The term "black hole" originated as a way of saying "region of space that things go into, but cannot come back out of."

Arguably, if we play fast and loose with translation conventions, just about any space-devouring weapon or process, or anything that creates a matter-annihilating zone, is generating a "black hole," even if it is not in fact generating a "singularity" and (as noted) is not limited by available matter to consume.
 
I checked a transcript for Peacekeeper Wars and it's said that the black hole will keep expanding even when the weapon generating it is destroyed, doubling at a geometric rate. That doesn't sound like a black hole to me.
"Maybe. It eats the whole galaxy. A monumental black hole. Giant, swirling headstone marking the spot where we all used to live and play…and slaughter the innocent."
- The Peacekeeper Wars

It's never outright stated but heavily implied by this statement that the weapon has a maximum expansion.

Said maximum expansion is just beyond horrific.

And yet, this was worse.

I need to modify the next update a little and our heating system is utterly fucked which is making focus hard. But I should be able to get it together this afternoon.

@ChrisPikula you have been awarded an omake coupon.
 
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"Maybe. It eats the whole galaxy. A monumental black hole. Giant, swirling headstone marking the spot where we all used to live and play…and slaughter the innocent."
- The Peacekeeper Wars
To be fair, whether it stops there or not is rather academic to all inhabitants of the galaxy in question.

Space is so mindbogglingly vast I can't wrap my mind around it. I know there are galaxy clusters and volumes where even stars are sparce in comparison. But practically anything further than Milky Way Galaxy (and maybe a few closest galaxies like Magellanic Clouds) may as well not exist to me for all the relevance they have to my existence, or that of humanity.

And I doubt the audience listening to this was any different in the show, it's not like they have any means of intergalactic travel.
 
I think the ultimate weapon would be something that induced a logical fault in the structure of the universe, some way to create a physical paradox such that no physically valid continuation state existed. That wouldn't create a zone of collapse, the universe would just stop as a whole.

A vacuum collapse you can still evacuate from, especially with FTL. It's horrific, and a severe curtailment of life in the cosmos, but you can, for a time, live with it. (Given FTL, just evacuate to a region of the universe outside the Hubble bubble of the collapse event. Though that's assuming the collapse only propagates at (sub-)lightspeed.)
 
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"What came next was predictable." Rinel swept one hand in a small gesture, and the pale colour of Gysian space flashed a threatening red at its edges. "Until it abruptly wasn't." Close to the heart of the galaxy, a single system flared into sharp, citrine light.

Well that stands true outside of the setting as well for me. I knew you were going to go for this, it's the oldest trope in science fiction straight from Frankenstein adapted to a Space Opera setting, and I expected you to be British/Five Eyes about it, but not to this degree.

As a reminder to everyone do not attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity or carelessness.
 
It's really heartbreaking to see the emotional toll struggling to interact with the Shiplords has taken on Amanda, and likely will continue to take for the foreseeable future. She's put a good face on it, and she's only gained more reason to hope for this mission since it began, but it's exhausting and dangerous.

And... ugh, the 'fix it' simulations or lack thereof really make me wonder. Why did they have one for the Hjivin but not the others we've seen? Is there some horrifying cost for running one, or is it cultural baggage? Did there use to be simulations at all these stations, but the Shiplords think they solved them, and that's part of how we ended up this far down the rabbit hole?
 
Terrible Knowings
"This was only the beginning of its cost."

The words turned in the air around you, but they seemed very far away when set against the horror that you'd just witnessed. You could feel the shape of your Masque through the neural link that had translated your reaction in reality. It was hard to feel anything else.

"I can see that one of you understands," Rinel noted, the image of the system frozen behind him as a terrible wave of impossible forces ripped across it. His veil shifted, expressing more compassion than you thought possible. "I am sorry for your brilliance."

It was difficult to reject that, and you didn't want to.

:Mary?: Amanda's voice came through the group link, and you could feel her concern. :What is it? What did you see?: More expressions of care flooded across the link to support you, though few held words. For a moment it was almost too much.

