knowledge beamed into their brains, and could easily include "normal" stuff as easily as crazy physics-defying rayguns and nanomachinery.

Think of it this way, a tinker can make the same thing A) Consumer-grade, B) Industrial-gerade, C) Mil-spec, or D) Space-rated. Which will they build?
Those are kind of meaningless terms here, more referring to overall quality, while "space-rated" is essentially meaningless outside of ridonkulous testing specifications. In their natural environment, the average Tinker is going to make something that is not going to be understood by modern science. This is the general rule by which they operate, but is it not a "law". It can be bent and broken.

Tinkers breaking this rule are usually deliberately making "substandard" equipment by their own standards, buy may still be "super" by normal standards. Instead of making Skynet, you just make Deepblue. And a given device they make may not NEED to be "Tinker-grade", they may really just need a stronger motor to make their target device and quickly whip together something "normal" to get on with the build rather naturally.

We do see this in canon, rather easily, as any given Tinkertech device isn't 100% supertech. They may use normal servos in a device where they are secondary, or make normal wiring and circuit-boards in a device that doesn't really need much in the way of electronics at all. Example we know of is Kid Win's camera-drone, ad Tecton(who also had other powers) was known to do maintenance on standard PRT vehicles, but hated doing so.

However, we do have this:
Defiant said:
"It's not customary for tinkers to design things for teammates. If they do, it's on a relatively small scale, simple. Kid Win making Gallant's armor, for example. Any device requires a great deal of upkeep. Time is spent tuning, calibrating, repairing and identifying problems. Each device created is something the tinker then has to take time to maintain, and mass production means the tinker becomes tech support more than an innovator. Dragon and I don't sleep, or sleep very little, but even for us, it isn't effective. Far better to invest our time into the artificial intelligences and the ships."
Tinkers can make less-than-super tech, but usually don't. They are driven to use their power, and the obvious use for their power is to go all-out. Taking half-steps would usually seem pretty counterproductive to a given Tinker, just as it would any other human, much less Shard-influenced(to greater or lesser degrees) parahumans.

Note: Thanks to Juff and Ridtom of CauldronDiscord for their assistance in fact checking and bring in sources.
 
those who are given blueprints by Shards that is, not gonna count those like Taylor who just make cool things but have to do it "the hard way".
That definition is not canon and does not exist 'in-universe'.
In Worm the only definition of Tinker that exists is the PRT Threat rating which does not care how the power operates, only the effective results.
Tinker being a threat rating has little to do with what they can or cannot make.
Yes, it does. It means that there is no distinction between a Thinker who figures out how to make a laser gun, someone who had the blueprints for the laser gun planted in their head, or one who can summon magic rods that emit laser beams on command which they hand to their minions. All three are Tinkers.

You are trying to force a definition that does not exist in Worm and which no one in-universe knows anything about, and then use that to explain things. The problem is it doesn't fit the setting.
 
Honestly not sure what you're actually trying to argue here. Yeah, there's a difference between the common-use definition of Tinker and the PRT definition. That's not a big deal. I made my definitions known, which is all that matters when it comes to getting across my point when multiple definitions exist. If you just want to be pedantic and try to tear apart my argument because I'm not using the exact same definitions as you...why bother? Just make arguments for your own points.
 
The issue I think is that Tinker is both a PRT Threat measurement and a specific type of power; confirmed by multiple WoG's where Wildbow goes into some of the details of how 'Tinker' powers work.

So not all PRT Tinkers are power Tinkers, but all power Tinkers are PRT Tinkers and power Tinkers do in fact work by the Shard beaming knowledge directly into their brainmeats: It is just that the Shard doesn't necessarily explain all the details, like that the reason this particular part needs to be placed in this exact location is because that compensates for a potential microfracture in the metal that only the Shard can detect, the Tinker just knows that it needs to go there because it will break if it goes anywhere else.

That's why Dragon's Thinker power lets her reverse engineer Tinkertech; her Shard helps her figure out all the extra details that the Tinker's Shard used without the Tinker's knowledge.

