The Perfectly Normal High School: A Slice of Life Quest! (Defunct)
- Thread starter LuciDreamer
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LuciDreamer
Maliciously Incompetent
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If that happens, you'd actually probably be right. Phones would become super cheap.
Granted, that would probably be because, if Ambernia's economy crashes in spite of its smorgasbord of economic safety checks, social welfare programs, and worker's unions, that would probably mean the rest of the world is already undergoing Great Depression. So the prices of everything would be down, with the stipulation that that would only be because nobody has any income anymore.
Also its debatable as to whether or not the phone lines would be working in that scenario. Telecoms companies being telecoms companies and all that (Might make an Infodump about that later).
That besides, Silas is going to a festival this turn. A nationally-sponsored festival. A festival filled with booths selling sugar treats, idol memorabilia, physical CDs, themed manga, not to mention the people on the streets that will be selling things not directly related to RikuRiku to take advantage of the crowds... sufficed to say, Silas's checking account is going to feel a lot lighter at the end of this turn. I call it the "Nebulous Spending" Fee.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
Just so long as we talk with Hana and Yumika. Our foremost concern right now should be making sure our friends are safe from the Foundation, including Rakuyama or not for right now. Making sure Hana isn't abducted in her sleep by shady men in ski masks is more important than Riku Riku. If Silas thinks he might get distracted, then he should get the conspiring out of the way early, because it's very very important.
- Location
- Phoenix, Arizona
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The magic of big sister hacking shipping drones.Geh!
One does wonder how he made his collection of anime goods at home without any income source.
Considering the above, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you've simply never read a good harem story then. Granted, arguably neither have I, despite a lot of time spent looking.
But if the characterization is done properly? If the girls have actual reasons for liking the male lead (such as Silas' fear and determination in spite of that fear for Shinohara), if it's shown how they actually are introduced to and grow to accept the concept of polyamory, and if they have meaningful interpersonal dynamics between each other up to and including how they deal with the inevitable jealousy? In short, if it's played for genuine emotion and realistic drama instead of for cheap humor?
Seeing awkward loner Silas realize his dream of not being alone anymore in such a way despite all his insecurities (and I agree that we still have a lot of character growth to do before that becomes realistic) would be quite satisfying, I think.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
I don't know about them growing to accept polyamory, because that's kind of out of most peoples normal purview, but I'd agree that playing the harem for drama (not soap opera drama either, but actual serious drama) rather than comedy would be a pretty interesting "bad end" for the Quest. If I were looking for a scenario to explain "Losing is Fun" to someone, that kind of "everything explodes spectacularly" would be one of my first go to's. Everyone enjoys a trainwreck, and a game is one of few places where you can be in one without much danger. 
Well, granted, but ultimately I think I still prefer "Earn Your Happy Ending", so, uh, I'd rather not have that as bad end. Bad middle, maybe.
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Agreed, big time.
1. I used to frequent the Bay12 forums. On too many occasions, I saw suggestion games which were practically ruined by people doing something moronic just for the lulz. (Since the Bay12 forums are the primary community for Dwarf Fortress players, this happened with some regularity.) In longer-running SGs, if one pays attention, they'll note that interesting things happen when the PC isn't an idiot, and that the interesting things that happen when they are tend to cut off many of those interesting things.Eh, I am not a believer in fictional characters' rights.
On too many occasions I've done something ill-advised because it was an interesting route to take. Like revealing the Foundation to Yumika, because I was curious where she is going to take it. Or disregarding the global economy, which sadly didn't pass through.
Silas wants nothing more than to have a perfectly normal, boring life, but I see absolutely no reason to respect that wish as a quester.
2. Silas will not have a normal, boring life. One of his closest friends eats emotions. Another doesn't really exist. He knows the existence of a group which threatens his hopes of having an ordinary life. His "big sister" is an AI who is programming a "little brother," which is now lost somewhere. (Who knows who picked it up, or what they're doing with him?) The Quest has been designed such that Silas cannot have an ordinary life.