:I saw,: the words cut off. The yawning emptiness flashed through your mind again, breaking the sentence and making you shiver. How many million cycles ago had this single mistake almost cost…everything. How did you even begin to explain that?

"I saw," you said through the translator. "And yet I cannot understand."

Could it be that simple, you wondered. Could it be a lie? That would make it easier, wouldn't it. If it was propaganda, if a fraction of what you knew wasn't capable of ending more lives than you could ever count.

"They made a mistake," Rinel replied, his own veil shifting through into a deep regret. "They knew the theories that you clearly do, young pilgrim. But they thought that there was a way to create a collapse event that would self-stabilise after it reached a certain distance."

"How could they have been that stupid?" you demanded. The sheer anger in your voice surprised you at the time. But fear and anger have always been fast bedfellows. "That's like…it's like setting the atmosphere on fire and believing that it'll stop politely once it gets 'just so far'. You said the Gysian were careful. How did they make a mistake like this?"

"They stopped being careful." Rinel said. You weren't Mandy, or Vega. You didn't have nigh-supernatural empathy. But you recognised, with a little help, the agony in the Warden's manner as he added: "Because we made them feel like they didn't have any other choice."

"What do you mean?" Amanda asked. Her Masque still showed more confusion than understanding, but there was chatter across the group link, Iris taking the lead as she helped the Unison Intelligences coach their humans towards what the Shiplords had stopped here.

"What we were then is not what our people are today," Rinel said. "But the Gysian knew at least some of our strength, and recognised that there was no conventional method to defeat it. We think they cut corners, but it's hard to say. It's impossible to safely test a collapse initiator."

"In the end, we only know that they deployed one here. When our replies were insufficient to their demands, they used it. And the Light in Shadows gave their lives to secure existence from the cost of the Gysian's mistake."

"But that still," you struggled with the words.

:He's telling the truth, Mary,: Vega sent. :At least as he knows it. And if the Third is anything to go by, I'm not sure the Hearthguard know how to lie about what happened in these places.:

:It's still possible,:
you replied fiercely. But there was a false echo in the words, and you paused a moment, trying to understand why. You weren't a social genius; your brilliance lay in understanding the world around you. So why were you so sure that this had been real? It had been like a whisper in your ear as you saw the readings change, a tearing of space and time coming together until it was replaced by something endlessly more terrifying than nothingness. You recognised the feeling of that certainty from…somewhere. When had it been?

"I'm not sure what more I can tell you," Rinel said. Their veil had shifted to a conciliatory framing. "What we were then didn't place monitors into the systems of other races. We tried to be good teachers. But that means that we lack a full understanding of the reasoning behind their insanity."

"Insanity is the only word for it," you shook your head, looking over at the others. They were almost there, but it was taking time that shouldn't be wasted. You grimaced beneath your Masque, then pushed on.

"Rinel is talking about a vacuum collapse," you said, the words carrying micro-gestalts to the group link. They weren't much, but it should give everyone but Iris the context they needed. "An event that ends reality as we understand it. And once one begins, truly begins," you clarified, "can't be stopped. Not without burning entire galaxies to dust."

"Yes," Rinel nodded.

"And these," you swallowed down screaming terror, hard. "These people tried to weaponize it."

"Succeeded, in fact," your host pointed out.

"That," you agreed. You tasted bile. "How is this system still intact?"

"That," Rinel said, "was thanks to the Uninvolved of the time. When the Gysian's weapon shattered reality, they reacted. We're not sure if they could have stopped its effects. It's possible, given what we now know. But your point about the energy cost is well made."

"We thought that the Uninvolved remained so until the War of the Sphere," Amanda said, and you could see the expression of confusion below her Masque in almost perfect clarity.

"They never communicated with us before then, no," Rinel shook his head. "But we knew they were there; we'd helped many of them down the path to becoming one. And stood vigil over all the others as they left the world behind. I know it must be difficult, given what you are taught today. But they weren't always seen as threats."

The Warden turned one hand up, and the image behind him started to move again. Waves of stress poured out from the newborn singularity, tearing across the system. Continents cracked and the star writhed beneath those attentions, warped by the sudden inclusion of a vast, new mass into the local stellar area.