It's also why Tinkertech is so high-maintenance; the stuff is stupidly delicate and performing at theoretical optimums rather than any kind of practical optimum, which requires constant oversight and maintenance because everything is so very close to the point of failure.
 
Honestly not sure what you're actually trying to argue here. Yeah, there's a difference between the common-use definition of Tinker and the PRT definition.
The issue is that there isn't a "common use" definition in canon, and if there was it would not be anything like your definition. Your definition relies on WoG statements that no one in universe knows about.

No one in universe knows about "Tinker Shards" and virtually no one about Shards so any definition that relies on that knowledge is an out of universe one that would not be used by anyone in the setting.
 
Those are kind of meaningless terms here, more referring to overall quality, while "space-rated" is essentially meaningless outside of ridonkulous testing specifications. In their natural environment, the average Tinker is going to make something that is not going to be understood by modern science. This is the general rule by which they operate, but is it not a "law". It can be bent and broken.

No. They are NOT meaningless terms. They are terms used to illustrate the differences in philosophy and specifications a product can receive in its design and construction.

A) Consumer-grade -- they are feature-crammed, built for aesthetics using the cheapest methods and materials. Longevity and ease of maintenance are of little concern. Design choices often actively inhibit maintenance.
B) Industrial -- these products suffer little feature creep and the focus is on robustness, ease of maintenance and interoperability. Aesthetics are of lesser concern and the methods and materials used to produce them can prioritise function over price.
C) Mil-spec -- performance over features, robustness over aesthetics, specialist maintenance hogs if built for performance, idiot-proof to maintain if built for robustness.
D) Space-rated -- Built to survive a most hostile environment and to be maintenance-free over its expected lifespan (because nobody can get to the damn thing when something happens).

Applied to the design philosophy and methods behind Tinker-tech we see that most Tinker-tech falls squarely in the consumer-grade rank. It doesn't fucking matter whether modern science understands it or not. It exhibits all the features of consumer-grade designs with some performance-focussed mil-spec stuff thrown in.
 
No. They are NOT meaningless terms. They are terms used to illustrate the differences in philosophy and specifications a product can receive in its design and construction.

A) Consumer-grade -- they are feature-crammed, built for aesthetics using the cheapest methods and materials. Longevity and ease of maintenance are of little concern. Design choices often actively inhibit maintenance.
B) Industrial -- these products suffer little feature creep and the focus is on robustness, ease of maintenance and interoperability. Aesthetics are of lesser concern and the methods and materials used to produce them can prioritise function over price.
C) Mil-spec -- performance over features, robustness over aesthetics, specialist maintenance hogs if built for performance, idiot-proof to maintain if built for robustness.
D) Space-rated -- Built to survive a most hostile environment and to be maintenance-free over its expected lifespan (because nobody can get to the damn thing when something happens).

Applied to the design philosophy and methods behind Tinker-tech we see that most Tinker-tech falls squarely in the consumer-grade rank. It doesn't fucking matter whether modern science understands it or not. It exhibits all the features of consumer-grade designs with some performance-focussed mil-spec stuff thrown in.
I would argue that most Tinkertech falls squarely into "make it at home" DIY-grade. Basically glorified arts and crafts.
 
They are terms used to illustrate the differences in philosophy and specifications a product can receive in its design and construction.
Not really, or rather really not.

I've seen plenty of Mil-Spec components which suffer from severe feature bloat (The infamous Swiss army knife springs to mind), and there are some very tough and well built consumer grade items. As for space rated, I've yet to see a space rated component that will handle salt spray for any length of time, and most don't handle solvents very well either, while many consumer grade electronics are designed to handle that just fine.

For that matter the most poorly made hammer in the world will handle more abuse than the best made crystal oscillator.
 
Applied to the design philosophy and methods behind Tinker-tech we see that most Tinker-tech falls squarely in the consumer-grade rank. It doesn't fucking matter whether modern science understands it or not. It exhibits all the features of consumer-grade designs with some performance-focussed mil-spec stuff thrown in.