3. I personally have no problem picking sub-optimal and "interesting" options, under one critical condition: If it makes sense for the character. Take my recent vote to have Silas play a video game. Was it optimal? Frig, no! But it makes sense that he would want to do something comforting after a rough day with lots of socializing, high-tension social stuff, and almost no Big Sister. Oh, and speaking of which...
4. You may not care about the rights of characters in this quest's world, but Silas does. So does everyone around them. If we make Silas not respect the rights of other people, something will probably happen to Silas. Even if that doesn't cause any psychological issues, we do not want Hanamura having to decide between "removing" an acquaintance and preserving his own normal.
Let's consider this for a moment. Why would players optimize the fun out of a game? Is it because, perchance, they want to win?
But perhaps more importantly, we need to ask what the winstate of this game would be. I'm willing to bet that people who are against voting well for its own sake will define the winstate much more strictly than the people who are for it.
So can non-optimal decisions.
Let's take a semi-hypothetical example. On the aforementioned Bay12 forums, there was a suggestion game called The Warrens of Oric the Awesome. Early on, we found a strange item called the "Astral Influx". There were some suggestions of what to do with it, including "smash it," which initially won. Luckily, the GM was kind enough to tell us that destroying it would have serious consequences and allow a revote. It turns out that this was the player character's "soul star," which controlled character-switching, granted the PC various nifty abilities, and also stopped him from turning into a horrible, uncontrolled monster.
Is this an extreme example? Well, yeah. But where there are extreme examples, there are examples which are less extreme which yield a less-extreme form of the same outcome. And it brings me to another, crucial point...who decides what is "interesting"? Some people might find the idea of smashing a known plot-critical artifact interesting, others find the idea of using it interesting.
No.
You might enjoy trainwrecks in general, and most people have some trainwrecks they enjoy. But there are people who don't like trainwrecks (unless they really hate the train), and nobody would be fine seeing every train wrecked. Everyone has some trains that they want to see get from point A to point B without wrecking, even if the journey isn't effortless. Maybe someone they know or admire is on it, maybe it's historic, maybe it's just an unusually awesome train design.
To some people, this game falls into that category. They continue to engage with the game not because they want to see it wrecked, or even because they want to see if it gets wrecked, but because they think the train is cool or they like the characters on it. And, bluntly, it seems insulting to want to see a train LuciDreamer clearly poured so much time and effort in wreck just because you want to see if it explodes.
...They needed LuciD to do that?Well, that and LuciD has confirmed that harems would be a pretty poor decision.
quickly searches TV Tropes for CLANNAD
tries to spot what makes it unique among romance stories
Um...yeah, that makes total sense...?
She's never claimed to be integral to the functioning of the world. She just claimed to help moderate the business cycle (albeit not in such fancy terms). In other words, if she looked away too long, she might let some kind of commodity bubble burst, plunging the world into a deep recession.
It's also possible that she works more subtly as well, working to undermine the public's trust in figures or brands who she deems to be untrustworthy while boosting the social media presence of ones she deems trustworthy. Seems like something she might do. But we don't know, and we likely won't if Silas doesn't start to get suspicious of Big Sister and ask what all she has digital fingers in. (With relatively specific questions; she probably has to tell the truth and nothing but the truth to Silas, but that doesn't mean she has to tell the whole truth.)
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Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
In rebuttal to that whole spaghettipost, GWG, I will say one thing.
Nobody voted to have Silas start a harem.
Nobody voted to have Silas start a harem.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
Edit: duh... Didn't look at the name.
My apologies, GreatWyrmGold.Good question. How do I define winning in a social quest that has a character just living his life?
The answer is, 'very loosely'. But for the purposes of the argument... let's look at the quest subtitle:
The moment we have quantified our social standing was the moment we obtained criteria by which to measume our progress. So when I say 'winning' (well, it's mostly Karnewarrior who put it that way, but we seem to be of one opinion on this matter), I am talking about having success... better relationships, more friends, more money, and more of the numbers going up, up, up.
Which I feel isn't everything there is to the game. I would love to have a rival, or people Silas doesn't really get along with. I would love to have constant and known obstacles, something we would have to work around and watch out for. I would love having a crisis, and watch Silas try to overcome it. The movie night was one of the better chapters in the entire quest, and it even got us a way to connect Nanami's storyline to ours ahead of schedule! Even though it set us back a full week when it comes to socializing. Not that the players knew what the consequences would be at the time they made the decision... but if they did, would they do it anyway?