"They held back the star's disruption, and gave us the chance to repair this shattered system once our own reinforcements arrived. We did our best, but left the scars as a reminder. For several hundred cycles they were the only memorial, until this station was constructed by the newly founded Hearthguard."

That was interesting, but not your field of expertise. You were focused, fixated even on the sweeping motions of invisible presences holding back the tortured scream of a sun that by all rights should have died. And not just holding back, but calming until it could continue to burn today. That was power, but also finesse on a scale that was far more intimidating.

I wonder…you thought, watching. Could Amanda match that? The energy requirements were considerable, but Purify had put that within her reach. The finesse though? You had no idea. Or maybe you did, but it wasn't important right now. You filed it away for later investigation.

"This doesn't quite explain why this place was built, though," Mir said slowly. "Do not take me wrongly, what happened here was a tragedy. But why was, is, it so important?"

"Because it forced us to make a choice." The reply was very gentle. "A choice that would be made again, and then again, and then a million times more across as many cycles. It forced us to choose, young one. Between one part of reality. And all of it."

From here the boarding team will split. Some will remain, some will go to help Vega, and others will seek specific knowledge. This vote will decide which one you follow, and you will only fully experience the one choice.
[] Mary and Iris intend to remain, they have many questions for Rinel about what happened here. Mir is also drawn to stay, as there appear to be deeper implications about why that he would wish to know.
[] Vega seeks to find a place within the great gallery at the centre of the station where she might tap into the well of remembrance. Amanda will go with her, to support the Harmonial, and seek answers to Mir's question more directly.
[] Write-in's are welcome. Ping me with them. PoV will depend on which option is picked.
 
This took a bit longer than planned for what was only a few minor changes, but I was also kinda out of it thanks to a mock exam this morning. Thanks go again to my betas for checking this over. We're very interested to see where the votes take this, and will happily field questions on any details of the event that occurred here at a technical level if you have them. The societal and cultural ones aren't quite in the open yet, but we think you might start seeing the writing on the wall. I hope this, albeit smaller, update provides the explanations people were looking for. I just couldn't make the two sections cooperate when I tried to put them together.
 
I want to follow both of these options so badly. I must give it some more thought before voting.
Technical hat on: It should be noted that we're going to get the whole story no matter what we vote. There's too much story to be told to permanently withhold any of it from us, and we'll still hear about the other side, just not from a first-person perspective.

[x] Vega seeks to find a place within the great gallery at the centre of the station where she might tap into the well of remembrance. Amanda will go with her, to support the Harmonial, and seek answers to Mir's question more directly.
 
So we have witnessed a 'incite vacuum collapse' and a 'create voracious Uninvolved eating galaxy' event, and the SL learned the lesson of 'if we shackle the developing races, something like this won't happen again'. And the SL rejected (for now) the 'if no-one lives, such a thing cannot happen'.
//
I wonder what happens in other galaxies of this universe ... because if shit like this is possible, if you have billions of galaxies and billions of years, it becomes more and more probable that such a thing is NOT stopped.
 
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Yeah, I gotta go with the same one as Coda.

[x] Vega seeks to find a place within the great gallery at the centre of the station where she might tap into the well of remembrance. Amanda will go with her, to support the Harmonial, and seek answers to Mir's question more directly.

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I wonder what happens in other galaxies of this universe ...
I'm guessing that's where Uninvolved step in. Heavily.
 
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I find it pretty telling that a big part of the first sorrow was the Shiplords scaring another civilization into doing something stupid and their response ever since then has been to just double down on that mistake.

[x] Vega seeks to find a place within the great gallery at the centre of the station where she might tap into the well of remembrance. Amanda will go with her, to support the Harmonial, and seek answers to Mir's question more directly.
 
Given that warning about not lingering too long in the dark between the stars, maybe there are more fundamental problems to intergalactic transit than mere logistics. There are interesting cultural implications for the Shiplords depending on whether they can't or won't, presuming even beyond that they haven't (which, the framing of the Uninvolved and Shiplord discussions suggests is likely they aren't an actively intergalactic society, but that doesn't mean they've never taken a stab at it). But much like the question of where the Secrets come from, there's a lot there we don't know.
 