Actually, tinker tech shows more in common with test and prototype equipment than anything else. That is, rare, hand build, not really meant to last and often demanding in maintenance.

Not really, or rather really not.

I've seen plenty of Mil-Spec components which suffer from severe feature bloat (The infamous Swiss army knife springs to mind), and there are some very tough and well built consumer grade items. As for space rated, I've yet to see a space rated component that will handle salt spray for any length of time, and most don't handle solvents very well either, while many consumer grade electronics are designed to handle that just fine.

For that matter the most poorly made hammer in the world will handle more abuse than the best made crystal oscillator.

It's all about what you design the equipment for. Of course space rated components don't deal well with salt spray or solvents. They're not meant to get into environments where those are issues in the first place.
 
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It's all about what you design the equipment for. Of course space rated components don't deal well with salt spray or solvents. They're not meant to get into environments where those are issues in the first place.
Thus refuting the claim that "space rated" is any sort of generic term or construction philosophy, as opposed to a specific set of requirements, which was my point.
 
I've seen plenty of Mil-Spec components which suffer from severe feature bloat (The infamous Swiss army knife springs to mind),
They're not all the SwissChamp XAVT.

SAKWiki | SwissChamp XAVT

SAKWiki - The online Swiss Army Knife Encyclopedia. Information and Identification on Swiss Army Knives by Victorinox and Wenger.

Many models are good and efficient and have a reasonable set of useful tools! IIRC the military ones (SAKWiki | Soldier 2008 being the current version) are pretty restrained. Apparently the Germans specifically ordered a corkscrew, but the Swiss Army Swiss Army Knives didn't have them.
 
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They're not all the SwissChamp XAVT.
Pretty sure the one the actual swiss army knife is bloated enough, if I'm wrong okay, but the multi-tool I saw US troops using around 2002 (and which was AFAIK was issued to them) was pretty bloated, although I don't think it was made by Victorinox.
EDIT:Heck the Bradley is a great example of feature bloat in military projects.
 
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hummm anyway i been wondering what villian would be the first one Taylor will fight, i voting for Lung or Kaiser.

i thinking she would be found by hookwolf and after we should see a wolf running from a fox
 
What I'm wanting to see is the Trio's reaction to the announcement Taylor triggered and joined the Wards.
i am betting: sophia will say they all are all weaklings who let a bigger weakling join them, Madison with get a lot of remorse because she would know then she took things to far and Emma will have a psicological break-up making her being force-armed into a psycatrics and maybe after she would try to fix her old friendship (even if is a little broken now (on her fucked world))

OR my favorite: Emma think Taylor own her something and acts like they were before always saying "you're strong now! i knewed you could be strong!".

Sophia react was taken from Fanon with others fics of Ward!Taylor
Madisson react was taken from Canon when she finds about Skitter identity.
Emma first react was taken from Canon from the Leviathan attack
Emma second react was taken from Fanon from the fic: "The queen of the swarm"; take note, in that fic Emma was a mind broken Cape which Talent was detect the Trigger potencial from the shards; Taylor one's was the stronger she see and after being "mastered" by Sophia she believed only if someone Triggers they are strong and pass the year triying to make Taylor trigger in order to "Make her strong enough to survive"
 
Has Taylor told the PRT who locked her in the locker? And could she ask them to get Emma blacklisted from every fashion designer and modelling busness as some form of petty revenge?
 
Has Taylor told the PRT who locked her in the locker? And could she ask them to get Emma blacklisted from every fashion designer and modelling busness as some form of petty revenge?
uhhh this would be iligle....if somebody needs to be punished for a crime they commited it should be done properly through the court system or whatever.....if you must do a custom form of punishment it kind of needs to be a private thing because authority really need/should not do that kind of thing even if they could.

once shes been convicted she probably would have a hard time getting such gigs anyway.....while fasion models probably can get away wiht things at the higher end of such things they really can't when their just starting out.
 
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