So what I am talking about when I criticize 'optimal plays' is the players' ability - or inability, - to willingly accept setbacks and complications, or risks of thereof, to explore certain storylines which would otherwise be closed off to us.
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LuciDreamer
Maliciously Incompetent
- Location
- United States
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- He/Him
Please don't fight :<
@GreatWyrmGold, I really appreciate how much you care about the story and world I've written, but you need to trust that I would never let the narrative slip to the point where it becomes unfun, or where certain plot points become irreversibly unresolved, or where things degrade to the level of some C-List Light Novel adaptation on Crunchyroll. At least, I'd never let that happen purposefully. I'll be willing to let the playerbase slip and stumble, but I would never let you all actually cross the Event Horizon and plunge. I care about this story as much as everyone else does, after all!
We're all here to have fun; and that includes me. You'll just have to trust me, I guess. :S
Also uh, @Karnewarrior, you do remember what happened at the end of Clannad, right?!?!?
@GreatWyrmGold, I really appreciate how much you care about the story and world I've written, but you need to trust that I would never let the narrative slip to the point where it becomes unfun, or where certain plot points become irreversibly unresolved, or where things degrade to the level of some C-List Light Novel adaptation on Crunchyroll. At least, I'd never let that happen purposefully. I'll be willing to let the playerbase slip and stumble, but I would never let you all actually cross the Event Horizon and plunge. I care about this story as much as everyone else does, after all!
We're all here to have fun; and that includes me. You'll just have to trust me, I guess. :S
Also uh, @Karnewarrior, you do remember what happened at the end of Clannad, right?!?!?
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
Everyone lived happily, Ushio loved the wintertime, and Nagisa came back from her bus trip to Idaho.
Right?
Edit: Right?!
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- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Which is (part of) my arguments why players should never have to vote for things just because it would make things interesting. Which is what my ultimate point was. Which makes me confused as to why you're aiming that at me.
LuciDreamer
Maliciously Incompetent
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What I mean is that you seem to be worrying too much about the consequence of the playerbase's choices. I am of the mind that, if the playerbase wants to pursue an interesting but potentially dangerous/trashy/awful objective, I should let them, even if those objectives create problems for me or my narrative or for Silas. If that creates a conflict - great! It would be interesting and serendipitous and I would have a lot of fun writing it.
That besides, I am not a particularly ruthless QM, even if I like to engage in some schadenfreude from time to time. And this Quest, while willing to go to dark places, isn't meant to be the kind of Quest where an absolute failure state is possible.
So if Silas screws up his relationships with everyone and is alienated from all of his friends, I have a backup plan. If Silas accidentally convolutes one of my dangling plot threads, I'll make a backup plan.
Even if Silas dies, I have backup plans. Though it won't be pretty and will definitely cause a lot of aching (And I'm going to hate myself for what I'll have to do to one of my favorite Original Characters since I started writing Original Characters), it won't be the end of this Quest, and I won't allow such an eventuality, or anything similar, to make the Quest any less fun.
Anyway, sorry if my previous post, or this one, seems standoffish. I didn't mean to offend, if I did. :<
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
- Location
- Behind you~
That's...not at all what the argument has been about, though.
The problem as described is voters who believe they need to/want to deliberately vote for things that may or may not destabilize the situation or are otherwise suboptimal to a 'good' Silas run (for debatable measures of optimal, sure) on purpose because they believe it's more interesting than whatever would happen otherwise.
What you're saying is "of course, those alternate paths are interesting!" and completely ignoring the original point/coming down on their side and giving them even more incentive to do so.
The problem as described is voters who believe they need to/want to deliberately vote for things that may or may not destabilize the situation or are otherwise suboptimal to a 'good' Silas run (for debatable measures of optimal, sure) on purpose because they believe it's more interesting than whatever would happen otherwise.