...Game theory.
Think about it. This time it was just keeping a shiny out of their reach, but what if the Shiplords turned more cruel, more hostile?
It's a rebuff of a peace built from the fear of weapons of mass distruction, because of course, all it takes is one fool who doesn't fear the devastation enough- no. One man who decides the price of using such a weapon is worth less then the cost and then...
Game over. Game over and Server shut down, code deleted, and nothing left but memories on minds that will never again remember them.

The thought that it's better to die then give them satisfaction.
That's the thought the Shiplords have been struggling with how to deal with, ever since.
 
Thanks for the update. Tough choice, but

[X] Vega seeks to find a place within the great gallery at the centre of the station where she might tap into the well of remembrance. Amanda will go with her, to support the Harmonial, and seek answers to Mir's question more directly.
 
"How could they have been that stupid?" you demanded. The sheer anger in your voice surprised you at the time. But fear and anger have always been fast bedfellows. "That's like…it's like setting the atmosphere on fire and believing that it'll stop politely once it gets 'just so far'. You said the Gysian were careful. How did they make a mistake like this?"

Oh hi the Tsar Bomba. How is the anticipated fear reflex you give people doing today?

"Rinel is talking about a vacuum collapse," you said, the words carrying micro-gestalts to the group link. They weren't much, but it should give everyone but Iris the context they needed. "An event that ends reality as we understand it. And once one begins, truly begins," you clarified, "can't be stopped. Not without burning entire galaxies to dust."

Oh. That well? Good to know.

So we have witnessed a 'incite vacuum collapse' and a 'create voracious Uninvolved eating galaxy' event, and the SL learned the lesson of 'if we shackle the developing races, something like this won't happen again'. And the SL rejected (for now) the 'if no-one lives, such a thing cannot happen'.
//
I wonder what happens in other galaxies of this universe ... because if shit like this is possible, if you have billions of galaxies and billions of years, it becomes more and more probable that such a thing is NOT stopped.

Don't forget the Nanite Grave World. Except that it doesn't. What we are dealing with here is a failure to comprehend Sophonce in both from a Watsonian and a Doyleist perspective.

...Game theory.
Think about it. This time it was just keeping a shiny out of their reach, but what if the Shiplords turned more cruel, more hostile?
It's a rebuff of a peace built from the fear of weapons of mass distruction, because of course, all it takes is one fool who doesn't fear the devastation enough- no. One man who decides the price of using such a weapon is worth less then the cost and then...
Game over. Game over and Server shut down, code deleted, and nothing left but memories on minds that will never again remember them.

The thought that it's better to die then give them satisfaction.
That's the thought the Shiplords have been struggling with how to deal with, ever since.

But that thought isn't even true for our species. As in if anyone is cruel/narcissistic enough to do that they are too cruel/narcissistic to actually have access to the big red button to press it without any security actions on our parts.

Look from a Watsonian perspective it's about failing as teachers/uplifters of civilizations because the Shiplords were already too abusive to races before the sorrows and now we have proof from the horse's mouth:

"What came next was predictable." Rinel swept one hand in a small gesture, and the pale colour of Gysian space flashed a threatening red at its edges. "Until it abruptly wasn't." Close to the heart of the galaxy, a single system flared into sharp, citrine light.

"The Gysian had dug into the Secrets searching for a way to force our hand, or to unravel the mystery they pursued. They found both. At the time, we saw only the massing of fleets, the armament of millions, the actions of war that we knew and could prepare for." Rinel shook his head, the movement endlessly weary. "By the time we realised what they'd done beneath that screen of expected action, they already had a functional prototype in range of our core worlds."

The viewpane behind the Warden of the First shimmered, and a new image took shape in the space beyond. A station hung where the terrifying absence now existed, surrounded by a modest armada of glittering ships. They were arranged in a defensive formation, and Shiplord codes noted their active armament signatures.

Facing them were fourteen ships of Shiplord construction, in their lines the ancestry of modern War Fleet craft. A sigil stood out proudly on their prows, one you didn't recognise. Behind them was another, larger vessel, its sweeping curves gentler. A diplomatic vessel of some kind?

Yet there was something behind the image, a subtle shift in the feel of the sensor feeds that didn't seem to add up. Something at the heart of that station was warping local spacetime, in a way you'd never seen before. But Mary recognised something in it.

:Oh no,: she whispered, aghast. :No, no, no.:

"This was the stage where our tragedy unfolded." More images, more recordings, pleas and refusal and determination and a desperate desire to avert more than just a simple mistake. "Maybe if we had just told them what the merging of the First and Fifth could do, they would have stopped. Maybe not. It is impossible for us to say. All we know is that their leaders rejected our demands—for by the end, that was what they had become. And they tried to activate a weapon that they believed could be limited in scope."

These are not the actions of free people, but a servus slave rebellion against their oppressors. In other words this was a violent rebellion of academics against what they saw as their minds' oppressors. Think Glenn Greenwald, but as an entire race of people and having access to Kardashev Type 2 technology.

Basically when one strips away the metaphor of science fiction this story is about industrialized education and how it limits the development of the minds being educated to what the makers of the system think is being worthwhile. Like say how our current society has a problem with technical studies being underrepresented because everyone thinks a university diploma is necessary for a good job.

Like right now, if they haven't died or retired, the production of experimental chemical vessels depends on a literal handful of people in the US because their job isn't well regarded enough for it to exist for more than a handful of people.
 
Look from a Watsonian perspective it's about failing as teachers/uplifters of civilizations because the Shiplords were already too abusive to races before the sorrows and now we have proof from the horse's mouth:
I'd argue that that's kinda a reach here. The Shiplords, like any teacher, were trying to keep children away from knowledge that they didn't feel they were ready to deal with - and indeed were not at some level as this update shows. I've said before that what the Secrets are capable of is a lot more than you've seen on screen. You've seen different aspects of that in each of the Sorrows so far, and this one is no different. Except that once a collapse gets beyond, y'know, a few stellar volumes? You need to pump enough energy to incinerate a galaxy into the space to stabilise it. And you have no idea if the Uninvolved are even capable of that. There are limits.
 
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*crosses arms*
Hunh.
Industrialized education only keeps what it values and discards the rest?...*frowns*
Counterpoint- that notion isn't really born of the industrial revolution, I think. Or rather...
I'm not seeing a difference in how we're educated today, versus the means of the past, in an idealogical sense? Like...
A Roman Legionnaire might learn to napkin math logistics, or a Chinese noble from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms Era might learn how to eyeball how many troops a province of a certain level of population can raise without starving but I bet they wouldn't be nearly as connected to the knowledge the other holds, or value it as much- the Roman because his decision-making of how to run an army is less likely to think of how to handle peacetime, and the Chinese man because the country is, apparently super fertile and thus easy to feed it's population.
In short, it's not about modern advancement, it's about idealogical blindspots, and those will happen, as far as I can tell, under just about ANY system of education.

Now, I CAN see the Shiplords being terrible teachers in the vein of 'the pain helps them learn.' when really the pain is simply helping them to parrot the answers you've trained them to give. The Shiplords, are thus implied to lack proper Empathy for the whole 'Teachers of the Galaxy' role they've taken because they're doubling down on the severity of the pain in their lessons, but they don't REALIZE that. Possibly because they figure if they could tank the pain, so could their students...
But their age blinds them. And with things like the Sorrows being cases where the Shiplords take the pain of the decisions of others upon themselves, they fail themselves by injecting so much pain into their own culture they're basically a wounded animal lashing out against anyone else whenever something triggers them. I'm guessing the Shiplords nearly killed themselves with something like a Cuban missle crisis, but were so terrified of what happened that once the Gysian here pressed their trauma button, with actually FIRING the nuke, the Shiplords were too terrified to think straight afterwards, and their fear took hold. And every Sorrow since, the Shiplords have basically doubled down on letting their fear run away with them, until the present day of humanity.
'We must teach them so they don't make the same mistake we nearly did.'
'we must show them the fruits of their errors before it's too late.'
'we cannot allow them the chance to make the great mistake.'
'it is imperative that we are the uncontested super-power, so that no one may ever unleash the greatest of horrors upon the Galaxy.'
...I don't think I got the escalation quite right in my example, but that's basically it in a nutshell.
 