What you're saying is "of course, those alternate paths are interesting!" and completely ignoring the original point/coming down on their side and giving them even more incentive to do so.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
I think people should vote for the options they want to vote for, rather than some extraneously derived "optimal" vote.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think that people are allowed to make decisions about what they want based on all available information, including judgments - however derived - regarding courses of action which are in some sense "optimal." Like...nobody is forcing anyone to vote a certain way.
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- Earth
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- He/Him
I'm worrying not about the consequences, nor about optimality. Remember how my vote for an after-school activity was "play video games," which had pretty much the least optimal consequences of any available option (short of a write-in like "openly declare war on the student council")?
I'm worrying about the logic behind votes for "non-optimal" votes. I can't abide when people use terrible logic to justify their actions or beliefs, even if I have no problem with (or even enthusiastically endorse) those actions/beliefs. When people come to conclusions through logically invalid means, whether or not I agree with them, I want to explain where they're wrong in hopes of that person or others recognizing the flaw in their logic and correcting it.
Let's take a modified version of the example I gave earlier. Silas finds himself in a dungeon, with a strange magical artifact. Three people cast votes in favor of smashing it. One says it seems dangerous and will probably have terrible consequences if used, one says Silas has seen too many anime to trust any power given to him that easily (while admitting OOC that it's probably a bad move), and one says that it could be interesting. I only have a problem with the last person's logic. (And for that matter, I don't have a problem with it if it's paired with a better reason, e.g. "It's what Silas would do and it could be interesting.")
Have I made myself clear?
LuciDreamer
Maliciously Incompetent
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay, fair enough. I guess I misread what your main umbrage was. Yes, you've made yourself clear.
I apologize for butting in without having a proper understanding of the arguments being presented. I'm a bit defensive of the playerbase, I guess, and, thinking about it some more, it is clear to me that my opinions are very biased in favor of people like Karne and Nevill. Knowing this, I'm just going to let this debate go on without me. It's probably better that way.
I apologize for butting in without having a proper understanding of the arguments being presented. I'm a bit defensive of the playerbase, I guess, and, thinking about it some more, it is clear to me that my opinions are very biased in favor of people like Karne and Nevill. Knowing this, I'm just going to let this debate go on without me. It's probably better that way.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
Gentlemen (and ladies).
I think the topic is interesting and warrants discussion.
However, since I said myself that this isn't the place, I can't respond without looking like a hypocrite. Therefore, perhaps this should be taken elsewhere, so that we don't have to put our GM on the spot and make it look like he is choosing sides.
What is fun? Questing philosophies and choice design - Discussion
Come at me, bros?
I think the topic is interesting and warrants discussion.
However, since I said myself that this isn't the place, I can't respond without looking like a hypocrite. Therefore, perhaps this should be taken elsewhere, so that we don't have to put our GM on the spot and make it look like he is choosing sides.
What is fun? Questing philosophies and choice design - Discussion
Come at me, bros?
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
I mean, I probably won't participate. When I seek out arguments, I usually go to one of my friends, who are both libertarian, where I am socialist.
Then I'm done arguing for a good month or so.
Instead, I'm just going to wait with bated breath for this next update. I wouldn't worry about word count on this one, LuciD. I'm quite sure we're all going to reread it like six times anyway.
Then I'm done arguing for a good month or so.
Instead, I'm just going to wait with bated breath for this next update. I wouldn't worry about word count on this one, LuciD. I'm quite sure we're all going to reread it like six times anyway.
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I made my thoughts comprehensible to others! Success!
...Wait a second, now we're out of things to talk about until the next update...
Halowed02
Person who really needs to read things better
- Location
- Gensokyo
Gah Someone quickly think of something!
Uh
Is Nanami really worth saving? i'm Sorry Nanami.
She might claim that she's a longtime friend but that is from a different timeline (This is also true of big sis Reina). The exact things she experienced likely clash heavily with the event that led us here. We've already seen this happen upon the escape of the movie night.
Then comes the question of how we could even force such a change to all these lines. Without pissing of Hanamura or the SC.
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Do we need to change the timeline to save Nanami? If we don't, I don't see how Nanami could not be worth saving. She's still a person, after all.
[snark]Besides, she has Silas's cell phone.[/snark]