Yeah, I gotta go with the same one as Coda.

[x] Vega seeks to find a place within the great gallery at the centre of the station where she might tap into the well of remembrance. Amanda will go with her, to support the Harmonial, and seek answers to Mir's question more directly.

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I'm guessing that's where Uninvolved step in. Heavily.
In the Milky Way we have the Uninvolved, in Andromeda we have the Somewhatinvolved, further afield we have the Ofteninvolved…
 
In the Milky Way we have the Uninvolved, in Andromeda we have the Somewhatinvolved, further afield we have the Ofteninvolved…
In other words, they're uninvolved because the Shiplords insist, very persuasively, that they should be uninvolved.

There always was an element of "Don't meddle with mortal affairs" in there, but before the Shiplords did what they did, I expect that was more along the lines of "Don't needlessly meddle in the affairs of other nations; it doesn't typically work." Besides, the Shiplords made better teachers anyway, just for being less arcane. This is me speculating, by the way; but we've already seen some of how it changed over time.

And @Dmol8

I can tell you, with close to 100% certainty, that this story isn't a metaphor for anything. It just isn't. It's not about any form of education. It's about the Shiplords, and Humanity, and Practice... and what was built on those.
 
These are not the actions of free people, but a servus slave rebellion against their oppressors. In other words this was a violent rebellion of academics against what they saw as their minds' oppressors. Think Glenn Greenwald, but as an entire race of people and having access to Kardashev Type 2 technology.
No, they were both paranoid and narcissistic enough that they were willing to burn the universe if the Shiplords did not give them what they thought was their due. Anyone willing to use an omnicidal weapon like that is not someone you can trust to see that limits exist. Because the only way to test such a weapon is to risk destroying everything.
 
The only semi-reasonable explanation I can think of is "they were utterly unaware of the mechanism, just that they could build a fancy weapon to this design", because if there was any awareness that they'd created a false vacuum bomb, even if they thought they could control it, actually lighting it off would be recklessly irresponsible for anything short of imminent apocalypse. If you have a controlled false vacuum bomb, it seems reasonable that one failure mode would be uncontrolled false vacuum bomb, so assuming you don't just shelve the idea for being too dangerous, it should be reserved as a final deterrence weapon.

I'll try to be generous to the Gysians, so I'll be assuming they had good reason to believe they could contain a localized false vacuum collapse, but somehow blanked on "but what if containment fails?"

I don't get the impression that the Gysians were under immediate threat of being exterminated outright, so the most bellicose response which still approximated reason would be "back off or we use it".

I can sort of understand being afraid of the Shiplords and looking into this thing the Shiplords were being reticent about, but at this point, I'm kind of blaming Gysian leadership for being unreasonable. I don't think the Shiplords of this very early era were tyrannical or otherwise justifying paranoia to the point of opening a shooting war with an untested superweapon.

The modern Shiplords, sure; the threat that modern Shiplords pose to any given Tributary race is much closer to the immediately existential. I'd still argue against the use of a controlled false vacuum bomb, even if the engineers pinky-swear they can totally control it, but I can see where a race with a less inclusive monkeysphere (i.e. much less willing to consider aliens as people) might use it when the Tribute fleets roll around. Were I part of that decision, I would argue that the risk of an uncontrolled false vacuum collapse endangers not just our own species, but the entire universe in perpetuity*, and that bad as the Shiplords are, they're still not as bad as a false vacuum collapse.

*Or, to be specific, all species which rely on the Higgs field staying as-is, which live close enough to the Milky Way galaxy that the light-bubble from a false vacuum collapse will reach them. Most galaxies in the observable universe would be spared, as space is expanding faster than light, so they will never know anything about our actions here and now; only ancient light from a much younger Milky Way will ever reach them.
 
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